Allah is the God of the Bible -- say orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

dingoling.

Well-known member
If Jesus is really the literal son of the Father, then there would have been a time when Jesus did not exist. Fathers precede their sons, right?
No, because Jesus is eternally begotten. Jesus is eternal just as God the father and God the Holy Spirit are eternal.
 

Biblican

Well-known member

This video is a collection of clips showing some Orthodox Jewish Rabbis speak about Islam. They state their view that Allah (swt), the God of the Muslims is the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- the God of the Bible that was worshiped by the Israelites -- and that Jews and Muslims worship the same God.

I'm not saying Jews agree with Islam 100% but only that Jews in general acknowledge Allah as the God of Abraham.
I think that if a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim were all looking at a mountain and the Christian said, "I worship the God that made that mountain." The Jew and the Muslim would also have to say, "We worship the God who made that mountain." There is only one God that made that mountain. The point is these three groups all profess belief in the One True God of Abraham. We all believe different things about Him that need to be reconciled. But if we can begin by acknowledging a mutual belief in Abraham's God, it's a good place to start a peaceful dialogue.
 

BMS

Well-known member
I think that if a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim were all looking at a mountain and the Christian said, "I worship the God that made that mountain." The Jew and the Muslim would also have to say, "We worship the God who made that mountain." There is only one God that made that mountain. The point is these three groups all profess belief in the One True God of Abraham. We all believe different things about Him that need to be reconciled. But if we can begin by acknowledging a mutual belief in Abraham's God, it's a good place to start a peaceful dialogue.
Except that in the Bible the promise was for Isaac and the Jews and not for Ishmael. So the Quran of the Muslims, which came much later, is at odds with the Old Testament of the Jews and Christians.
So no absolutely not
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was/is "eternally begotten"?
Jesus said very clearly in several places that He pre-existed. If He eternally pre-existed then we don't have a Father and Son, we have two co-eternal "gods" and that is polytheism. So based on the fact that Jesus pre-existed, we have to conclude that He had a beginning at some point in infinity. This was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded for the most part. The word "begotten" is used in association with Jesus' beginning because anyone who is begotten or birthed, must come from a pre-existing substance. That substance had to have been the Father's Holy Spirit. While the early church believed and I agree with this, that Jesus always existed within the Father, His person, who He is, was birthed from the Father, "This day I have begotten you" Psalm 2:7, then eventually placed in Mary's body, which matches the Koran's view of it.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Except that in the Bible the promise was for Isaac and the Jews and not for Ishmael. So the Quran of the Muslims, which came much later, is at odds with the Old Testament of the Jews and Christians.
So no absolutely not
Like I said, they claim belief in the God of Abraham, but they believe different things about Him and, I agree, those things are at odds with what the Bible actually teaches. But I can say the same thing about many of today's denominations and cults.
 

2ndActs

New Member
Jesus said very clearly in several places that He pre-existed. If He eternally pre-existed then we don't have a Father and Son, we have two co-eternal "gods" and that is polytheism. So based on the fact that Jesus pre-existed, we have to conclude that He had a beginning at some point in infinity. This was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded for the most part. The word "begotten" is used in association with Jesus' beginning because anyone who is begotten or birthed, must come from a pre-existing substance. That substance had to have been the Father's Holy Spirit. While the early church believed and I agree with this, that Jesus always existed within the Father, His person, who He is, was birthed from the Father, "This day I have begotten you" Psalm 2:7, then eventually placed in Mary's body, which matches the Koran's view of it.
The is nothing new in your argument. It has been around along as Arianism in the 4th Century that was refuted at that time. And as he pre existed why do you presume , we have two co-eternal "gods". Its simple really in that they are two different parts of the same. No polytheism about it. Consider the sun in the sky. The sun is distinct but yet it emanates both light and heat. Two different parts of the same.
If Jesus pre-existed then obviously God pre existed. Hence there is no beginning at some point in infinity for either God The Father or God The Son. So, no. your logic is faulty.

You are also wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded. The theology you are promoting is called Arianism which did not arise until the 4th Century. Before the 4th Century the early church held the orthodox position which Christians hold today. Arianism was refuted by the scriptures themselves during the Council of Nicea. Also as I pointed our the early church did not believe in Arian theology before the 4th Century.

You are misunderstanding the term “begotten”. The word is “monogenes” with the emphasis on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. This view is compatible with Psalm 2:7 and as I said, you are wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church. This does not match the Quran.





 

BMS

Well-known member
Like I said, they claim belief in the God of Abraham, but they believe different things about Him and, I agree, those things are at odds with what the Bible actually teaches. But I can say the same thing about many of today's denominations and cults.
Or rather the Muslims dont believe in the God of Abraham. Look rather to God than Abraham
 

Biblican

Well-known member
The is nothing new in your argument. It has been around along as Arianism in the 4th Century that was refuted at that time. And as he pre existed why do you presume , we have two co-eternal "gods". Its simple really in that they are two different parts of the same. No polytheism about it. Consider the sun in the sky. The sun is distinct but yet it emanates both light and heat. Two different parts of the same.
If Jesus pre-existed then obviously God pre existed. Hence there is no beginning at some point in infinity for either God The Father or God The Son. So, no. your logic is faulty.

You are also wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church which has been eroded. The theology you are promoting is called Arianism which did not arise until the 4th Century. Before the 4th Century the early church held the orthodox position which Christians hold today. Arianism was refuted by the scriptures themselves during the Council of Nicea. Also as I pointed our the early church did not believe in Arian theology before the 4th Century.

You are misunderstanding the term “begotten”. The word is “monogenes” with the emphasis on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. This view is compatible with Psalm 2:7 and as I said, you are wrong in stating this was the orthodox doctrine of the early church. This does not match the Quran.
The doctrine that Jesus had a beginning at some point in infinity is the orthodox doctrine and is not the same thing that Arias taught. Calvin, Wesley, Justin Martyr and the fourth and fifth councils all recorded that Jesus was twice begotten, once prior to His incarnation and again through Mary. Arius' issue was with Jesus' divinity.
Jesus is the image of God, therefore as you said which is correct, Jesus is a different part of the same element. His soul is begotten as God's image and His spirit is God's spirit making them one.
The word for begotten in Hebrews 1:5 is gennao, which means 'to be born.'
 
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