Allah is the God of the Bible -- say orthodox Jewish Rabbis.

sk0rpi0n

Active member
With Islam the Holy Spirit becomes a mere angel, and God himself has no spirit as such.

Wrong. In Islam, the Spirit and angels are two different types of beings.

The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand in rows, they will not speak except for one whom the Most Merciful permits, and he will say what is correct. (78:38)

Because there are both good and evil angels, Isalm has problems identifying which angels are good and which are evil. How can one even know whether Mahomet was possessed by a good angelic spirit, or a bad one?

The idea that there are good and bad angels is a distinctly Christian one. In Islam all angels are good, so there's no question of identifying good angels from "bad" ones.

Christianity has that problem. Remember, the New Testament says "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2Corinthians 11:4).

So there is a serious issue with the credibility of the witnesses in Islam.

It's Christianity and the Bible that has that serious problem. For example, the 4 accounts of the Gospels give us 4 varying accounts of the one most important event in Jesus' earthly life, his crucifixion.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Wrong. In Islam, the Spirit and angels are two different types of beings.

The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand in rows, they will not speak except for one whom the Most Merciful permits, and he will say what is correct. (78:38)

See Rūḥ

The main this is that there is disagreement on The Holy Spirit (Arabic: رُوحُ ٱلْقُدُسِ, ruh al-qudus) mentioned four times in the Quran, where it acts as an agent of divine action or communication.

"In Sufism, rūḥ (Arabic: روح; plural arwāḥ) is a person's immortal, essential self—pneuma, i.e. the "spirit" or "soul".[1][2] The Quran itself does not describe rūḥ as the immortal self.[3] Nevertheless, in some contexts, it animates inanimate matter.[4] Further, it appears to be a metaphorical being, such as an angel.[4] In one instance, rūḥ refers to Jesus.[4]

Outside the Quran, rūḥ may also refer to a spirit that roams the earth; a ghost."

_________

In the Quran​

"The phrase rūḥ al-qudus, commonly translated as the "holy spirit" or the "spirit of holiness", occurs four times in the Quran,[8] in Quran 2:87 and 253,[12] Al-Ma'idah verse 110,[13] and An-Nahl verse 102.[14] In three instances, it is described as the means by which God "strengthened" Jesus, and in the fourth it is identified as the one brought down God's truth to his prophet.[8]

Some Muslim commentators connected this expression with the "faithful/trustworthy spirit" (ar-ruh al-amin) who is said to have brought down the Quran in verse 26:193, and identified with Gabriel.[7][8]

Other Muslim commentators viewed it as identical with the created spirit described in other Quranic verses as the means by which God brought Adam to life (e.g., 15:29), made Mary conceive Jesus [Quran 21:91] and inspired angels and prophets (e.g., 17:85).[8] The spirit who together with "the angels" descends and ascends to God ( Quran 16:2, 70:4, 97:4) was also identified with Gabriel in Quranic commentaries. Thus, the figure of Gabriel became a focus of theological reflection on the content of revelation and the nature of cognition itself, with distinctions articulated between reason, prophetic revelation, and mystical knowledge."

First it is clear that the very concept of the Holy Spirit is peripheral to Islam but central to Christianity.

Second, the Islamic concept of the Holy Spirit was borrowed from Christianity (cf. its relation to Jesus).

Whatever the Holy Spirit is in Islam, it isn't "God's Spirit indwelling the bodies of believers."

The Holy Spirit is an anachronism in Islam, because Mahomet didn't have it or teach it, whereas Jesus did have it, and taught it.


The idea that there are good and bad angels is a distinctly Christian one. In Islam all angels are good, so there's no question of identifying good angels from "bad" ones.
Demons are an anachronism in Islam, because Mahomet didn't know about them, whereas Jesus expelled them, and taught about them.

Christianity has that problem. Remember, the New Testament says "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2Corinthians 11:4).
Christianity has no problems with the Spirit world. The Islamic conception of spirits is chaotic and incoherent.

It's Christianity and the Bible that has that serious problem. For example, the 4 accounts of the Gospels give us 4 varying accounts of the one most important event in Jesus' earthly life, his crucifixion.
Irrelevant.
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
Outside the Quran, rūḥ may also refer to a spirit that roams the earth; a ghost."

Thanks for the wiki copy paste!

First it is clear that the very concept of the Holy Spirit is peripheral to Islam but central to Christianity.

Second, the Islamic concept of the Holy Spirit was borrowed from Christianity (cf. its relation to Jesus).
I thought Jesus was central to Christianity. Anyway, Christianity deems the "Holy Spirit" as the third person of the triune God. Islam rejects the trinity as well as the idea of the Holy Spirit being God. So Islam couldn't have "borrowed" the concept from Christianity.


Demons are an anachronism in Islam, because Mahomet didn't know about them, whereas Jesus expelled them, and taught about them.

"Demons" are known as "Djinns" in Islam. The Quran and the Hadith provide ample information about them. Maybe you're not familiar with the subject. But that's alright.

Christianity has no problems with the Spirit world.

Never said otherwise. But I was talking about the fact that the NT teaches that satan can disguise himself as an angel...and the Christian concept of there being good and "bad" angels. So it's Christianity that has problems identifying which angels are good and which are evil.

The Islamic conception of spirits is chaotic and incoherent.
That's your opinion.


sk0rpi0n said
It's Christianity and the Bible that has that serious problem. For example, the 4 accounts of the Gospels give us 4 varying accounts of the one most important event in Jesus' earthly life, his crucifixion.

cjab

Irrelevant.

It's absolutely relevant to the part of your post that I was quoting.
 
Last edited:

Photine

Well-known member
Thanks for the wiki copy paste!


I thought Jesus was central to Christianity. Anyway, Christianity deems the "Holy Spirit" as the third person of the triune God. Islam rejects the trinity as well as the idea of the Holy Spirit being God. So Islam couldn't have "borrowed" the concept from Christianity.


Not all Christians believe in the trinity.
 

sk0rpi0n

Active member
Not all Christians believe in the trinity.

That's good to hear. But the trinity happens to be the "mainstream" view in Christianity. The Catholics, the Protestants, The Eastern Orthodox and most other denominations accept the trinity.

CARM's official position is that God is triune. See this link:

 

Photine

Well-known member
That's good to hear. But the trinity happens to be the "mainstream" view in Christianity. The Catholics, the Protestants, The Eastern Orthodox and most other denominations accept the trinity.

CARM's official position is that God is triune. See this link:

Most of the world, Christians and Muslims included are under the sway of Satan.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Thanks for the wiki copy paste!


I thought Jesus was central to Christianity. Anyway, Christianity deems the "Holy Spirit" as the third person of the triune God. Islam rejects the trinity as well as the idea of the Holy Spirit being God. So Islam couldn't have "borrowed" the concept from Christianity.
Islam borrowed the concept of there being a "Holy Spirit" from Christianity.

As for "Christianity deems the 'Holy Spirit' as the third person of the triune God." No such terminology is found in the bible. Rather the Son and the Holy Spirit are "of God," where God is one God, the Father (Deut 6:4). Christianity is far more monotheistic than your hearsay.
"Demons" are known as "Djinns" in Islam. The Quran and the Hadith provide ample information about them. Maybe you're not familiar with the subject. But that's alright.
The point is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and given to every believer in Christ. It is not given to muslims. Muslims therefore have no way to become united with God in this life, and their whole faith and hope of salvation is based on the uncertainty of human reason.

Never said otherwise. But I was talking about the fact that the NT teaches that satan can disguise himself as an angel...and the Christian concept of there being good and "bad" angels. So it's Christianity that has problems identifying which angels are good and which are evil.
No because the Holy Spirit leads Christians into all truth, but it isn't given to muslims. So it's muslims that have the problem. of being able to distinguish good from bad.

It's absolutely relevant to the part of your post that I was quoting.
You said "The 4 accounts of (sic) the Gospels give us 4 varying accounts of the one most important event in Jesus' earthly life, his crucifixion."

Actually the four accounts in the gospels are remarkably consistent. John's gospel omits a lot of detail, but that's OK as it says it omits detail in John 22:30,31 in order to keep the gospel account to a reasonable length. John's gospel is very didactic, and so is quite different from the other accounts. The inconsistencies between them are minor, giving alternative perspectives from different witnesses or recording different events. They are generally harmonious.
 
Last edited:

akay

Member
The Trinity in the Bible:

In the “King James”7 “7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one..”. [The Bible, First Epistle of John 5:7]

In the Catholic version:

When this Bible was revised (Revised Standards Version) by 32 Christian scholars accompanied by 50 religious groups, they considered it to be a falsification, so they removed this word from the 1952 version.

Delete the Trinity from the Bible - Ahmed Didat
Trinity does not exist in the Bible ** Sheikh Ahmed Deedat


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


What Is The Shape Of Allah? Awesome Answer By Br. Imran


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\



Belief in Angels​



In common folklore, angels are thought of as good forces of nature, hologram images, or illusions. Western iconography sometimes depicts angels as fat cherubic babies or handsome young men or women with a halo surrounding their head.
In Islam, they are real created beings who will eventually suffer death, but are generally hidden from our senses. They are not divine or semi-divine, and they are not God’s associates running different districts of the universe. Also, they are not objects to be worshipped or prayed to, as they do not deliver our prayers to God. They all submit to God and carry out His commands.
In the Islamic worldview, there are no fallen angels: they are not divided into ‘good’ and ‘evil’ angels. Human beings do not become angels after death. Satan is not a fallen angel, but is one of the jinn, a creation of God parallel to human beings and angels.

Angels were created from light​

Angels were created from light before human beings were created, and thus their graphic or symbolic representation in Islamic art is rare. Nevertheless, they are generally beautiful beings with wings as described in Muslim scripture. Angels form different cosmic hierarchies and orders in the sense that they are of different size, status, and merit.


The greatest of them is Gabriel. ( the Holy Spirit ) He transmits revelations from God to the prophets

Muhammad (pbuh) actually saw him in his original form. Also, the attendants of God’s Throne are among the greatest angels. They love the believers and beseech God to forgive them their sins. They carry the Throne of God, about whom the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:


“I have been given permission to speak about one of the angels of God who carry the Throne. The distance between his ear-lobes and his shoulders is equivalent to a seven-hundred-year journey.”
Angels do not eat or drink. The angels do not get bored or tired of worshipping God:
“They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken.” (Quran 21:20)



\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\


The Quran was compiled for the following reasons. Shortly after the Prophet's death, about seven hundred Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an were martyred in the battle against Musailimah the Liar. Umar ibn al-Khattab suggested to Caliph Abu Bakr to collect the various personal copies (written on bones, leaves, scrolls, etc.) to ensure that nothing was added to or taken from the Quran. Abu Bakr appointed Zayd ibn Thabit to head a committee to accomplish this task, and this compiled the official copy. This copy was verified by the memorizers of the Quran. Ali had not disputed the authenticity of the official copy, nor had he tried to change it during the five years of his reign. Recently, copies of Quran dating back 1400 years have been found in Central Asia. When compared to the Copies of the Quran we have today, they turned out to be exactly the same.



Historical analysis of the Quran: here

The righteous people testified to the extreme precision of the compilation of the Quran and the truthfulness and rigor of its transmission. his compilation.The various parts were assembled in an extremely simple manner and without affectation.There is not in this compilation the imprint of a hand which would have brought a talent or an order.It testifies to the faith of the compiler and his devotion to what he compiles because he dared not do more than take these sacred verses and put them one after the other." As-Siddîq Abû Bakr by Mohammad Husayn Haykal, p. 332.

“The moral prescriptions of the Koran are excellent. Charity, benevolence, hospitality, moderation in desires, fidelity to the word given, love of neighbor, respect for parents, protection of widows and orphans, .» Gustave Le Bon (1884) - The civilization of the Arabs.



to everyone

watch with me here


very important



لماذا أحرق عثمان المصاحف؟ | منصور في حوار مع مسيحي متعجرف



أحاديثكم دُونت بعد مئتي سنة | منصور في حوار مع مسيحي متعجرف





Why do you read the Qur’an like singing? A man asks Brother Mansour about the Qur’an

"لماذا تقرؤون القرآن كالغناء" رجل يسأل الأخ منصور عن القرآن و اللغة العربية | ركن الخطباء مترجم

 
Last edited:

akay

Member
Christians are considered
Father is god

Christ is god

Holy Spirit is god

3 beings make up your one God.
And like or lump it, if you claim each is God (which you do), your claiming 3 God's.

"the priest keeps referring to all three entities as God. So which one is God?"


So, according to whoever, there is one god who can be three different beings at the same time?

BIBLE IS FULL OF CONFUSION BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED MANY THINGS IN IT, IMAGINE SOMEONE WITH RIGHT THINKING SAYING PEOPLE KILLED THEIR GOD, THEN WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL ? PEOPLE OR GOD?





but






the truth





Christ and the Holy Spirit are messengers of God

they have no authority except by God’s permission









God is only the Father

Christ is the Messenger of God

The Holy Spirit is an angel to transmit revelation to the prophets







God is One, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them

But people have turned away from worshiping God according to their own whims



God is one and there are not many gods

god has no wife, or biological son



Christ is the son of God in the figurative sense only because all the prophets are sons of God

The God we worship is (the Father), as Western Christians call him



But Muslims and Christians of the East, call him allah



The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One.



Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):





“They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary’ while the Messiah has said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.





They have certainly disbelieved who say, ‘Allah is the third of three.’ And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.





So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.



The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded”



[al-Maa’idah 5:72-75]



“The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, ‘Three’; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs”



[an-Nisaa’ 4:171]

Dr Zakir Naik uses Bible to prove Trinity is a Lie




Why Do Christian believe in Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, Dr Zakir Naik


 

akay

Member
the Holy Spirit leads Christians into all truth

Not the truth


What the Holy Spirit said to you?




Can you say?



Do you receive the teachings of the Holy Spirit and the face-to-face


And not in the spirit of the fictional felt inside you

These illusions are incompatible with the words of Jesus Christ peace be upon him

What goes on in your head does not count as objective communication by God. We know there are illusions, delusions, brain conditions of all sorts that don't relate to the objective world, a world that does not conform or cater to your beliefs.

Consequently, it's not enough for someone to say they have a personal relationship with God or Jesus or Holy Spiritfor that to be taken as true and factual information.
Do you accept the word of Hindus when they say they have a personal relationship with Shiva? Or do you apply a bit of healthy skepticism and ask for evidence....which, being their own subjective experience, cannot give.


The same applies to all subjective experience, including Christians with their 'personal relationship with God or Jesus.' or Holy Spirit
 

LeeH

Well-known member
And in Christianity? What do we have there? Those who claim the God of the Bible is true give no proofs either.
In Islam it is wrong to force anyone to convert. The history of Christianity is full of forced conversions. Christianity was probably spread by the sword more than Islam.
Matthew 10:14
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

Jesus is the example we have to follow, not the followers of Jesus and Jesus makes it plain in the above verse about what we do if we are not received, no where does he say put a knife to their throat and convert them.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Matthew 10:14
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

Jesus is the example we have to follow, not the followers of Jesus and Jesus makes it plain in the above verse about what we do if we are not received, no where does he say put a knife to their throat and convert them.
Yet "Christians" have often acted otherwise. Biblical and Christian are two different things it seems.
 

LeeH

Well-known member
Yet "Christians" have often acted otherwise. Biblical and Christian are two different things it seems.
The will of God is in the scriptures, followers of the word have no choice but to obey it, otherwise they can't be followers, logic dictates.

The scriptures are very clear about true conversion, God does it, forcing someone isn't what is taught, but Christianity was in the hands of the powers of this world, the organised churches and if any bloodshed or wickedness was done in God's name it was being done by people who was not following the word, they were not being faithful to God. That is the reality.

It's the teachings that you must judge by, not a person actions, they are judged also by the teachings, it's very simple to say, was this person acting and following the word of God. You can do the same for any religion or even ideology, you soon see who or what seems to be the error. If the teachings teach bloodshed, you will get bloodshed, if they teach love and peace, you should expect to get love and peace, if you get bloodshed that blood is not on the word and teachings, but on the ones who have carried it out.

God bless you Tiburon, you and your family, hope this helps.
 
Top