always amusing to see Protestants criticize the Church for doing what they also do...

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1Thess521 said:
"If someone truly believes that the Eucharist is the source and summit of their faith,"
what would happen to them of they never partook again?
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Not only would they become spiritually weakened for not receiving the Bread of Life, but they would incur the penalty of sin for not receiving Holy Communion during the Easter season.
 
pilgrim said:
Not only would they become spiritually weakened for not receiving the Bread of Life, but they would incur the penalty of sin for not receiving Holy Communion during the Easter season.
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What is the "the penalty of sin for not receiving Holy Communion during the Easter season."
 
stjerome5 said:
one example: the pope... can't have a pope... can't follow a mere human being.. and yet they have Joel Olsteen with hiss health/wealth and prsperity doctrines... they follow him closely (not all do but anyhow..)
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Joel Osteen isn't analogous to the pope. He's mostly considered a joke within orthodox Christianity. He has no authority.
stjerome5 said:
they teach Once saved always saved, yet act like Purgatory is ridiculous. The words Once saved always saved are nowhere to be seen in the Bible
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"Once saved, always saved" is your description of a Biblical teaching.

That words you made up are not found in scripture does not mean the doctrine they're used to describe is not.

Eternal security is found in scriptrure, whereas Purgatory is not only NOT found in scripture, but contradicts was IS found in scripture.
stjerome5 said:
yet they claim they "go by the Bible alone"
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No, we don't claim to go by the Bible alone. We claim that, of all of the sources and authorities God has given us, tne Bible is the highest authority and all the others must defer to it.

I get that you feel all smug now, having mocked Christians and put us in our place, but really, all you've done is shown yourself to be yet another foolish Catholic who has no clue what Christianity teaches.
 
pilgrim said:
OSAS sure sounds great but always falls apart when someone else decides that you were never saved to begin with.
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Not really.

The Biblical teaching of eternal security stands on the authority of God's Word.

The Bible also gives us criteria to know whether someone is saved.

If one is not saved, that has no bearing on the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, as one has to be "once saved" before they can be "always saved".
 
pilgrim said:
Protestant churches are very pastor- centered.
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Yeah, that's called a cult, not a "Protestant church".
pilgrim said:
If people decide they are not being fed they go elsewhere where the teaching and music is more fulfilling.
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True. Hopefully, one would have investigated a church fully before they joined. But if they join, and they find the teaching is not Biblical, they can (and should) leave and find a church where the teaching is Biblical.
pilgrim said:
The Catholic Church is Mass- centered. We are fed "the richest meat and the finest wine" (Is 25:6) despite poor homilies, bad music or lack of fellowship.
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Yeah, and the mass has led countless millions to Hell.
 
Bonnie said:
First of all, I would suspect that the majority of Protestants, if not all on here, do NOT follow Joel Osteen. I cannot stand the guy and his so-called "preaching." I feel as if I need an insulin shot, when I have listened to him on TV. One never hears law or gospel in his "sermons." No Good News. No, just speech to generate the warm fuzzies. So Osteen is nowhere near to Protestants the way the Pope is to Catholics. Osteen has zero authority over us and what we believe.

Not all Protestant churches teach "OSAS," but I fail to see how that has any relation to Purgatory. A concept can be found in the Bible without any label attached to it--like the Trinity, Virgin Birth, etc. But there is zero concept for Purgatory in the Bible. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. It is appointed for us to die once and then the judgment. (Hebrews).
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I agree if the gospel can not be preached in every corner of the world, then it is a false gospel message. This is the problem the RCs follow man and a man made religion and assume everyone else does.

Joel Osteen is American and is not a big deal in this country. Also the name, claim and grab it is not in the gospel nor is wealth teaching. I love the RCs always point to the extremes to make their points and not what most non RCs believe. I mean let us be honest they have Mel Gibson and the Kennedys as examples of RCs would they prefer we use them as examples of RCs. What about the The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is a fervently traditionalist Catholic sect: a Vatican breakaway with no official Church status, and the cause of much malcontent in Rome from https://www.salon.com/2013/11/17/meet_the_catholic_extremists_who_could_shatter_the_church/
 
pilgrim said:
Protestant churches are very pastor- centered. If people decide they are not being fed they go elsewhere where the teaching and music is more fulfilling.

The Catholic Church is Mass- centered. We are fed "the richest meat and the finest wine" (Is 25:6) despite poor homilies, bad music or lack of fellowship.
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More false claims by an RC who pretends to know about non RCs but knows nothing. No one who is truly saved is pastor centred. The mass is a joke look at the large number of evil leaders who celebrate mass. I mean for every abuse priest, from the Royal Commission we know another 7 to 8 leaders new of this sin/crime right up to the various popes.
 
pilgrim said:
Not only would they become spiritually weakened for not receiving the Bread of Life, but they would incur the penalty of sin for not receiving Holy Communion during the Easter season.
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By the way I have never been to any non RC service where the communion is not a very serious part of the service. It is a reminder of all that Jesus has done for us and there is a focus on being spiritually ready for communion. It is not taken lightly but it is not a lie as it is in the RCC.
 
stjerome5 said:
one example: the pope... can't have a pope... can't follow a mere human being.. and yet they have Joel Olsteen with hiss health/wealth and prsperity doctrines... they follow him closely (not all do but anyhow..)

they teach Once saved always saved, yet act like Purgatory is ridiculous... The words Once saved always saved are nowhere to be seen in the Bible... yet they claim they "go by the Bible alone"

please
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Osteen is as false a teacher as the Pope.
 
Mike McK said:
I don't know anyone who takes him seriously. I do know of dozens of books and ministries that have criticized and condemned him.
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I don't know anyone personally, either. Osteen makes my skin crawl.

I have heard some of his sermons picked apart on the Lutheran Issues, etc.org internet programs, by the host, an ordained pastor in our church. He does a good job, too.
 
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pilgrim said:
Well of course people say this. No one says " I left out of ignorance" or "I left because of my second marriage" or "I left because I am becoming more secular in my views" or even "I left because I like the coffee bar and the band".

Scripture speaks of apostasy in the end times, and we are in those times.
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Yes, we know. When the facts get in the way of Catholics, they resort to blaming the victims.

I defy you to prove we are in the last days. Certainly bad things are happening, but previous generations said the very same things. Plate tectonics and seafloor spreading are always at play. In fact the Bible teaches it. Floods, pestilence, volcanoes, earthquakes. Since sin entered the world.
 
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It is patently silly to equate Joel Osteen with Protestants to the Pope with his authority over Catholics. Osteen has zero authority over us! Especially since he is a false teacher!
 
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Bonnie said:
First of all, I would suspect that the majority of Protestants, if not all on here, do NOT follow Joel Osteen. I cannot stand the guy and his so-called "preaching." I feel as if I need an insulin shot, when I have listened to him on TV. One never hears law or gospel in his "sermons." No Good News. No, just speech to generate the warm fuzzies. So Osteen is nowhere near to Protestants the way the Pope is to Catholics. Osteen has zero authority over us and what we believe.

Not all Protestant churches teach "OSAS," but I fail to see how that has any relation to Purgatory. A concept can be found in the Bible without any label attached to it--like the Trinity, Virgin Birth, etc. But there is zero concept for Purgatory in the Bible. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. It is appointed for us to die once and then the judgment. (Hebrews).
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Except that there IS the concept of Purgatory taught in the Bible---when one drops the Lutheran presuppositions with which one is approaching the Bible.

The reason Protestants cannot discern Purgatory in the Bible is because of their Soteriology. Most Protestants subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory of the atonement. Here, God the Father pours out his wrath on to God the Son who takes that wrath in our place. Christ is punished in our place. Now we do not have to be punished. I have always thought this theory ridiculous.

Catholics subscribe to the Vicarious Substitution theory. It has some elements similar to the Penal Substitution Theory except that it sees the cross not as an expression of God's wrath, but God's love. Christ assumed the punishment for sin--and in so doing made the consequences for sin life giving--for those willing to offer their sufferings in union with Christ. Christ did not assume the punishment for sin so that we do not have to take any punishment but so that the punishment for sin can be redemptive. Christ paid the debt for sin that we could not pay; the debt owed to the Father. But Christ left the temporal debt in place. That means our suffering becomes redemptive. Purgatory is an extension of this concept into the afterlife for those who have not fully been purified and those who still have the temporal effects of sin on their soul.

But I DO agree with you about Joe Osteen. Osteen is really a self help motivational speaker--who uses the Bible as part of the motivational talks. Osteen is a life coach, not a minister of the Gospel. Osteen and preachers like him would not know the Gospel if it bit them.
 
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