An Apologetic Paradox

JonHawk

Well-known member
His kingdom is everlasting Dan 7:14, Rev 1:13
"I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple." Isa 6:1
‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’

He is the redeemer of Israel. Psalm 130:7-8
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
Here's the issue...

On the one hand you say "In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul essentially distinguishes between the origin and means of existence"
Correct.
On the other hand you say "Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence" (Which I agree)
Correct.
Then you go on to say "However, Paul doesn’t associate existence with God at all in this passage, but instead associates God with the origin of existence. He is pointing out that existence is a characteristic that belongs to God as the origin of existence..."

You seem to be equivocating "existence" and so the phrase "the origin of existence" is problematic to me.
Not sure what you mean by equivocating existence.
The problem I see is conflating existence with existents

"Existence" has no beginning or end, so "the origin of existence" makes no sense to say, but...
The terms "beginning" and "origin" are not synonymous especially when dealing with eternity, or eternal existence. Eternal existence belongs to God, hence God is the origin or eternity. Eternity belongs to God as the origin.
"Existents" which are particular existing things - do have beginnings and ends, and thus an "origin" can rightly be predicated of them.
This is a Non Sequitur. The origin is the same for everything, and we refer to the origin of everything as God. If you're conflating beginning with origin then you're not following my argument. Every thing that comes into existence has a beginning, i.e. its own beginning. This should not be conflated with the origin which is referred to as "God".
And so the verse should be understood as "Paul essentially distinguishing between the origin and means of existents", that is; of particular existing things for which God (who just is existence) is the "origin" of.
Okay, I see what you're saying here, and I agree. However, existence is a noun and therefore a thing. The "word" is also a noun and therefore a thing. The means is immediate. There is no other mediator, media, or medium. It is present in the world, yet it is also the means by which it is presented.

It is God's presence, which belongs to God as the origin. It isn't that God "just is existence". Christ is existence or being or life, way, metaphor, symbol, copula, window, etc. A window can be looked at, but it can also be looked through...

 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Here's the issue...

On the one hand you say "In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul essentially distinguishes between the origin and means of existence"
On the other hand you say "Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence" (Which I agree)
Rather, He himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. Acts 17:24-32
Then you go on to say "However, Paul doesn’t associate existence with God at all in this passage, but instead associates God with the origin of existence. He is pointing out that existence is a characteristic that belongs to God as the origin of existence..."
Yet for us there is only one God, the Father, Who gave us eternal life through our Lord, Jesus Christ. But some are still idolaters; (1 Cor 8:6-7)
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
They could not believe, because their gnostic pride blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts;
Isaiah said these things because he saw Jesus’ glory; he spoke about Jesus. John 12:39-41

"I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple." Isa 6:1

Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” John 9:39
The way of my God is Jesus Christ not Paul and it doesn’t seem to register for you that Jesus is the way not Paul nor you.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
They could not believe, because their gnostic pride blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts;
Isaiah said these things because he saw Jesus’ glory; he spoke about Jesus. John 12:39-41
"I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple." Isa 6:1
‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’
His kingdom is everlasting Dan 7:14, Rev 1:13
He is the redeemer of Israel. Psalm 130:7-8

Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” John 9:39

The way of my God is Jesus Christ not Paul and it doesn’t seem to register for you that Jesus is the way not Paul nor you.
Paul was not crucified for you. Christ Jesus is not divided.
Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—
Christ Jesus is the life-source of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in all things preeminent.
Christ Jesus is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Paul was not crucified for you. Christ Jesus is not divided.
Now you are getting the picture.
Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—
Same Christ who raised Jesus from the laws of the temple is the same One who did the same in me. See Matt 3:16, this is How God dopes it. Something you should consider of the ways of God.
Christ Jesus is the life-source of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, in all things preeminent.
Nope, Gods Spirit is the life source of His church. Jesus received His life source in Matt 3:16. I did the same.
Christ Jesus is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Nope. Gods Spirit in man, anointed of God, is His body, His temple, His heaven, the place God resides, See Luke 17:20-21, It is with you, or is sup[posed top be with you but obviously He isn't as He was in Jesus.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
Paul was not crucified for you. Christ Jesus is not divided.
Now you are getting the picture.
Because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead also raised us with Jesus. (2 Cor 4:14)
Same Christ who raised Jesus from the laws of the temple...
And God raised us up with Christ Jesus and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, (Eph 2:6)
Something you should consider of the ways of God.
You should consider that God has raised this Jesus to His right hand as Lord and Savior, to grant acceptance; Acts 5:31
Nope, Gods Spirit is the life source of His church. Jesus received His life source in Matt 3:16. I did the same.
And He will separate His grain and burn the gnostic straw with unquenchable fire. Matt 3:12

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:11
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation." Isaiah 28:16
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
Paul was not crucified for you. Christ Jesus is not divided.
Amen we who has received from God that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16 as God demands of you as well are not divided from the Father, only those who see His ways as gnostic are divided from the father of it all.
Because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead also raised us with Jesus. (2 Cor 4:14)
What? The One who raised Jesus from the dead?

Who do you say it was who raised Jesus from the dead? LOL
And God raised us up with Christ Jesus and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, (Eph 2:6)
Not in Christ Jesus but with Christ Jesus.
You should consider that God has raised this Jesus to His right hand as Lord and Savior, to grant acceptance; Acts 5:31
You should consider the ways of Jesus to be like him in the Father as the one God sent to lead you to Him. But because the ways of Jesus to be like him in the Father is gnostic teachings you do without the same as Jesus had in the Father.
And He will separate His grain and burn the gnostic straw with unquenchable fire. Matt 3:12
Yes and we who has received form God that what Jesus and these others received from Him has been separated and stored in His warehouse for righteousness. The sinners such as Paul in his trickeries, are burned up.

Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 2 Cor 12:16. That is why the ways of Jesus is gnostic for you. You have been tricked into a belief instead of receiving from God that what Jesus did in Matt 3:16.


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:11
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation." Isaiah 28:16
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Who do you say it was who raised Jesus from the dead? LOL
God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph 2
Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 2 Cor 12:16. That is why the ways of Jesus is gnostic for you. You have been tricked into a belief
Now that faith has come you are all one in Christ Jesus, according to the promise. Gal 3:25-29
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph 2

Now that faith has come you are all one in Christ Jesus, according to the promise. Gal 3:25-29
My life is in Christ -- yours is in Pauls.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
His righteousness is credited to us also who believe in God, Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead; Rom 4:24-25
My life is in Christ -- yours is in Pauls.
You are a funny gnostic.

For the life which I now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; Gal 2:20-21
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
His righteousness is credited to us also who believe in God, Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead; Rom 4:24-25
Actually we who has received His gift of Himself to be in me as He was in Jesus raises us all from that dead state of spirit.
You are a funny gnostic.
Yes His ways are hilarious for you I agree.
For the life which I now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; Gal 2:20-21
The life I now live is the same life Jesus received from the Father and now walk as He walks in His same light just as Jesus did after Matt 3:16 that you claim His ways to be is gnosticism.

I really do understand why His ways are gnostic for you.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
His righteousness is credited to us who believe in God, Who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead; Rom 4:24-25
Gary Mac said:
My life is in Christ -- yours is in Pauls.
You are a funny gnostic.

For the life which I now live I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; Gal 2:20-21
Actually we who has received His gift of Himself to be in me as He was in Jesus raises us all from that dead state of spirit.

I really do understand why His ways are gnostic for you.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36
Yes and some here accuse his ways as gnosticism from a spirit of atheism.
Some here deny the Son of God and like to pretend they were spiritually enlightened at the tree of knowledge, and blow hot air.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 5:6-8
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
Some here deny the Son of God and like to pretend they were spiritually enlightened at the tree of knowledge, and blow hot air.
You got that right for these accuse His ways as gnosticism.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 5:6-8
That is why I follow the ways of Jesus who was without sin instead of the one who teaches opposite from Jesus to be a sinner.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
That is why I follow the ways of Jesus who was without sin instead of the one who teaches opposite from Jesus to be a sinner.
Now you're getting a bit shifty since you previously stated that jesus was a sinner until he had an epiphany after looking in the mirror.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Heb 1:8
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
Now you're getting a bit shifty since you previously stated that jesus was a sinner until he had an epiphany after looking in the mirror.
No' you made a false accusation, a lie that you claim Jesus was the sinner not I. Jesus was like myself in the Father, pure holy and without sin., you just dont believe him for to you his ways in the Father is gnosticism as you keep accusing his ways of which makes him a sinner to you.
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
Amen and I am His son, you are supposed to be yourself but you aren't for that is gnostic teachings for you.
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Heb 1:8
Pauls righteousness was the sinner that he was trying to justify his sin by using Christs name as a scape goat for his own iniquities. So do you the same for the ways od Jesus is gnosticism for you as you keep stating His yes is.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
No' you made a false accusation, a lie that you claim Jesus was the sinner not I. Jesus was like myself in the Father, pure holy and without sin., you just dont believe him for to you his ways in the Father is gnosticism as you keep accusing his ways of which makes him a sinner to you.

Amen and I am His son, you are supposed to be yourself but you aren't for that is gnostic teachings for you.

Pauls righteousness was the sinner that he was trying to justify his sin by using Christs name as a scape goat for his own iniquities. So do you the same for the ways od Jesus is gnosticism for you as you keep stating His yes is.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
No' you made a false accusation, a lie that you claim Jesus was the sinner not I. Jesus was like myself in the Father, pure holy and without sin., you just dont believe him for to you his ways in the Father is gnosticism ....
We've been down this road and you conceded that in your gnostic fables jesus is like any other man.
And I know this hard for a gnostic to grasp but all men are fallen, separated from God, until they're reconciled through Christ Jesus.
At that time you were without Christ Jesus, you were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
For He Himself is our peace,... He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Eph 2
 
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