An Apologetic Paradox

shnarkle

Well-known member
The strongest argument for and against God’s existence is the same argument. I’ll provide two examples from the bible.

In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul essentially distinguishes between the origin and means of existence. Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence. Therefore, existence is eternal which is one of the most notable characteristics of God.

However, Paul doesn’t associate existence with God at all in this passage, but instead associates God with the origin of existence. He is pointing out that existence is a characteristic that belongs to God as the origin of existence. Grammatically speaking it is the difference between the Verb to Be and the Genitive of Possession. In this case, being is an attribute of God rather than who God is.

However, logic points out that the origin of existence cannot exist without redefining the term. Therefore, the origin doesn’t exist. Moreover, by definition, nothing doesn’t have a beginning or end either.

The other passage is from the introduction to John’s gospel where he begins with “in the beginning was the word”. This seems a bit counterintuitive. Wouldn’t it make more sense to begin with “in the beginning was god”? That would only make sense if there was a god to begin with. Since there is no beginning or end to existence but only a beginning and end to things that exist, it stands to reason that God cannot objectively exist.

But then John adds, “and the word was with god”. Conceptually speaking, you can’t have something without nothing.

John follows this with, “and the word was god”. We might just as easily put it this way: and the word was 'god'. In other words, there is no referent for the word “God” other than the word itself. If this is the case, then it is only the word itself through which God can be manifest. However, the “way” or means by which the origin is manifest is clearly distinguished from the origin.

If God is One as the bible indicates, then God is indivisible. This is where the word “individual” comes from. Therefore, we are operating under a set of false assumptions, i.e. we are separate individuals (This is also an oxymoron which proves it’s a false assumption).

Therefore, the only being who could possess life or existence is God, which doesn’t prove God’s existence except insofar as existence belongs to God. In other words, it points out that God is the origin of existence which doesn't actually exist.
 
The strongest argument for and against God’s existence is the same argument. I’ll provide two examples from the bible.

In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul essentially distinguishes between the origin and means of existence. Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence. Therefore, existence is eternal which is one of the most notable characteristics of God.

However, Paul doesn’t associate existence with God at all in this passage, but instead associates God with the origin of existence. He is pointing out that existence is a characteristic that belongs to God as the origin of existence. Grammatically speaking it is the difference between the Verb to Be and the Genitive of Possession. In this case, being is an attribute of God rather than who God is.

However, logic points out that the origin of existence cannot exist without redefining the term. Therefore, the origin doesn’t exist. Moreover, by definition, nothing doesn’t have a beginning or end either.

The other passage is from the introduction to John’s gospel where he begins with “in the beginning was the word”. This seems a bit counterintuitive. Wouldn’t it make more sense to begin with “in the beginning was god”? That would only make sense if there was a god to begin with. Since there is no beginning or end to existence but only a beginning and end to things that exist, it stands to reason that God cannot objectively exist.

But then John adds, “and the word was with god”. Conceptually speaking, you can’t have something without nothing.

John follows this with, “and the word was god”. We might just as easily put it this way: and the word was 'god'. In other words, there is no referent for the word “God” other than the word itself. If this is the case, then it is only the word itself through which God can be manifest. However, the “way” or means by which the origin is manifest is clearly distinguished from the origin.

If God is One as the bible indicates, then God is indivisible. This is where the word “individual” comes from. Therefore, we are operating under a set of false assumptions, i.e. we are separate individuals (This is also an oxymoron which proves it’s a false assumption).

Therefore, the only being who could possess life or existence is God, which doesn’t prove God’s existence except insofar as existence belongs to God. In other words, it points out that God is the origin of existence which doesn't actually exist.

The strongest evidence for God is a true believer in whom God abides and through whom He shines His light into the world.
 
The strongest argument for and against God’s existence is the same argument. I’ll provide two examples from the bible.

In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul essentially distinguishes between the origin and means of existence. Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence. Therefore, existence is eternal which is one of the most notable characteristics of God.

However, Paul doesn’t associate existence with God at all in this passage, but instead associates God with the origin of existence. He is pointing out that existence is a characteristic that belongs to God as the origin of existence. Grammatically speaking it is the difference between the Verb to Be and the Genitive of Possession. In this case, being is an attribute of God rather than who God is.

However, logic points out that the origin of existence cannot exist without redefining the term. Therefore, the origin doesn’t exist. Moreover, by definition, nothing doesn’t have a beginning or end either.

The other passage is from the introduction to John’s gospel where he begins with “in the beginning was the word”. This seems a bit counterintuitive. Wouldn’t it make more sense to begin with “in the beginning was god”? That would only make sense if there was a god to begin with. Since there is no beginning or end to existence but only a beginning and end to things that exist, it stands to reason that God cannot objectively exist.

But then John adds, “and the word was with god”. Conceptually speaking, you can’t have something without nothing.

John follows this with, “and the word was god”. We might just as easily put it this way: and the word was 'god'. In other words, there is no referent for the word “God” other than the word itself. If this is the case, then it is only the word itself through which God can be manifest. However, the “way” or means by which the origin is manifest is clearly distinguished from the origin.

If God is One as the bible indicates, then God is indivisible. This is where the word “individual” comes from. Therefore, we are operating under a set of false assumptions, i.e. we are separate individuals (This is also an oxymoron which proves it’s a false assumption).

Therefore, the only being who could possess life or existence is God, which doesn’t prove God’s existence except insofar as existence belongs to God. In other words, it points out that God is the origin of existence which doesn't actually exist.
The strongest evidence if one is of God or not is are you like him as Jesus was like Him, perfect as He is perfect as Jesus was perfected in Him. He in you and you inHim as one as Jesus was one in Him in John 17, and walk as He walks in His same light with the same signs following, and have Gods same mind as Jesus received from God in Matt 3:16.

Everyone knows very well if they are like the Father as Jesus was like Him and walk as He walks as Jesus did or not as God demands of you if you are to be of Him as Jesus was of Him no different at all.
 
The strongest evidence for God is a true believer in whom God abides and through whom He shines His light into the world.
I would add to this the Jewish people (I know a lot of people like to say they do not exist) but the scriptures are clear they must continue to exist. When you look at how many times evil has tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and how many times it has failed. You have to ask why they still exist. There are no Canaanites, Hittites etc. But the Jewish people are still here. Josh McDowell has an interesting post on this topic.

But I will add I just look at roos playing and fighting, the sunset, the amazing land formations and many other things and know that God exists. I go to a back beach and watch the waves pounding into the cliffs and the spray flying higher than the cliffs and see the power of God.
 
I would add to this the Jewish people (I know a lot of people like to say they do not exist) but the scriptures are clear they must continue to exist. When you look at how many times evil has tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and how many times it has failed. You have to ask why they still exist. There are no Canaanites, Hittites etc. But the Jewish people are still here. Josh McDowell has an interesting post on this topic.

But I will add I just look at roos playing and fighting, the sunset, the amazing land formations and many other things and know that God exists. I go to a back beach and watch the waves pounding into the cliffs and the spray flying higher than the cliffs and see the power of God.
But to know the creator personally as Jesus came to know Him in Matt 3;16 is the only way one will know who God is is with God Himself manifest in you and open up who He is and all of His heaven to you. Jesus referred to this personal information from God to meet Him as born again, a renewing of the mind to think in Gods terms and see things as He sees it.

Jesus didnt think as the Jews after Matt 3:16; for he taught in their temples even from a young age, but the moment God revealed, manifest, in Jesus Himself and His ways, the ones Jesus once taught in those temples, are the very ones who had His crucified for blaspheme.

Unless the same God who was manifest in Jesus is manifest in you one cant know who God is at all. And it isn't what most think of in a God. Asl Jesus for he taught the gof of the jews for a long time then taught the ways of God by God Himself be his own mind, the mind of Christ to be Gods anointed.

Our churches, denominations, today are no different from the Jews for all of these are of the laws for their beliefs just different laws they have created to regulate their gods for what they would have him be.

One cant know who God is at all least He come to you and be in you and you in Him as one, not Even Jesus could escape this fact if he was to know God at all. Until the same happens in a man then God is just an entity for speculation. for He will come to anyone who will receive Him in their own being. Only then can walk as He walks in His same light and be like Him instead of the laws that govern a belief about a god as is common among our churches, Jew or gentile.
 
Logically speaking, there can be no beginning or end to existence.
You exist, but you have not always existed. You and I are created creatures. We are not the uncreated Creator who created all that has been made. You exist and you had a beginning. If we die in Christ then we will be resurrected immortal. Otherwise, there is an end to every creature that was ever created. Logically speaking, the quoted statement is wholly incorrect and I do hope it is never said to the unregenerate as a defense of the gospel.
 
Gnostic Cosmology.
Father God, Spirit and is present in Physical World (Kenoma) as Word, Logos, Christ. So, communes with humanity as Christ. Father - Christ - Humanity. I understand Christ Jesus as example of human being possessed by Christ Spirit.
 
Gnostic Cosmology.
Father God, Spirit and is present in Physical World (Kenoma) as Word, Logos, Christ. So, communes with humanity as Christ. Father - Christ - Humanity. I understand Christ Jesus as example of human being possessed by Christ Spirit.
That is a heretical position.
 
That is a heretical position.
It is for one who does not know the Christ which simply means Gods anointed and either you are anointed of God who is a Spirit and that Spirit is Love and man is anointed with it.

Christ is not a nown Christ was not Jesus last name, Christ was the disposition of Jesus just as it is with us all who has received from God His anointing to be like Him and in His same image which is Love,Holy Love or Holy Spirit it is called in the book. Jesus lame to know God and His heaven when He was about 30 when God came and opens up who He is as he does onus all who will receive His Christ, anointing.

Paul enters the term Christ at Antioch and before that description the same was referred to as Saints.
 
It is for one who does not know the Christ which simply means Gods anointed and either you are anointed of God who is a Spirit and that Spirit is Love and man is anointed with it.

Christ is not a nown Christ was not Jesus last name, Christ was the disposition of Jesus just as it is with us all who has received from God His anointing to be like Him and in His same image which is Love,Holy Love or Holy Spirit it is called in the book. Jesus lame to know God and His heaven when He was about 30 when God came and opens up who He is as he does onus all who will receive His Christ, anointing.

Paul enters the term Christ at Antioch and before that description the same was referred to as Saints.
Correct. Paul uses many terns, Christ, Lord, Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ depending on audience spiritiual level.
 
It is for one who does not know the Christ...
No, it is a heretical position for everyone. Jesus was not merely a human being and he was not merely a human being specially anointed with the Christ Spirit. That is heretical. Jesus is God. His Spirit and his Father's Spirit are the same. He was with God in the beginning as God (John 1:1).
Gnostic Cosmology.
Father God, Spirit and is present in Physical World (Kenoma) as Word, Logos, Christ.
According to John 1:1 the Logos was the Logos as the Logos in the beginning, before the world was created.
Not in my book.
What's your book, because there is no such thing as a "Christ Spirit" in the Bible.


The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gnosticism, Arianism, Socianism, and all the other heresies asserting Jesus was just a man or a created creature lesser than God that was specially endowed with a special spirit by God were all refuted centuries ago and they have all remained heresies since then. Modern versions like the contemporary Gnostics, Universalists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Latter-Day Saints are just as heretical as they were in their earlier iterations.

Do not make the mistake of thinking his anointing began at his baptism when the Spirit of God came upon him and his Father testified to his Sonship. The man was conceived by the Holy Spirit long before his adult baptism and he was the Logos of God that is God in the beginning long before his Holy Spirit conception. He simply did not consider equality with God something to be grasped and instead in humility emptied himself and took on the form of a bondservant (even though he had no bond, debt, transgression or sin) and being made in the likeness of men, being found in appearance as a man he acted in obedience to the point of torturous death on the cross.

That is what The Book states.
 
No, it is a heretical position for everyone. Jesus was not merely a human being and he was not merely a human being specially anointed with the Christ Spirit. That is heretical. Jesus is God. His Spirit and his Father's Spirit are the same. He was with God in the beginning as God (John 1:1).

According to John 1:1 the Logos was the Logos as the Logos in the beginning, before the world was created.

What's your book, because there is no such thing as a "Christ Spirit" in the Bible.


The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gnosticism, Arianism, Socianism, and all the other heresies asserting Jesus was just a man or a created creature lesser than God that was specially endowed with a special spirit by God were all refuted centuries ago and they have all remained heresies since then. Modern versions like the contemporary Gnostics, Universalists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Latter-Day Saints are just as heretical as they were in their earlier iterations.

Do not make the mistake of thinking his anointing began at his baptism when the Spirit of God came upon him and his Father testified to his Sonship. The man was conceived by the Holy Spirit long before his adult baptism and he was the Logos of God that is God in the beginning long before his Holy Spirit conception. He simply did not consider equality with God something to be grasped and instead in humility emptied himself and took on the form of a bondservant (even though he had no bond, debt, transgression or sin) and being made in the likeness of men, being found in appearance as a man he acted in obedience to the point of torturous death on the cross.

That is what The Book states.
There was ONLY Spiritual world. And visible derived from invisible when the lower kenoma was structured for a purpose. Heb. 11:3.
 
There was ONLY Spiritual world. And visible derived from invisible when the lower kenoma was structured for a purpose. Heb. 11:3.
That is simply incorrect.

God is invisible, but God is not only invisible. When Paul states God is invisible (Col. 1:15) he is not stating God cannot be looked upon to see any mass He may or may not have. That would directly contradict the premise of no one being able to look upon Him and live. If He is not visible, then no looking upon Him would be possible. God is not visible from our position here on earth because God exists external to creation, not because light does not reflect off the surface of His being. Were that the case then there would be no way Moses could look upon the remnant of God's glory as He passed. Furthermore, the distinctions the ancients drew between matter and everything else (like "spiritual" or "spiritual" was wrong. The Gnostic belief the physical was less than, or a lower sphere or of less worth that the spiritual is thoroughly contradicted by the Bible. When God got done creating, He explicitly stated everything He had made was very good. The physical was good. There was nothing not-good in the physical.

And you can repeat the statement about kenoma again and again and again but argumentum ad nauseam is fallacious. Repetition does not make something true.
There was ONLY Spiritual world. And visible derived from invisible when the lower kenoma was structured for a purpose. Heb. 11:3.
Well..... Let's take a look at what Hebrews 1:3 actually states, shall we?

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Things not being visible does not mean they were invisible. From my position here in the state of Virginia on the eastern side of the US I cannot see anyone currently sitting in Japan or Ghana. They are not visible to me. That does not mean they are invisible. Furthermore, there is no mention of any "Spiritual world" in the verse. What the verse states is that "the worlds" plural were prepared by the word of God. That would include BOTH the spiritual and the physical, not "ONLY Spiritual world." In other words, if "your book" is the Bible then your book plainly states several things directly contradictory to your posts.
Gnostic Cosmology.
Father God, Spirit and is present in Physical World (Kenoma) as Word, Logos, Christ. So, communes with humanity as Christ. Father - Christ - Humanity. I understand Christ Jesus as example of human being possessed by Christ Spirit.
That is heretical.

God is present in the world He created in many ways, not just as Logos and/or Christ. You may understand Christ Jesus as [an] example of [a] human being possessed by the Christ Spirit but there is no such thing as a Christ Spirit in the Bible and Jesus is not merely a human being. The word "Christ" simply means "anointed one" and many people in the Bible were anointed by God, but there is only one Jesus because Jesus alone was with God in the beginning as God, Jesus alone was conceived monogene sarx egenetos* by the Separate and Sacred Spirit of God, and he alone was there when the events prior to his incarnation occurred. He was there. No one anointed with the Spirit of God today, the Spirit of God that is the Spirit if Christ, can claim any of those conditions.

The statements in that post are heretical. They directly contradict the plain reading of scripture, have never been held as a mainstream orthodox position within Christianity, and were refuted as heresies centuries ago. This is evidenced by the scriptures I posted being read plainly and the fact you've used scripture by adding to it things it does not actually state. This is objectively evidenced by the use of Hebrews 11:3 just posted. It does not state what it was claimed to say. Furthermore, logic precludes things like people seeing God if He's invisible and angels (who are spirits) often being visibly seen in the physical world throughout the Bible.

  • Direct contradiction with scripture read plainly as written.
  • Objectively observable liberties taken with scripture to make it say things it nowhere states.
  • Lack of reason.

God is Spirit and God is observable. He simply isn't visible from our position on earth in the physical world, The spiritual world is also a world created by God that on occasion is also made visible. On the occasions where that happens in the Bible, we immediately learn the physical is all around us, not separated from the physical and it is not that it is invisible in the sense of never being visible, light always passing through it and never reflecting off of it, or it never having mass or physical attributes but invisible only in the sense we can't normally observe it.


The statements in that post are false, lacking in scriptural integrity, and heretical.







*monogenes sarx egenetos = the single-sourced or one-origin made flesh
 
No, it is a heretical position for everyone. Jesus was not merely a human being and he was not merely a human being specially anointed with the Christ Spirit. That is heretical. Jesus is God. His Spirit and his Father's Spirit are the same. He was with God in the beginning as God (John 1:1).

According to John 1:1 the Logos was the Logos as the Logos in the beginning, before the world was created.

What's your book, because there is no such thing as a "Christ Spirit" in the Bible.


The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gnosticism, Arianism, Socianism, and all the other heresies asserting Jesus was just a man or a created creature lesser than God that was specially endowed with a special spirit by God were all refuted centuries ago and they have all remained heresies since then. Modern versions like the contemporary Gnostics, Universalists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Latter-Day Saints are just as heretical as they were in their earlier iterations.

Do not make the mistake of thinking his anointing began at his baptism when the Spirit of God came upon him and his Father testified to his Sonship. The man was conceived by the Holy Spirit long before his adult baptism and he was the Logos of God that is God in the beginning long before his Holy Spirit conception. He simply did not consider equality with God something to be grasped and instead in humility emptied himself and took on the form of a bondservant (even though he had no bond, debt, transgression or sin) and being made in the likeness of men, being found in appearance as a man he acted in obedience to the point of torturous death on the cross.

That is what The Book states.
Bible is not a piece of concrete block sitting between two book ends, "But earnestly desire the higher gifts..."
 
There was ONLY Spiritual world. And visible derived from invisible when the lower kenoma was structured for a purpose. Heb. 11:3.
"5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,


“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
 
Bible is not a piece of concrete block sitting between two book ends,
Red herring. No one said it was and the comment has no place in reasonable, rational cogent discourse between us.
"But earnestly desire the higher gifts..."
The evidence demonstrates that is untrue of the beliefs being discussed. There's nothing "higher" about those statements and no earnest desire of anything higher, especially not cogent discourse, is evidenced in the posts since those beliefs were stated. Nothing I posted was shown incorrect, most of what I received was shown incorrect, and now the conversation has turned to red herrings and non sequiturs.


Which I am guessing is an indication there's little or no interest in further discussing how and why the original statements are heretical.
 
Red herring. No one said it was and the comment has no place in reasonable, rational cogent discourse between us.

The evidence demonstrates that is untrue of the beliefs being discussed. There's nothing "higher" about those statements and no earnest desire of anything higher, especially not cogent discourse, is evidenced in the posts since those beliefs were stated. Nothing I posted was shown incorrect, most of what I received was shown incorrect, and now the conversation has turned to red herrings and non sequiturs.


Which I am guessing is an indication there's little or no interest in further discussing how and why the original statements are heretical.
I received higher gifts. I know that.
 
I received higher gifts. I know that.

New International Version
What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

Berean Study Bible
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
And we all having been unveiled in face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit.
 
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I received higher gifts. I know that.
Perhaps. I hope that is true but it is not evidenced in these posts, and that begs the question, "what good is a gift that is not evidenced?"

Matthew 5:14-16
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

Do you think your posts correctly evidence obedience to that standard and the claim of higher gifts? Red herrings are not something the Holy Spirit inspires or empowers. The Spirit may be extra-rational but it is never irrational. That comment about concrete blocks undermined any claim you might ever have of higher gifts here in this thread.

The matter in question has to do with the statements found in post 7, which states,
Gnostic Cosmology.
Father God, Spirit and is present in Physical World (Kenoma) as Word, Logos, Christ. So, communes with humanity as Christ. Father - Christ - Humanity. I understand Christ Jesus as example of human being possessed by Christ Spirit.
....and then in the subsequent posts I read,
Not in my book.

There was ONLY Spiritual world. And visible derived from invisible when the lower kenoma was structured for a purpose. Heb. 11:3.

Bible is not a piece of concrete block sitting between two book ends, "But earnestly desire the higher gifts..."

"5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” 8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

I received higher gifts. I know that.
Do you know and understand the language of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is uniquely New Testament and inherently limited to the matters of soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology? Outside of those domains we do not find the language used in scripture. If you're using the concepts of Valentinius (one of the Gnostics who leveraged the concept of kenoma) then his hermeneutic is deeply flawed, and as I have stated previously deemed heretical. Give Martyr and Irenaeus a read because they addressed the Valentinian iteration of Gnosticism and his views of kenoma.

You've gone on record stating "your book" says post 7 is not heresy but you've failed to answer which book is your book. The actual text of Hebrews 11:3 can be objectively shown NOT to say what you claimed it said. The concrete block comment is not only a red herring, it's non sequitur and as I just said the Holy Spirit NEVER speaks fallaciously. The comment about higher gifts (another red herring non sequitur) is implicitly self-aggrandizing at the expense of another and without elevating Christ. The Psalm 40/Hebrews 10 quote is completely misrepresented.

Not only does it not prove post 7 orthodox, it does not evidence higher gifts. It does avoid the replies brought to bear upon it and completely ignores the op.

I'll be moving on now.
 
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