An argument from absence: Church Doctrine = Church website

Aaron32

Active member
That's a quote from the KFD. Prove it as doctrine of the Church, and then I'll be happy to discuss it.

I have proven it. It is on your church's official website.

This is like saying:
“Do you believe God’s throne resides near Kolob? The Bible doesn’t it doesn’t. So in a way, the Bible supports this.”

This is the reasoning our critics use to declare what is official doctrine of the Church.

If “the website” = “doctrine” then there should be a statement establish that as fact. Otherwise, we are left to only trust what is being stated on the subject:

 

Theo1689

Well-known member
This is like saying:
“Do you believe God’s throne resides near Kolob? The Bible doesn’t it doesn’t. So in a way, the Bible supports this.”

This is the reasoning our critics use to declare what is official doctrine of the Church.

If “the website” = “doctrine” then there should be a statement establish that as fact. Otherwise, we are left to only trust what is being stated on the subject:


Of course, this poster is missing the forest for the trees.
As long as Mormons agree that they believe the Bible, the source of any other beliefs is IRRELEVANT.

The question is, what do you believe (regardless of its "source").

If it's consistent with what Christianity has taught for 2000 years, then why did you need to start a "new church", rather than simply sticking with Christianity. So the question is, what do you believe that is different than what Christianity teaches?:

1) multiple gods? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
2) works need for salvation? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
3) teenaged, unmarried elders and deacons? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
4) priesthood? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
5) marriage continuing after death? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
6) polygamy? - CONTRADICTED by the Bible.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
This is like saying:
“Do you believe God’s throne resides near Kolob? The Bible doesn’t it doesn’t. So in a way, the Bible supports this.”

This is the reasoning our critics use to declare what is official doctrine of the Church.

If “the website” = “doctrine” then there should be a statement establish that as fact. Otherwise, we are left to only trust what is being stated on the subject:

Why would your church have stuff on its website that it does not teach or believe? Other Mormons on here have told me that if I want to knkw what their church believes and teaches, go to the official LDS church website....but even when I quote directly from it to prove it does teach what I claimed it does, I am still told I am wrong! Darned if I do, darned if don't...

Maybe the real problem is that you just cannot believe your church teaches what it does....you love your church and desperately want it to be true and teach the truth...but when shown irrefutable evidence for what it does teach, maybe turn a blind eye to it...well, I can understand that....you love your church and have happy memories of being in it, the good times, and the people you have known in it. But you must ask yourself some hard questions--what do you love more, your church? Or the truth? Whom do you love more? Joseph Smith? Or Jesus Christ, the TRUE one of the Bible?
 
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organgrinder

Active member
Aaron..... it is as Bonnie has said. we have been required to go to the LDS website for official positions and doctrine. Need to do that now that McConkie has been thrown under the bus with "Mormon Doctrine". McConkie's book was as close to a Catholic catechism as you had. Catholics go to the catechism to see what they believe and why. Mormons went to McConkie. Now Mormons and non-Mormons need to go the LDS website.

There is no other official site which to turn, especially since we are also told that the Brigham Young and Smith's writings aren't proper either. So...where does the seek or Mormon go to get definitive answers?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Aaron..... it is as Bonnie has said. we have been required to go to the LDS website for official positions and doctrine.
Sadly, even with the "official position and doctrine" you all still can't get it right. You all can't get it right even when we point out where you went wrong. Clearly, just as it is with the Bible, it doesn't matter what's actually written, you all still manage to convoluted the material twisting it to fit your preconceived notions.
 

Magdalena

Active member
Sadly, even with the "official position and doctrine" you all still can't get it right. You all can't get it right even when we point out where you went wrong. Clearly, just as it is with the Bible, it doesn't matter what's actually written, you all still manage to convoluted the material twisting it to fit your preconceived notions.
I don’t see you pointing out where it’s wrong. I just see you pointing fingers at people.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Sadly, even with the "official position and doctrine" you all still can't get it right. You all can't get it right even when we point out where you went wrong. Clearly, just as it is with the Bible, it doesn't matter what's actually written, you all still manage to convoluted the material twisting it to fit your preconceived notions.
OH! You mean, the way you get it right and don't twist the Bible when it says clearly that Moses died and was buried....? And where it clearly tells us how God created Adam and Eve...? You get that correct, too, and don't twist what the Bible actually says?

And just where exactly have we gone wrong with Mormon doctrines? I have seen others on here accuse us of that, but when we ask for specifics, we get bupkiss. So, here is your chance to set us straight!
 
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Aaron32

Active member
Why would your church have stuff on its website that it does not teach or believe? Other Mormons on here have told me that if I want to knkw what their church believes and teaches, go to the official LDS church website....but even when I quote directly from it to prove it does teach what I claimed it does, I am still told I am wrong! Darned if I do, darned if don't...
Again, you have to understand strawman fallacies and hierarchies of truths.
You also have to understand Mormonism. It’s not like any other Christian church. It’s not “top down” as it is made out to be.

Bruce R. McConkie:
“There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines,…wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!” (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

Maybe the real problem is that you just cannot believe your church teaches what it does....you love your church and desperately want it to be true and teach the truth...but when shown irrefutable evidence for what it does teach, maybe turn a blind eye to it...well, I can understand that....you love your church and have happy memories of being in it, the good times, and the people you have known in it. But you must ask yourself some hard questions--what do you love more, your church? Or the truth? Whom do you love more? Joseph Smith? Or Jesus Christ, the TRUE one of the Bible?
Bonnie, this will be my last writing on this forum, save a zoom call to my Bishop per Redeemed’s request, or if the Spirit prompts me to do otherwise.
Why I believe isn’t your concern. I am evidence to challenge your own beliefs. You can choose true rely on flesh and blood, and the arm of the flesh, or you can decide to “do the work” study, ponder, and pray as I did, to see how it all fits together and nothing else makes sense. Bible based Christianity is confusion to me.

I received my “baptism by fire” when I was 6 years old. 6! And it was spawned by mere curiosity. My parents weren’t actually all that religious. I wanted to know if the BoM was true. I got my answer and I never forgot it.
When I was in high school. I was a victim of Mormon culture and religiousity. I was unfairly treated and judged. I had every excuse to leave the church. But, during that time, when I was trying to figure it all out, Jesus Christ appeared to me in a dream, and I felt a deeper love than I believe is possible in mortality. I knew that He was my Savior, and that “the great and spacious building” will always persecute the righteous. The experience planted a seed to help me see Mormonism “culture” vs the the true religion. Tares are always among the wheat.
The experiences go on, but in the words of Paul:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)
You can try and rationalize my behavior. You can call me a “nut job”, whatever you have to do to feel good about your own beliefs, but that is your judgment. And I care about God’s opinion more.
I believe God doesn’t teach us truth out of our own intellectual exercise, but we are actually responsible for relating our truth, just as prophets in times of old.
You and I will one day stand in judgment. I love you as a sister, Bonnie! I think we’re kindred spirits. I will be on your side on the day of judgment.
The choice is binary, one of us is the “honorable [man/woman] of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.” Well, let’s just accept that, and jointly love God and our fellow man. I’m done arguing it. God helped me see that. He really is the only teacher that can help us understand anything.
Now I must go make a more tangible difference in feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked. Take care, Bonnie! God bless!
 

Magdalena

Active member
Again, you have to understand strawman fallacies and hierarchies of truths.
You also have to understand Mormonism. It’s not like any other Christian church. It’s not “top down” as it is made out to be.

Bruce R. McConkie:
“There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines,…wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!” (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.


Bonnie, this will be my last writing on this forum, save a zoom call to my Bishop per Redeemed’s request, or if the Spirit prompts me to do otherwise.
Why I believe isn’t your concern. I am evidence to challenge your own beliefs. You can choose true rely on flesh and blood, and the arm of the flesh, or you can decide to “do the work” study, ponder, and pray as I did, to see how it all fits together and nothing else makes sense. Bible based Christianity is confusion to me.

I received my “baptism by fire” when I was 6 years old. 6! And it was spawned by mere curiosity. My parents weren’t actually all that religious. I wanted to know if the BoM was true. I got my answer and I never forgot it.
When I was in high school. I was a victim of Mormon culture and religiousity. I was unfairly treated and judged. I had every excuse to leave the church. But, during that time, when I was trying to figure it all out, Jesus Christ appeared to me in a dream, and I felt a deeper love than I believe is possible in mortality. I knew that He was my Savior, and that “the great and spacious building” will always persecute the righteous. The experience planted a seed to help me see Mormonism “culture” vs the the true religion. Tares are always among the wheat.
The experiences go on, but in the words of Paul:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)
You can try and rationalize my behavior. You can call me a “nut job”, whatever you have to do to feel good about your own beliefs, but that is your judgment. And I care about God’s opinion more.
I believe God doesn’t teach us truth out of our own intellectual exercise, but we are actually responsible for relating our truth, just as prophets in times of old.
You and I will one day stand in judgment. I love you as a sister, Bonnie! I think we’re kindred spirits. I will be on your side on the day of judgment.
The choice is binary, one of us is the “honorable [man/woman] of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.” Well, let’s just accept that, and jointly love God and our fellow man. I’m done arguing it. God helped me see that. He really is the only teacher that can help us understand anything.
Now I must go make a more tangible difference in feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked. Take care, Bonnie! God bless!

No one is calling you a “nut job” or anything else.

Your experience when you were 6 is so similar to mine. I knew and loved Christ very early. And I equated those feelings and witness with mormonism. Much much later, I realized it was just about Christ. I believe that witness ultimately helped me recognize the false prophets of mormonism, because I realized that what they taught didn’t come from Him.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Why I believe isn’t your concern.

Actually, it is.

Your church organizes your young people to go all around the world preaching a FALSE gospel to people who are ignorant of the Bible, and who don't realize that your teachings and your "prophets" and your "church" is false. If you or Smith had made up your own unique religion that had nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus Christ, we might not care as much, but when you preach your false gospel to the world, you make FALSE claims about Jesus Christ and about the Bible. And we care about that.

You want your church to have free reign to proclaim your false gospel to the whole world, but you want to SILENCE anyone else from pointing out the errors and lies in your message. And I'm sorry, but that is NOT how it works.

And the ironic thing is that it is the MORMONS who create the critics.

WhenI first became a Christian, I knew nothing about Mormonism. But a Mormon by the name of Doug sent me an unsolicited email, trying to convert me to Mormonism. That ended up being a ten-year friendly exchange of emails, where we each shared our beliefs with one another. And that gave me a love for Mormons, and a desire to help them come out of their false beliefs and come to a TRUE knowledge of Christ, just as many thousands of ex-Mormons (such as the Wilders) have come to, over the years.

When James White graduated university, he had completed a double major in Biology and Bible. He knew nothing about Mormonism, but his sister-in-law had been visited by Mormon missionaries, and they had scheduled another visit, and his sister-in-law invited him to be part of it. He knew nothing about Mormonism, but the knew the gospel, and was able to be helpful in that exchange. He ended up buying a number of books on Mormonism, including the entire Journal of Discourses (hardcopy) which he transported home on his motorcycle. And that's how his "Alpha and Omega Ministries" began, thanks to two Mormon missionaries (I believe their names were "Elder Reese" and "Elder Reed".

So it is Mormonism that creates the critics.

I am evidence to challenge your own beliefs.

You are free to do that, but this is NOT the appropriate forum for doing that.
You attack our beliefs here, instead of in an appropriate forum, to try to derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, since you know that Mormonism is indefensible.

You can choose true rely on flesh and blood, and the arm of the flesh, o

Sorry, but that leads to Mormonism, which we reject.

or you can decide to “do the work” study, ponder, and pray as I did, to see how it all fits together and nothing else makes sense.

We have done that.
And that undeniably leads to evangelical Christianity.

It should be obvious that Mormonism is false, since nobody EVER came anywhere NEAR your beliefs prior to Joseph Smith.

Bible based Christianity is confusion to me.

That's because you're trying to interpret it within a paradigm of Mormonism.
And THAT is your mistake.

I received my “baptism by fire” when I was 6 years old. 6! And it was spawned by mere curiosity. My parents weren’t actually all that religious. I wanted to know if the BoM was true. I got my answer and I never forgot it.
When I was in high school. I was a victim of Mormon culture and religiousity. I was unfairly treated and judged. I had every excuse to leave the church. But, during that time, when I was trying to figure it all out, Jesus Christ appeared to me in a dream, and I felt a deeper love than I believe is possible in mortality. I knew that He was my Savior, and that “the great and spacious building” will always persecute the righteous. The experience planted a seed to help me see Mormonism “culture” vs the the true religion. Tares are always among the wheat.

Yep... So here's the part where the Mormon "bears his testimony" before he leaves, because he can't defend his false beliefs.

You can try and rationalize my behavior. You can call me a “nut job”, whatever you have to do to feel good about your own beliefs, but that is your judgment.

All we need to do is show how your beliefs are contradictory to the Bible.
And Mormons always RUN AWAY from those passages.
 

Magdalena

Active member
Again, you have to understand strawman fallacies and hierarchies of truths.
You also have to understand Mormonism. It’s not like any other Christian church. It’s not “top down” as it is made out to be.

Bruce R. McConkie:
“There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines,…wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!” (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.


Bonnie, this will be my last writing on this forum, save a zoom call to my Bishop per Redeemed’s request, or if the Spirit prompts me to do otherwise.
Why I believe isn’t your concern. I am evidence to challenge your own beliefs. You can choose true rely on flesh and blood, and the arm of the flesh, or you can decide to “do the work” study, ponder, and pray as I did, to see how it all fits together and nothing else makes sense. Bible based Christianity is confusion to me.

I received my “baptism by fire” when I was 6 years old. 6! And it was spawned by mere curiosity. My parents weren’t actually all that religious. I wanted to know if the BoM was true. I got my answer and I never forgot it.
When I was in high school. I was a victim of Mormon culture and religiousity. I was unfairly treated and judged. I had every excuse to leave the church. But, during that time, when I was trying to figure it all out, Jesus Christ appeared to me in a dream, and I felt a deeper love than I believe is possible in mortality. I knew that He was my Savior, and that “the great and spacious building” will always persecute the righteous. The experience planted a seed to help me see Mormonism “culture” vs the the true religion. Tares are always among the wheat.
The experiences go on, but in the words of Paul:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)
You can try and rationalize my behavior. You can call me a “nut job”, whatever you have to do to feel good about your own beliefs, but that is your judgment. And I care about God’s opinion more.
I believe God doesn’t teach us truth out of our own intellectual exercise, but we are actually responsible for relating our truth, just as prophets in times of old.
You and I will one day stand in judgment. I love you as a sister, Bonnie! I think we’re kindred spirits. I will be on your side on the day of judgment.
The choice is binary, one of us is the “honorable [man/woman] of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.” Well, let’s just accept that, and jointly love God and our fellow man. I’m done arguing it. God helped me see that. He really is the only teacher that can help us understand anything.
Now I must go make a more tangible difference in feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked. Take care, Bonnie! God bless!

If Bible based Christianity is confusing to you, just focus on Christ’s words.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If Bible based Christianity is confusing to you, just focus on Christ’s words.

1) He needs to read through the book of Romans, very slowly, and very carefully. What Paul writes makes perfect "sense".

2) He needs to read though the book of Hebrews, very slowly, and very carefully, especially chapters 7-10. Its treatment of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods blows Mormonism out of the water.

3) When he says our beliefs "don't make sense", I don't think he means that, but I think he means that he doesn't LIKE what it teaches, such as God forgiving our sin without our first doing something. It's a perfectly reasonable assertion that's not difficult to understand, but if you come to the table with an attitude of, "God can't give me anything unless I've earned it", then you're not going to accept the true gospel.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
1) He needs to read through the book of Romans, very slowly, and very carefully. What Paul writes makes perfect "sense".

2) He needs to read though the book of Hebrews, very slowly, and very carefully, especially chapters 7-10. Its treatment of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods blows Mormonism out of the water.

3) When he says our beliefs "don't make sense", I don't think he means that, but I think he means that he doesn't LIKE what it teaches, such as God forgiving our sin without our first doing something. It's a perfectly reasonable assertion that's not difficult to understand, but if you come to the table with an attitude of, "God can't give me anything unless I've earned it", then you're not going to accept the true gospel.
Absolutely correct. And all Mormons need to read those books as if they were reading them for the first time, as if they actually had something to say to them, and humbly ask God to open their hearts to understand on a spiritual level, what these books are actually teaching.

But your assessment is correct. Tertiumquid wrote this on the Lutheran board:

I once explained justification by faith alone as opposed to works righteousness to a guy at work. He totally understood what I was saying, but responded, "that's ridiculous." As I see it, it's not that non-Christians can't understand the Bible, it's that they are unable to savingly believe what it says.

How well Paul explains it! "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God."

And being saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord without any works on our part just sounds suspiciously like "too good to be true." But it IS "too good" because JESUS IS TOO GOOD! He did what we could never do in a thousand lifetimes--keep the law perfectly in our stead, to become the perfect sacrifice for all of our sins, so that we will be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, when we receive humbly the gift of this salvation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Actually, it is.

Your church organizes your young people to go all around the world preaching a FALSE gospel to people who are ignorant of the Bible, and who don't realize that your teachings and your "prophets" and your "church" is false. If you or Smith had made up your own unique religion that had nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus Christ, we might not care as much, but when you preach your false gospel to the world, you make FALSE claims about Jesus Christ and about the Bible. And we care about that.

You want your church to have free reign to proclaim your false gospel to the whole world, but you want to SILENCE anyone else from pointing out the errors and lies in your message. And I'm sorry, but that is NOT how it works.

And the ironic thing is that it is the MORMONS who create the critics.

WhenI first became a Christian, I knew nothing about Mormonism. But a Mormon by the name of Doug sent me an unsolicited email, trying to convert me to Mormonism. That ended up being a ten-year friendly exchange of emails, where we each shared our beliefs with one another. And that gave me a love for Mormons, and a desire to help them come out of their false beliefs and come to a TRUE knowledge of Christ, just as many thousands of ex-Mormons (such as the Wilders) have come to, over the years.

When James White graduated university, he had completed a double major in Biology and Bible. He knew nothing about Mormonism, but his sister-in-law had been visited by Mormon missionaries, and they had scheduled another visit, and his sister-in-law invited him to be part of it. He knew nothing about Mormonism, but the knew the gospel, and was able to be helpful in that exchange. He ended up buying a number of books on Mormonism, including the entire Journal of Discourses (hardcopy) which he transported home on his motorcycle. And that's how his "Alpha and Omega Ministries" began, thanks to two Mormon missionaries (I believe their names were "Elder Reese" and "Elder Reed".

So it is Mormonism that creates the critics.



You are free to do that, but this is NOT the appropriate forum for doing that.
You attack our beliefs here, instead of in an appropriate forum, to try to derail discussion AWAY from Mormonism, since you know that Mormonism is indefensible.



Sorry, but that leads to Mormonism, which we reject.



We have done that.
And that undeniably leads to evangelical Christianity.

It should be obvious that Mormonism is false, since nobody EVER came anywhere NEAR your beliefs prior to Joseph Smith.



That's because you're trying to interpret it within a paradigm of Mormonism.
And THAT is your mistake.



Yep... So here's the part where the Mormon "bears his testimony" before he leaves, because he can't defend his false beliefs.



All we need to do is show how your beliefs are contradictory to the Bible.
And Mormons always RUN AWAY from those passages.
Theo do you personally know Dr. White?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo do you personally know Dr. White?

Let's see....

I've interacted with Dr. White for many years in his chat channel associated with his website.
I first met him when he came to speak at a conference in Toronto in 2005.
I was privileged to go on a cruise he co-hosted in 2012, and was able to spend time with him and his lovely wife. In fact, I made a number of great friendships on that cruise.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Again, you have to understand strawman fallacies and hierarchies of truths.
You also have to understand Mormonism. It’s not like any other Christian church. It’s not “top down” as it is made out to be.

Bruce R. McConkie:

If we're not allowed to quote your church's leaders on your church's official website, why are YOU allowed to quote your church leaders?
Do you truly not see the blatant hypocrisy here?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Let's see....

I've interacted with Dr. White for many years in his chat channel associated with his website.
I first met him when he came to speak at a conference in Toronto in 2005.
I was privileged to go on a cruise he co-hosted in 2012, and was able to spend time with him and his lovely wife. In fact, I made a number of great friendships on that cruise.
That sounds great! I like Dr. White and his aomin.org website. Is he a good speaker?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Again, you have to understand strawman fallacies and hierarchies of truths.
You also have to understand Mormonism. It’s not like any other Christian church. It’s not “top down” as it is made out to be.

I know what a straw man fallacy is. But what do you mean by "hierarchies of truths"? Does that mean some "truths" are more important than others? Some things may be true but may not be faith-promoting? What?
Bruce R. McConkie:
“There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: “And all those who preach false doctrines,…wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!” (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.
So, once again, excuses are made for BYoung for the false doctrines he taught AS doctrine--like the Adam as God doctrine....I wonder how many people he led astray in his day, with that vile doctrine....? So....do you think BYoung was "thrust down to hell" for preaching false doctrine about the nature of who God is? Yet, you say he has gone onto his eternal "reward" even though 2 Nephi 28:15 says that those who preach false doctrines will be thrust down to hell! So, which is it? Why the--yet again--contradictions? I know that if any president of my denomination ever taught heresy, he would go before the other officers in our church and if he refused to recant, he would be defrocked and fired. But no....Mormons continue to make excuses for Young like with "Well, not everything he taught was bad...." Yet, you wrote this: "This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals". Well, isn't teaching that Adam is our God a fundamental teaching, on the "nature and kind of being God is"?

I have no doubt that Young went on to his 'reward" but it isn't the one you are no doubt thinking of....
I received my “baptism by fire” when I was 6 years old. 6! And it was spawned by mere curiosity. My parents weren’t actually all that religious. I wanted to know if the BoM was true. I got my answer and I never forgot it.

how? By a burning in the bosom? Sorry, but that is not how one determines the truth--not by a subjective feeling.
When I was in high school. I was a victim of Mormon culture and religiousity. I was unfairly treated and judged. I had every excuse to leave the church. But, during that time, when I was trying to figure it all out, Jesus Christ appeared to me in a dream, and I felt a deeper love than I believe is possible in mortality. I knew that He was my Savior, and that “the great and spacious building” will always persecute the righteous. The experience planted a seed to help me see Mormonism “culture” vs the the true religion. Tares are always among the wheat.

Okay, but how do you know it was really Jesus? Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, you know...but did this vision tell you that your church is true and to separate the truth religion from its culture? Or did He just tell you he loved you?
The experiences go on, but in the words of Paul:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)

Paul was talking about himself. Jesus directly taught Paul the Gospel. And he has taught it to us, and warned that if anyone preaches a different gospel than the one he preached, even if from an angel, that person is anathema--cursed by God. See above about BYoung.
You can try and rationalize my behavior. You can call me a “nut job”, whatever you have to do to feel good about your own beliefs, but that is your judgment. And I care about God’s opinion more.

No one is going to call you a nut job, least of all, me. I already "feel good" about my beliefs because they are based upon the Bible, not spurious other "scriptures" and not about subjective experiences and subjective dreams, or the lies of a con man and false prophet.
I believe God doesn’t teach us truth out of our own intellectual exercise, but we are actually responsible for relating our truth, just as prophets in times of old.
You and I will one day stand in judgment. I love you as a sister, Bonnie! I think we’re kindred spirits. I will be on your side on the day of judgment.

What is truth, Aaron? Jesus said that His Father's word is truth. And Jesus is the Word of God. What your church teaches is not the truth and not of God. Not when compared to God's actual words, the Bible.
The choice is binary, one of us is the “honorable [man/woman] of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.”

That would not be me, as I don't follow a lying false prophet that taught a different Gospel than the one Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught--to their eternal destruction.
Well, let’s just accept that, and jointly love God and our fellow man. I’m done arguing it. God helped me see that. He really is the only teacher that can help us understand anything.
Now I must go make a more tangible difference in feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked. Take care, Bonnie! God bless!
I wish you the best and hope someday you will stop resisting the Holy Spirit and turn to the true Jesus Christ of the Bible to be saved, before it is too late. You cannot follow a false prophet and a false church that teaches for doctrines the lies and commandments of men, and the true Jesus Christ at the same time.

As for feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, I wish you all the best in that endeavor. I wish your church would loosen its grip on that $100 Billion windfall it is sitting on, squirreled away in various accounts. It gives less than a half percent of its earnings to charities, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked....but that is for another thread. Have a blessed Christmas.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That sounds great! I like Dr. White and his aomin.org website. Is he a good speaker?

Let's see...

Dr. White makes it a point to know as much as he can about what a group teaches, from primary sources from the group. When he started studying Mormonism, he purchased all the volumes of the "Journal of Discourses", and I'm sure he's read not only the Standard Works, but the main books of Talmage, Richards, McConkie, Kimball, etc.

When he started witnessing to Catholics, I'm pretty sure he read most, if not all, of the published ECF's, but ante-Nicene and post-Nicene.

When he started witnessing to Muslims, not only did he read the Qur'an, but also the main Hadith, including Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim (they're additional teachings of Mohammad), as well as getting a tutor to help him learn Arabic, so he could read the Qur'an in the original language (he also reads Hebrew and Greek, and preaches directly from the Greek).

I think he's an excellent speaker, not only addressing the primary issues of the religions he deals with, but also presenting a positive gospel presentation at the same time. His books are also excellent, my favourites being "The Forgotten Trinity", "The Potter's Freedom", "The God Who Justifies", and "Letters to a Mormon Elder". He also wrote a book called "Grieving: Your Path Back to Peace", from his early years when he worked as a hospital chaplain.

He has different forms of presentation, from "talk show" style informal discussions of topics on his podcast, to his sermons (he's very humble and doesn't consider himself a great preacher), to his debates with Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, and a JW.

Well worth reading/listening to, IMO.

There's also an active poster in the A&C forum, "beloved daughter", and she goes to the church he and Jeff Durbin pastor.
 

kpasa

Member
This is like saying:
“Do you believe God’s throne resides near Kolob? The Bible doesn’t it doesn’t. So in a way, the Bible supports this.”

This is the reasoning our critics use to declare what is official doctrine of the Church.

If “the website” = “doctrine” then there should be a statement establish that as fact. Otherwise, we are left to only trust what is being stated on the subject:

Unlike the gods of Mormonism, the Judeo-Christian concept of God is that He is transcendent and is not confined to some "official" place within this universe. This would make the Kolob reference a non sequitur. A cursory reading, singing, or praying of the Psalms should make that point clear.
 
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