An exegetical response to Leighton Flowers; Ephesians 1 and Provisionalism -- James White.

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Words have meaning, and you are getting it all wrong. Please explain how the word possible denies the omniscience of God.
If God is all knowing, then how is it "possible" what He knows could be other than what He knows with certainty ? Is it possible the fall and sins entrance into the world would not have occured?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
If God is all knowing, then how is it "possible" what He knows could be other than what He knows with certainty ? Is it possible the fall and sins entrance into the world would not have occured?
Yes it is possible. The fact that God knew it would happen, does not mean that it was predetermined that it should. You are confusing foreknowledge with predetermination, a common falacy of Calvinism. For example in 1 Samuel 23:9-13 we are told that David inquired of God to know whether if he went to Keilah, the inhabitants would deliver him to Saul or not? God told him that they would, so he didn’t go there, and avoided capture. Now let us suppose that David had ignored that advice, and had gone to Keilah, and was captured. Does that mean that he was predetermined to go there and be captured? Obviously not. He had the choice to do either, and outcome in each case was known to God in advance. So foreknowledge does not necessitate determinism. Calvinism is false and unbiblical from start to finish. There is nothing right about Calvinism. It is wrong from the beginning to the end. Here are the verses from 1 Samuel, by the way, which you do not appear to be familiar with:

1 Samuel 23:

9 And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.
10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.
12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.
13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.


If that scripture is true, that proves that the foreknowledge of God does not mean that the future is cast in stone, as Calvinism presupposes.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yes it is possible. The fact that God knew it would happen, does not mean that it was predetermined that it should. You are confusing foreknowledge with predetermination, a common falacy of Calvinism. For example in 1 Samuel 23:9-13 we are told that David inquired of God to know whether if he went to Keilah, the inhabitants would deliver him to Saul or not? God told him that they would, so he didn’t go there, and avoided capture. Now let us suppose that David had ignored that advice, and had gone to Keilah, and was captured. Does that mean that he was predetermined to go there and be captured? Obviously not. He had the choice to do either, and outcome in each case was known to God in advance. So foreknowledge does not necessitate determinism. Calvinism is false and unbiblical from start to finish. There is nothing right about Calvinism. It is wrong from the beginning to the end. Here are the verses from 1 Samuel, by the way, which you do not appear to be familiar with:

1 Samuel 23:

9 And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.
10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.
12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.
13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.


If that scripture is true, that proves that the foreknowledge of God does not mean that the future is cast in stone, as Calvinism presupposes.
It's a proof text for middle knowledge
 
T

TomFL

Guest
He is the Chosen ONE, not one of the chosen ones.

Only chosen by virtue of being found in the Chosen one.
Only a son by virtue of being found in the Son.
And ??

Is that any different than what I stated


God chose in Christ

In Christ being the condition of election
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Yes it is possible. The fact that God knew it would happen, does not mean that it was predetermined that it should. You are confusing foreknowledge with predetermination, a common falacy of Calvinism. For example in 1 Samuel 23:9-13 we are told that David inquired of God to know whether if he went to Keilah, the inhabitants would deliver him to Saul or not? God told him that they would, so he didn’t go there, and avoided capture. Now let us suppose that David had ignored that advice, and had gone to Keilah, and was captured. Does that mean that he was predetermined to go there and be captured? Obviously not. He had the choice to do either, and outcome in each case was known to God in advance. So foreknowledge does not necessitate determinism. Calvinism is false and unbiblical from start to finish. There is nothing right about Calvinism. It is wrong from the beginning to the end. Here are the verses from 1 Samuel, by the way, which you do not appear to be familiar with:

1 Samuel 23:

9 And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.
10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.
12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up.
13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.


If that scripture is true, that proves that the foreknowledge of God does not mean that the future is cast in stone, as Calvinism presupposes.
If He foreknows it will necessarily occur. What you will choose tomorrow is foreknown it by necessity will occur. You cannot choose otherwise.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
If He foreknows it will necessarily occur. What you will choose tomorrow is foreknown it by necessity will occur. You cannot choose otherwise.
Faulty logic. Not true. The conclusion does not logically follow from the given premise. Your conclusion is an assumption. It is a presupposition. It is not a logical requirement.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Faulty logic. Not true. The conclusion does not logically follow from the given premise. Your conclusion is an assumption. It is a presupposition. It is not a logical requirement.
Sure. You did not deal with the arguement at all. God, being omniscient, and the creator of all that exists knows exactly how history is going to play out because He created it that way. Your choices are foreknown. You cannot and will not choose otherwise. Your choices are part of God's plan as to how history will play out.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sure. You did not deal with the arguement at all.
I think I did.
God, being omniscient, and the creator of all that exists knows exactly how history is going to play out because He created it that way.
The way he has created it is that he has granted man complete libertarian freedom to choose for himself how he will go, without any coercion, predestination, or predetermination on his side.
Your choices are foreknown.
Agreed. Foreknown, but not predestined or predetermined. Two different things.
You cannot and will not choose otherwise.
Wrong, as always.
Your choices are part of God's plan as to how history will play out.
Utterly false, heretical, unbiblical, and wrong.
 
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