An important distinction that I believe cannot be overemphasized

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Christ did not come to save us from the punishment for sin, but rather from the power of sin.

The punishment for sin is sin itself. If we deny its inherent punishment, it is because an element of that punishment is deception. Jesus is the Light that exposes that deception in order to initiate repentance, whereby we crawl toward Him for comfort and deliverance from the power of sin, which enslaves us. In Him there is freedom. All this talk about slavery neglects to consider the worst slavemasters of all, the perpetrators of sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. He is our Liberator.
 
Christ did not come to save us from the punishment for sin, but rather from the power of sin.

The punishment for sin is sin itself. If we deny its inherent punishment, it is because an element of that punishment is deception. Jesus is the Light that exposes that deception in order to initiate repentance, whereby we crawl toward Him for comfort and deliverance from the power of sin, which enslaves us. In Him there is freedom. All this talk about slavery neglects to consider the worst slavemasters of all, the perpetrators of sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. He is our Liberator.
Liberator?
Really??

Are you in the habit of lavishing praise upon the individual who puts out your housefire - knowing that it was the same individual who set the fire?

God consciously and purposefully consigned us to be sinners, stiggy
Why, then, are you inclined to praise Him for offering a way out?
 
Are you in the habit of lavishing praise upon the individual who puts out your housefire - knowing that it was the same individual who set the fire?

Only if the house is insured for more than it's worth, which is the case with my soul.

Christ set fire to my soul and then put it out. He does this on a near daily basis. Man, I'm loving your new theism.
 
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Only if the house is insured for more than it's worth, which is the case with my soul.

Christ set fire to my soul and then put it out. He does this on a near daily basis. Man, I'm loving your new theism.
So, in your view Christianity is a form of insurance fraud. Interesting take that, but I can see what you mean.
 
Christ did not come to save us from the punishment for sin, but rather from the power of sin.

The punishment for sin is sin itself. If we deny its inherent punishment, it is because an element of that punishment is deception. Jesus is the Light that exposes that deception in order to initiate repentance, whereby we crawl toward Him for comfort and deliverance from the power of sin, which enslaves us. In Him there is freedom. All this talk about slavery neglects to consider the worst slavemasters of all, the perpetrators of sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. He is our Liberator.
paul called this body ‘fleshbody’ for a reason….
 
So, in your view Christianity is a form of insurance fraud. Interesting take that, but I can see what you mean.

Good. I was hoping you guys might. Christ hoodwinked the devil and his minions. I Cor 2: 7-8:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
Christ did not come to save us from the punishment for sin, but rather from the power of sin.

The punishment for sin is sin itself. If we deny its inherent punishment, it is because an element of that punishment is deception. Jesus is the Light that exposes that deception in order to initiate repentance, whereby we crawl toward Him for comfort and deliverance from the power of sin, which enslaves us. In Him there is freedom. All this talk about slavery neglects to consider the worst slavemasters of all, the perpetrators of sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. He is our Liberator.
How does this idea integrate with the concept of the wages of sin being death? "Wages" in this metaphor substitutes for that which is deserved. That would mean that Christ came to save us from the deserved consequence for our action, would it not?
 
Christ did not come to save us from the punishment for sin, but rather from the power of sin.

The punishment for sin is sin itself. If we deny its inherent punishment, it is because an element of that punishment is deception. Jesus is the Light that exposes that deception in order to initiate repentance, whereby we crawl toward Him for comfort and deliverance from the power of sin, which enslaves us. In Him there is freedom. All this talk about slavery neglects to consider the worst slavemasters of all, the perpetrators of sin, the world, the flesh and the devil. He is our Liberator.
Actually, he came to save us from the power of sin, the judgment/consequence/punishment due sin, and ultimately the presence of sin.

The whole kit-n-kaboodle.

The power of sin is that it separates us from YHVH, causing death.

As is written, the wages of sin is death.

And as is further written, the soul that sins shall die.



Matt wrote this back in 2008.


 
Here we go again…. Let’s watch how effective the clarity and conviction of a personal relationship with God works between 2 Christians. Getting the popcorn.
 
How does this idea integrate with the concept of the wages of sin being death? "Wages" in this metaphor substitutes for that which is deserved. That would mean that Christ came to save us from the deserved consequence for our action, would it not?
Yes.

According to Genesis 2, Adam was told that in the day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, dying he would die.

In Genesis 3, we read that God gave Adam and Eve skins to cover them.

Considering that further, the skins given were two animal skins. That means that God killed two animals to atone for Adam's sin.

In Ezekiel 18 we read that the soul that sins shall die.

Death is the consequence of sin.
Wages are paid for our actions. In the case of sin, the wages are death.
 
How does this idea integrate with the concept of the wages of sin being death?

Sin kills our spiritual connection to our Creator.

"Wages" in this metaphor substitutes for that which is deserved.

Correct. We deserve spiritual death. Paul tells us we must die to sin.

That would mean that Christ came to save us from the deserved consequence for our action, would it not?

Yes, He saves us from our spiritual death by resurrecting us to new life. Sarx for zoe
 
Here we go again…. Let’s watch how effective the clarity and conviction of a personal relationship with God works between 2 Christians. Getting the popcon

Hmmmm, shall I be equally idiotic and as a full blown capitalist, find a Marxist discussion board and munch on some of Orville Redenbacher's best while reading differences of opinions among two Communists over Lenin versus Trotsky? Or perhaps as a hater of Captain and Tennille's music I should go to a C&T discussion board and join in two fan's disagreement over which is best, Muskrat Love or Love Will Keep us Together.
 
Sin kills our spiritual connection to our Creator.



Correct. We deserve spiritual death. Paul tells us we must die to sin.



Yes, He saves us from our spiritual death by resurrecting us to new life. Sarx for zoe
But you said the punishment of sin is sin itself. Now you are saying the punishment is the death of our spiritual connection to God. I’m not understanding your original post at all then.
 
Hmmmm, shall I be equally idiotic and as a full blown capitalist, find a Marxist discussion board and munch on some of Orville Redenbacher's best while reading differences of opinions among two Communists over Lenin versus Trotsky? Or perhaps as a hater of Captain and Tennille's music I should go to a C&T discussion board and join in two fan's disagreement over which is best, Muskrat Love or Love Will Keep us Together.
Christians don’t claim political or musical opinions. They proclaim to bear the ultimate truth of the almighty God to all mankind and consider themselves to possess a great commission to proselytize it. So you and Steve go at it now…. Show us how your personal connection to the God that reveals truth to you settles this so you can get that great commission sorted out for us.
 
But you said the punishment of sin is sin itself.

Correct.

Now you are saying the punishment is the death of our spiritual connection to God

Correct. When my kids used to misbehave, their punishment was twofold.. They might have to go without TV, but worse to them was their break with parental fellowship. But I did not save them from their punishment.
 
Correct.



Correct. When my kids used to misbehave, their punishment was twofold.. They might have to go without TV, but worse to them was their break with parental fellowship. But I did not save them from their punishment.
So your original post made no sense then. There are punishments/consequences for sin beyond the sin itself.
 
Looks like wishful thinking on your part. You need to ask yourself why.
I know why already. If either of you are wrong about this, you don’t possess a relationship with a personal god that reveals truth to you…. so you could be wrong about everything as well. Spoiler alert- you are.
 
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