An inconvenient truth…

Markk

Active member
Because of recent discussions, or more accurately put “the lack of willingness to discuss” the beginnings of the “plan of salvation” with our LDS fiends here. This thread will hopefully outline key teachings by the church as to the “beginning” of mankind, and evoking a willingness to accept the fact that this is a real teaching that is a keystone to the plan of salvation and the beginning of the eternal law of progression. One does not have to believe it, I certainly do not, but it does demand a honest discussion because it is so central and key to the plan of salvation as taught by the church.

I’m not sure why this topic is avoided here, other than it destroys the preconceived theory’s and possibly provides thorns to testimonies of our two resident members of the church. The major stumbling block, IMO, is that it forces the member to deal with a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother begetting and giving birth to spirit children. And the reality this was taught that it was by sexual generation between HF and HM. This is truly the sore point of this “ inconvenient truth “ I speak of in the Title…which apparently must be avoided at all costs.

But at any rate this real teaching, by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, most every other LDS prophet, current standard works, BYU studies, and correlation …is “the“ beginning of the plan of salvation and of the eternal existence of both God and man.

I am going to go slow, even as I study it more deeply. There is despite what Aaron and BoJ say…an almost overwhelming treasure chest full of teachings on this, again from Joseph Smith, to Current teaching manuals And paint a clear basic understanding of the doctrine.

I start with this current teaching…from LDS . Org on the topic of “intelligence.”

“(3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.”

This is a undeniable statement on the churches website that clearly teach that there is something called “intelligence” that was “begotten” as “spirit children.”

More later.
 

Markk

Active member
I believe the above quote begs many questions. The first being, what does “begotten” mean in a LDS construct? It is obvious the subject of what is begotten, is ”spirit children.”

So moving forward with this is mind…teachings on this subject use the word “begotten” in context with words like “born” … “raised”…”reared” … “infant” …” child.” Other words in context organized from unorganized?

Teachers like Brigham Young teach that this process is the same as it is in mortality.

One of the most current teachings that compliment this is Gospel Principles chapter 2, (2012) which reads…

We Are Children of Our Heavenly Father
•What do scriptures and latter-day prophets teach us about our relationship to God?

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father . All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God . “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335) .


In 1945, a teaching manual read…

THE SPIRIT WORLD

The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father. As was definitely pointed out in an earlier chapter, numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world.
GTTA hunter


Brigham Young taught in 1852

The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. JOD…April 9th 1852


There scores of such teachings, in one way or another…but these three quotes are clear that HF’s and HM’s children, were born and begotten into spirit form.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
That’s what I was always taught in mormonism... that intelligence was given form in a spirit body thru a birthing process between God and his wives. And we were sent here thru another birth to get physical bodies for our spirits.

Brigham Young said it was the same and only kind of birth process in heaven and earth. And so did many other Mormon leaders. I remember a family home evening lesson from a manual that was how to tell your children that spirits were born the same way we were. I‘ll see if I can find that somewhere.
 

Markk

Active member
This is a compilation of quotes about becoming gods and having spirit children.

This is so interesting. Thanks for sharing. Last night on the RFM podcast, Bill Reel touched on this very topic. One person posted “the death of eternal progression.”

For me this shows that the GA are totally lost, and lost control of any doctrinal management.

Many Mormon’s want to believe in eternal families. They want to fulfill their temple covenants, and be like HF. Yet they want to deny the very doctrine that allows all that to happen.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
This is so interesting. Thanks for sharing. Last night on the RFM podcast, Bill Reel touched on this very topic. One person posted “the death of eternal progression.”

For me this shows that the GA are totally lost, and lost control of any doctrinal management.

Many Mormon’s want to believe in eternal families. They want to fulfill their temple covenants, and be like HF. Yet they want to deny the very doctrine that allows all that to happen.
I think they must know it was all lies. And they just don’t have anything else.
 

Markk

Active member
I think they must know it was all lies. And they just don’t have anything else.
I often wonder if they try to find out the deeper truths, or do they…like my parents did, just don’t want to know too much. Basically don’t rock the boat. These guys have access to documents we could only dream of having access too, I wonder if they even want to research the archives, I doubt it.

It would be a pretty tough life to be a “prophet”…and have people basically worship you, but know in your heart you are just a man, sorting through 175 years of contradictions. No matter what position they take in regards to LDS doctrine, it will lead to a contradiction.

But yeah, it is all they got.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Because of recent discussions, or more accurately put “the lack of willingness to discuss” the beginnings of the “plan of salvation” with our LDS fiends here.
Nah. We're discussing for sure. We're just not agreeing.
This thread will hopefully outline key teachings by the church as to the “beginning” of mankind, and evoking a willingness to accept the fact that this is a real teaching that is a keystone to the plan of salvation and the beginning of the eternal law of progression.
So, we're going to have an ex-Mormon teach us what we believe. :rolleyes:
One does not have to believe it, I certainly do not, but it does demand a honest discussion because it is so central and key to the plan of salvation as taught by the church.
And that's what you've been getting, "honest discussion". The fact that you disagree with it doesn't make it dishonest.
Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother begetting and giving birth to spirit children.
Oh. that happens alright. It just doesn't happen the way you claim it does.
And the reality this was taught that it was by sexual generation
Nope.
I am going to go slow, even as I study it more deeply. There is despite what Aaron and BoJ say…an almost overwhelming treasure chest full of teachings on this, again from Joseph Smith, to Current teaching manuals And paint a clear basic understanding of the doctrine.
Nope
“(3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.”

This is a undeniable statement on the churches website that clearly teach that there is something called “intelligence” that was “begotten” as “spirit children.”
Correct and zero evidence to say it we were begotten through sexual relations. You can extrapolate that, but it's not there.

You're just beating a dead horse.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Teachers like Brigham Young teach that this process is the same as it is in mortality.
What they teach is that children there are born the same way that they are born here. They are physical little babies of flesh and bone and are reared to maturity in the celestial worlds before they are married and placed in a Terrestrial world and then descend to a telestial world as Adam and Eve. But the process of birth results there exactly as it results here. If you have ever seen a spirit born, let me know, in fact, let all science know because that would be a new discovery.

I mean, it's absolutely absurd that you take the phrase, "the same as it is in mortality" and then you expect us to accept that it is the means of producing something that we don't produce here in mortality. You don't see the problem there?
God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father . All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God . “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335) .
And still, not a single word about sex. We believe that we are the offspring of God and that He is our Heavenly Father and that we do have heavenly parents. That's not the issue here.
The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father. As was definitely pointed out in an earlier chapter, numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world. GTTA hunter
That's Milton, He got his ideas from BH Roberts who stated flatly that these ideas were a theory and that it was not doctrine. And, yes, we do teach speculation sometimes. Still, there is nothing here about having sex to produce spirits. I've examined Roberts' theory and I don't see any difference between what you claim is "ego" and the spirit. "Intelligence" and "spirit" are uses synonymously in the scriptures and by Joseph Smith. But we all agree that the being is the same regardless of the state. The problem is, the scriptures nor the teachings of any GA, explains how spirits came to be but we do teach that the identity of spirits is eternal, so they were and have been always male and female for eternity. At some point, these spirits were organized into families and that what Milton and Roberts are trying to describe but even they don't attribute it to sex.

Again, it seems to be common sense that if we always existed co-etermal with God the Father and that he didn't create or make us, that something had to happen to make us his children. The problem with this theory that suggests that our spirits were created ("eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies") is that everything that has a beginning must also have an ending and if this is true, then at some point in the eternities, our spirits must end but we don't teach that they have an end. In fact, God is still a personage of spirit, resurrected and clothed in a body of flesh and bone. His body of flesh and bone is animated by his spirit. Our bodies are animated by blood. If that spirit dies, so does the body and eternal life will have an end.

This is why I believe that no one has explained how our spirits are begotten because it creates too many problems. The explanation for that is subject to speculation because it is unknown and Roberts and Hunter never speculated that they were begotten through sex. That's your assertion. However, we can speculate that whatever way God did it, we will do it the same way and that has ended up in a lot of church publications.
The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. JOD…April 9th 1852
Again, nothing about sex.
There scores of such teachings, in one way or another…but these three quotes are clear that HF’s and HM’s children, were born and begotten into spirit form.
There is no doubt that we believe we are the offspring of God, The New Testament teaches the very same theology. That has never been in question. But so far, in all your arguments, you have never made the case for sex as being the means of producing spirit children.
 

Markk

Active member
Nah. We're discussing for sure. We're just not agreeing.

So, we're going to have an ex-Mormon teach us what we believe. :rolleyes:

And that's what you've been getting, "honest discussion". The fact that you disagree with it doesn't make it dishonest.

Oh. that happens alright. It just doesn't happen the way you claim it does.

Nope.

Nope

Correct and zero evidence to say it we were begotten through sexual relations. You can extrapolate that, but it's not there.

You're just beating a dead horse.
Okay…Read your responses above no substance at a all, just deflection.

I’ll ask you this…”what were spirit children begat and born from according to LDS thought?”
 

Markk

Active member
What they teach is that children there are born the same way that they are born here. They are physical little babies of flesh and bone and are reared to maturity in the celestial worlds before they are married and placed in a Terrestrial world and then descend to a telestial world as Adam and Eve. But the process of birth results there exactly as it results here. If you have ever seen a spirit born, let me know, in fact, let all science know because that would be a new discovery.

I mean, it's absolutely absurd that you take the phrase, "the same as it is in mortality" and then you expect us to accept that it is the means of producing something that we don't produce here in mortality. You don't see the problem there?
Science? Can Science prove Joseph Smith was a prophet that saw God in a grove of trees in NY? LOL…If anything science would say the man was delusional. Or that man has a eternal spirit? Come on BOJ.

They are physical little babies of flesh and bone and are reared to maturity in the celestial worlds before they are married and placed in a Terrestrial world and then descend to a telestial world as Adam and Eve.

Please expound on this, so we can sort this out… are you saying, using yourself as an example; In the spirit world you were a baby of flesh and bone (no blood?) and that you lived with HF in the CK and were raised to maturity, married, then came here?

If possible, please provide a LDS teaching on how spirit children are born and begotten to a HF and a HM in preexistence?

I’ll get to the rest of your posts later after work, gotta run.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Yes. It would be wouldn't it? It came from an anti-Mormon site and it would support your animus so it must be "true" or if not true, at least it is interesting to people of that ilk.
If, by ”people of that ilk,“ you mean people who know and admit what real Mormon doctrine is, then yes.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Nah. We're discussing for sure. We're just not agreeing.

So, we're going to have an ex-Mormon teach us what we believe. :rolleyes:

And that's what you've been getting, "honest discussion". The fact that you disagree with it doesn't make it dishonest.

Oh. that happens alright. It just doesn't happen the way you claim it does.

Nope.

Nope

Correct and zero evidence to say it we were begotten through sexual relations. You can extrapolate that, but it's not there.

You're just beating a dead horse.
Then explain how it does happen, according to actual Mormon doctrine.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So, we're going to have an ex-Mormon teach us what we believe. :rolleyes:

Yeah, an "ex-Mormon" can't possibly know anything about Mormon, just like an "ex-Italian" couldn't possibly teach you anything about Italy, right?

I guess nobody can learn about Mormonism from you, since you are nothing but a FUTURE "ex-Mormon"..... ;)

(See how that works?)

You're just beating a dead horse.

Well, at least you're actually admitting that Mormonism's dead....
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I’ll ask you this…”what were spirit children begat and born from according to LDS thought?”
from God. How they were "born and begat" is a mystery. So far, as I have stated, you assert that those words can only mean sexual relations. That's your interpretation but none of the sources have made that assertion explicit so it's your imagination, your speculation, that that's what it means. I have demonstrated through the scriptures that man is eternal as is God. Therefore, there is no way it can mean that we were born through sexual relations. We already existed. We can't be created or made if we already exist.

Being born or begotten, can also mean starting a new direction or life such as in born-again. Did being born-again occur through sexual relations? Nope. I don't think so. I'm not sure what you believe about that.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Please expound on this, so we can sort this out
What is there to sort out? Are you not aware of how children are born in mortality?
Teachers like Brigham Young teach that this process is the same as it is in mortality.
This is what you said. There really isn't anything to sort out. A man and a woman have sex and produce a physical child. That's the way it works here. That's the way it works there.
please provide a LDS teaching on how spirit children are born and begotten to a HF and a HM in preexistence
There isn't any. You are just making it up that it was through sex out of whole cloth.
 
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