An inconvenient truth…

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yeah, an "ex-Mormon" can't possibly know anything about Mormon
I'm sure they "can" know SOMETHING about Mormon doctrine. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If it's Mormon doctrine, maybe they should actually produce something that actually says that spirits are begotten through sexual relations instead of making it up.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm sure they "can" know SOMETHING about Mormon doctrine. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If it's Mormon doctrine, maybe they should actually produce something that actually says that spirits are begotten through sexual relations instead of making it up.

And if you applied that standard to ALL of Mormonism, it would be destroyed by tea-time.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Markk

Active member
Being born or begotten, can also mean starting a new direction or life such as in born-again. Did being born-again occur through sexual relations? Nope. I don't think so. I'm not sure what you believe about that.

How do these teachings from a LDS teaching manual compliment being “Born Again” in a LDS context? Were you born-again in the preexistence? How does eternal sprint matter get organized into a spirt with spirit organs?

Please provide a LDS teaching for any such teaching that compliments your theory here.

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998],

  • “The spirit of man consists of an organization of the elements of spiritual matter in the likeness and after the pattern of the fleshly tabernacle. It possesses, in fact, all the organs and parts exactly corresponding to the outward tabernacle” (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 79). Current LDS teaching Institute manual quote “Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual”
  • It is the blessed privilege of resurrected beings who attain an exaltation in the celestial kingdom to enjoy the glory of endless increase, to become the parents of generations of spirit-offspring, and to direct their development through probationary stages analogous to those through which they themselves have passed. Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, (2000), 75–77
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I'm sure they "can" know SOMETHING about Mormon doctrine. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

If it's Mormon doctrine, maybe they should actually produce something that actually says that spirits are begotten through sexual relations instead of making it up.
We did... quotes from Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith and others.
 

Markk

Active member
Yeah, an "ex-Mormon" can't possibly know anything about Mormon, just like an "ex-Italian" couldn't possibly teach you anything about Italy, right?

I guess nobody can learn about Mormonism from you, since you are nothing but a FUTURE "ex-Mormon"..... ;)

(See how that works?)
How about ”an ex-POW could not possibly teach others anything about being a POW. “

It is just a ridiculous mindset, but it is necessary for the testimony by most Mormons I have talked with, I certainly held that view as a Mormon…if anyone member leaves the church, and speaks out negatively about ”the church”…they are an apostate and lacking clarity and never had a “real testimony.”

The GA fairly recently had to make a statement that Members can leave and/or doubt for real reasons, because members were leaving or going inactive because of the attitudes expressed from members like BoJ. I’ll see if I can find the statement.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
How do these teachings from a LDS teaching manual compliment being “Born Again” in a LDS context?
Neither requires sexual relations. :rolleyes:
Were you born-again in the preexistence?
I don't remember. Do you?
How does eternal sprint matter get organized into a spirt with spirit organs?
I don't know. Neither does anyone else. I believe there are some people who came up with some ideas, some "theories", but they aren't doctrine. ;)

Tell me, what book, chapter, and verse describes this process of organizing spirits? We know they were organized, they had to be since they all existed before they were organized.

There are two possibilities. 1) the spirits of our earthly parents had sex and produced spiritual offspring. that's not likely because Jesus's mother would have been a spirit and God would have been a human, or 2) There was no sex involved. Just as we became sons and daughters to Christ through the gospel by making and keeping covenants, we came spirits sons and daughters to God the Father through covenant.

I believe we were organized into families after the war in heaven and that that was done by word. Allowing the process to role out naturally would have prevented God from placing his rulers amongst the children of men in accordance with his wisdom and would have made us all look like Him and we don't. We all look like our parents.
Please provide a LDS teaching for any such teaching that compliments your theory here.
I'm still waiting for you to produce LDS teachings that our spirits were produced through sexual relations.
God is not only our Ruler and Creator
True, He created these bodies in which our spirits dwell.
All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God.
True, But how do beings that already exist coeternal with God become sons and daughters to God? It seems to me, that it is the same way that we become sons and daughters to Christ which doesn't require sexual relations.

So we have two examples of offspring. One is by commitment and the other is through sex. One is spiritual and the other is physical.
Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents
True, born spiritually as we are born spiritually now. It occurs to a person that already exists through making a commitment to God.
and reared to maturity
Taught the gospel
in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998],
In heaven.

Nothing is wrong with JFS's statement. I perfectly aligns with what I said.
“The spirit of man consists of an organization of the elements of spiritual matter in the likeness and after the pattern of the fleshly tabernacle.
Again, this is true, but nothing in this suggests that this occurred through sexual relations.
It possesses, in fact, all the organs and parts exactly corresponding to the outward tabernacle” (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 79).
And that's Parley's opinion. I don't know that he ever saw a spirit and was able to dissect the spirit to make the determination he is claiming. He is entitled to his opinion, but I think it is enough that the physical appears be the same. We really don't need to get into the guts.
Current LDS teaching Institute manual quote “Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual”
Sure, that doesn't make it doctrine. The fact is, nothing in the scriptures describes how spirits are formed, but we are able to tell a few things. 1. Man has always existed. He is eternal as is God. Be it intelligence, ego, spirit, mortal, resurrected being, they are all the same being throughout. The scriptures use intelligence and spirit synonymously and we have a statement from the First presidency that tells us that gender is eternal also, so we know that these intelligences were male and female. God didn't create that either. There must have been substance enough to identify gender. Milton and Roberts didn't have access to this proclamation, who knows how,they would have modified their "theories", if at all, if they had it.
It is the blessed privilege of resurrected beings who attain an exaltation in the celestial kingdom to enjoy the glory of endless increase, to become the parents of generations of spirit-offspring
Again, true, but it doesn't explain how that occurs. So, here's the situation. We have God amongst an innumerable multitude of intelligenes/spirits. They cannot be made nor created and somehow he becomes their Father. It can't be through sexual relations because they already exist. Therefore these spirit-offspring must come by a different kind of birth that does not include sexual relations. Once again, where do we see that in our mortal existence. Galatians 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith" and how did they become sons of God? "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ". That doesn't sound like sexual relations and they were "clothed" in this process as well. Was it physical? No. It was spiritual. Beings who already exist, through Baptism, were spiritually clothed in Christ. No woman, no sex.

It seems pretty simple to me. And then we have the problem of how Adam and Eve were born. We've already identified that Adam and Eve were not made from dirt any differently than we are made from dirt. Who were their parents? What other birth process are we aware of where an actual physical body is produced? Well, that is through sexual relations.

Now, what you are proposing is that the same beings can both produce spirits and physical bodies the same way. Does the woman in heaven have an ovary sack for spirits and another for humans and that anytime they have sex, they might not know what's going to pop out? the simplest explanation is probably the most correct. They have sex to have actual babies and they invite and commit already existing spirits to follow them. That pattern fits the pattern of religious life that we already live in and understand. It most likely is correct.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
We did... quotes from Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith and others.
Quoting them and understanding what they said are two different things. For example, Brigham Young never said they had sex to produce spirit children, neither has anyone else but our critics.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Quoting them and understanding what they said are two different things. For example, Brigham Young never said they had sex to produce spirit children, neither has anyone else but our critics.
Yes, he did. He said it happens the same way it does here. Are you trying to pick that apart, like you do the word of wisdom, to make it fit your own ideas?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
How about ”an ex-POW could not possibly teach others anything about being a POW. “
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Yes. I'm sure they can. I'm sure every POW survived has a different story. You can tell me about your experiences as an ex-Mormon, but don't try to tell me what mine are.
It is just a ridiculous mindset, but it is necessary for the testimony by most Mormons I have talked with
Sorry. I just don't believe you talked with very many that don't have the same mindset you have.
I certainly held that view as a Mormon…
Yes. I can accept that you have had this mindset for a very long time. But that's your mindset, your conclusions. That doesn't make them right.
if anyone member leaves the church, and speaks out negatively about ”the church”…they are an apostate and lacking clarity and never had a “real testimony.”
Well, for sure they would have the mindset that you have, maybe a different experience, but certainly the same mindset. If 7.5billion people all had the same mindset you have, it wouldn't make it right. I'm just saying, you're wrong and I'm right. And until you pull a statement by a GA who said that spirit babies are born through sexual relations, you will continue to be wrong.
The GA fairly recently had to make a statement that Members can leave and/or doubt for real reasons
Or, maybe he just said, you can leave for whatever reason you manage the makeup. I'm sure he wasn't saying, Oops, we were wrong and all you apostates were right. 😭 Do you think?
because members were leaving or going inactive because of the attitudes expressed from members like BoJ.
Be real. It's not about members' attitudes like mine. You all leave because of attitudes like yours. ;)

I don't care if you leave. I think you could do better, but you'll be alright. I'm not concerned about your salvation one wit. As I've explained and collaborated with the scriptures, you might still have a chance. Maybe God blinded you so you couldn't see the truth and let you stumble around in the darkness being the angry ex-Mormon. Maybe that is all done on purpose.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Yes, he did.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
No, He didn't.
He said it happens the same way it does here.
And what happens when you have sex here? You produce a physical baby. No one "here" has ever had sex and produced a spirit. Or maybe you don't know what happens when people have sex here. Do you?
Are you trying to pick that apart
No. But it looks like you are.
like you do the word of wisdom
The word of wisdom is still in tact. The reasoning offered in this forum isn't but the word of wisdom is.
and make it fit your own ideas?
Nah. I believe they fit the church's ideas.
 

Markk

Active member
I don't know. Neither does anyone else. I believe there are some people who came up with some ideas, some "theories", but they aren't doctrine. ;)
They are teachings, which is doctrine. The “people“ that taught it are GA…prophets and apostles. The manuals are by GA correlation. Words like Beget, begotten, offspring, parents, infants, children, born, raised to maturity, reared, father, mother, all lead to one end BoJ.

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

Every person who was ever born on earth is our spirit brother or sister. Because we are the spirit children of God, we have inherited the potential to develop His divine qualities. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become like our Heavenly Father and receive a fulness of joy. Current GP manual
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
No, He didn't.

And what happens when you have sex here? You produce a physical baby. No one "here" has ever had sex and produced a spirit. Or maybe you don't know what happens when people have sex here. Do you?
Dont be a jerk.

No. But it looks like you are.

The word of wisdom is still in tact. The reasoning offered in this forum isn't but the word of wisdom is.

Nah. I believe they fit the church's ideas.
Your ideas are not mormonism.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
They are teachings, which is doctrine.
That's your definition, it's not the church's. They are theories, not doctrine. As I said, no one knows how spirits are formed, born, or begotten. That's a fact. And so far, not a single one of the theories you produced says that spirits are born through sexual relations.
Words like Beget, begotten, offspring, parents, infants, children, born, raised to maturity, reared, father, mother, all lead to one end BoJ.
Apparently, you aren't paying attention. I realized that you only see one end. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

Markk

Active member
That's your definition, it's not the church's. They are theories, not doctrine. As I said, no one knows how spirits are formed, born, or begotten. That's a fact. And so far, not a single one of the theories you produced says that spirits are born through sexual relations.
They are taught in teaching manuals. Offspring, born, beget, begotten, etc….as with man, all imply this BoJ. Sorry, I don’t believe it either. You said these spirtis ask for help to HF to become his child…which is really a stretch in regards to what is taught in the teaching manuals.

According to LDS teachings celestial sex is eternal, that is taught. Marriage is eternal also. Plural marriage is eternal. Joseph Smiths religion is based on a very active sexual lifestyle. Most of the founders of Mormonism were basically “love machines” with multiple wives and children, which is a model of eternity. Sexual organs were and are blessed in the Temple. Sex was the driving force of Mormonism and Joseph Smith, and it is the basis of section 132 and is the means to the end of the “continuation of seeds” and “the everlasting covenant.“

In the early temple endowments they basically put one in a tub naked and washed their private parts to be kings and priests and queens and priestess BoJ.


Wake up. Like my OP title reads, it is a “truth” that is not dealt with well by many Mormons…but there is no doubt what this all leads too.
 

Markk

Active member
Apparently, you aren't paying attention. I realized that you only see one end. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Why are men and women’s private parts washed? The original endowment reads that it was to prepare you for the Celestial Kingdom. That is why they physically washed and anointed men and women’s body parts BoJ. All the words like offspring, born, begotten, etc are to be taken literally.

Sorry but sex is a huge part of LDS doctrine, and to say it has no eternal being is just sticking your head in the sand.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The crass and ignorant comments are more evidence that you think you can get away with whatever you want. No rules for you. As long as you’re married.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Ok. If you say so, but I really don't think it matters what you think. You still missed the point.

The fact is you used a statement that things happen in heaven as they happen here on earth without thinking it through. If that statement is true, then no one has spirit babies in heaven. You stepped off into the deep end and got in over your head. It was hard to resist the opportunity to point out your blunder. You seem especially sensitive about it but the fact remains, if we don't have spirit babies here, then doing the same thing, having sex, there isn't going to produce spirit babies.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
They are taught in teaching manuals. Offspring, born, beget, begotten, etc….as with man, all imply this BoJ. Sorry, I don’t believe it either.
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
It appears that you do beleive it or you wouldn't be trying to convince me that I believe it or that my church teaches it. It doesn't. I'm still waiting for that GA statement that these spirits are born through sexual relations. :rolleyes: I think I've demonstrated that birth, born, begotten, offspring does not necessarily occur through sexual relations. In fact, it appears that within the scriptures, spiritual birth is never about sexual relations and never has been. And we are talking about spirits, so.... Well, I don't expect you to connect the dots, but a being who has no beginning and no ending cannot be born through sexual relations. ;)
According to LDS teachings celestial sex is eternal,
So? Have I ever denied that sex is eternal?
Marriage is eternal also.
Yes. Marriage is eternal when sealed by proper authority. Great so far.
Plural marriage is eternal.
Same thing as above. If Marriage is eternal then no matter how many you are married to, that would be eternal also.
Joseph Smiths religion is based on a very active sexual lifestyle.
Talk about pointless points. :rolleyes:
Most of the founders of Mormonism were basically “love machines” with multiple wives and children, which is a model of eternity. Sexual organs were and are blessed in the Temple. Sex was the driving force of Mormonism and Joseph Smith, and it is the basis of section 132 and is the means to the end of the “continuation of seeds” and “the everlasting covenant.“
Okay, whatever... :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
In the early temple endowments they basically put one in a tub naked and washed their private parts to be kings and priests and queens and priestess BoJ.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Wake up. Like my OP title reads
Wake up yourself. You can't believe everything an anti-Mormon tells you about what we believe or do. I'm curious. Do you have a video of those washings?
 
Top