And again, another Trinitarian blunder

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
“I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another." Isaiah 42:8

Trinitarian: "Oh look, Jesus is God."

Except your Bible tells you that the Father said that.

17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
18 “Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He shall proclaim justice to the nations.

Matthew 12:17-18

Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I will put
My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 “He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 “A bruised reed He will not break
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
4 “He will not be disheartened or crushed
Until He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.”

5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
6 “I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
8 “I am the Lord, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another.


So the Bible tells us plainly that the Father said this, the FATHER who put HIS Spirit upon Jesus.

So, Trinitarians, THE FATHER said He won't give His glory to anyone? Do tell.

Trinitarians, do you want to try again?
 
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jamesh

Active member
Watch how I dismantle your argument by turning it around on you. Since God will not give His glory to another then explain/reconcile why Jesus said the following at John 17:5? "And now, glorify Thou Me TOGETHER with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."

Remember, your the one (along with others around here) that say Jesus was created and did not preexist until He incarnated as a man so how could He have had glory with the Father before the world was? Secondly, now pay attention to this fact. God said at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, (remember Jesus was formed in Mary's womb) I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out THE EARTH ALL ALONE."

So, again, how did Jesus have glory with the Father "BEFORE" the earth was formed per John 17:5? Also, how could Jesus have according to John 1:3, "All things came into being BY HIM, and apart (or without Him) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Explain or reconcile all of this with (according to you) Jesus never preexisted His birth and yet He still is credited with creating "ALL THINGS?"

Colossians 1:15-16 backs this up along with God His Father backing it up at Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 backs it up. So, "our lord's god" when God says He created all alone and all by Himself, is He telling the truth? Why would He need the help of a created being by some guy named Jesus?

In Him,
herman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Watch how I dismantle your argument by turning it around on you. Since God will not give His glory to another then explain/reconcile why Jesus said the following at John 17:5? "And now, glorify Thou Me TOGETHER with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS."

So then, are you denying the FATHER was speaking at Isaiah 42:1-8 as the New Testament tells us?


Remember, your the one (along with others around here) that say Jesus was created and did not preexist until He incarnated as a man so how could He have had glory with the Father before the world was? Secondly, now pay attention to this fact. God said at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, (remember Jesus was formed in Mary's womb) I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out THE EARTH ALL ALONE."

So, again, how did Jesus have glory with the Father "BEFORE" the earth was formed per John 17:5? Also, how could Jesus have according to John 1:3, "All things came into being BY HIM, and apart (or without Him) NOTHING came into being that has come into being." Explain or reconcile all of this with (according to you) Jesus never preexisted His birth and yet He still is credited with creating "ALL THINGS?"

Colossians 1:15-16 backs this up along with God His Father backing it up at Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 backs it up. So, "our lord's god" when God says He created all alone and all by Himself, is He telling the truth? Why would He need the help of a created being by some guy named Jesus?

In Him,
herman


Was Isaiah 42:8 spoken "before the world was"? OR after?
 
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jamesh

Active member
First of all, your an "amateur" and I can prove it. Why at Isaiah 42 are you "assuming" that God the Father is speaking? Do you see the word "Father" in the text, no.

And to make matters even worse for you, look at Isaiah 42:5. It says, "Thus says God the Lord." So what does God the Lord say at Isaiah 42:7, "To open blind eyes, (incidentally, you can put your name here mr. blind man) To bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and those who dwell in darkness from the prison," Vs8, "I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praises to graven images."

Specifically, from verse 7, who do you think this refers to? Luke 4:17-18, "And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him/Jesus, and He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, vs18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind." Part of this prophecy is from Isaiah 61:1-2.

Btw, I believe this was all spoken after the creation of the world. Do you have any other "tuff" questions? Now, how about you addressing what I wrote in my other post, or should I say let's see you try and refute it.

In Him,
herman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
First of all, your an "amateur" and I can prove it. Why at Isaiah 42 are you "assuming" that God the Father is speaking? Do you see the word "Father" in the text, no.

I am not assuming. The NT tells me it is the Father when Matthew quotes Isaiah 42 to refer to the FATHER putting HIS Spirit upon Jesus.

17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

18 “Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,

Matthew 12:18

Whose servant? Whose Beloved? Whose Spirit placed upon Jesus?

Now why are you ignoring this PLAIN FACT?


And to make matters even worse for you, look at Isaiah 42:5. It says, "Thus says God the Lord." So what does God the Lord say at Isaiah 42:7, "To open blind eyes, (incidentally, you can put your name here mr. blind man) To bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and those who dwell in darkness from the prison," Vs8, "I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praises to graven images."

Specifically, from verse 7, who do you think this refers to? Luke 4:17-18, "And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him/Jesus, and He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, vs18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind." Part of this prophecy is from Isaiah 61:1-2.

Btw, I believe this was all spoken after the creation of the world. Do you have any other "tuff" questions? Now, how about you addressing what I wrote in my other post, or should I say let's see you try and refute it.

In Him,
herman
 

jamesh

Active member
I am not assuming. The NT tells me it is the Father when Matthew quotes Isaiah 42 to refer to the FATHER putting HIS Spirit upon Jesus.

17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

18 “Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen;
My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased;
I will put My Spirit upon Him,

Matthew 12:18

Whose servant? Whose Beloved? Whose Spirit placed upon Jesus?

Now why are you ignoring this PLAIN FACT?
Wait a minute there buster. At Isaiah 42 or at Isaiah 44 and at numerous other places it always says "The Lord God or God " said this or that. The OT saints were looking forward to the Messiah whereas we look backward. This is because you interpret the NT in light of the OT because the NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

The Jews were expecting a "political" Messiah and never picked up on the fact that the Messiah was God Himself. So when you ask your question it from the view point of fulfilled prophecy. Not only that but the word "Father" (in the OT) was only used in connection to God the Father as their creator.

Now that we have the fulfillment of the NT and the words of Jesus Christ/Messiah we can understand why He would say (at least some of us) He had glory with the Father before the world was at John 17:5. Moreover, Jesus showed His glory to three of the disciples at His Transfiguration. At Isaiah 44:24 God claims he is the Redeemer. Was not Jesus the Redeemer as well? All the pieces fit together perfectly from the prophecies of the OT to their fulfillment in the NT.

In Him,
herman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Wait a minute there buster. At Isaiah 42 or at Isaiah 44 and at numerous other places it always says "The Lord God or God " said this or that. The OT saints were looking forward to the Messiah whereas we look backward. This is because you interpret the NT in light of the OT because the NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

This doesn't help you out of your problem.

The Jews were expecting a "political" Messiah and never picked up on the fact that the Messiah was God Himself. So when you ask your question it from the view point of fulfilled prophecy. Not only that but the word "Father" (in the OT) was only used in connection to God the Father as their creator.

This doesn't help you out of your problem.

Now that we have the fulfillment of the NT and the words of Jesus Christ/Messiah we can understand why He would say (at least some of us) He had glory with the Father before the world was at John 17:5. Moreover, Jesus showed His glory to three of the disciples at His Transfiguration. At Isaiah 44:24 God claims he is the Redeemer. Was not Jesus the Redeemer as well? All the pieces fit together perfectly from the prophecies of the OT to their fulfillment in the NT.

In Him,
herman

This doesn't help you out of your problem.

The New Testament tells us quite plainly that it was the FATHER speaking at Isaiah 42:1-8.

17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18 “Here is My servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved, in whom I delight;
I will put My Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Matthew 12:18 quoting Isaiah 42:1ff.

Whose servant? The Father's.
Whose beloved? The Father's.
Whose Spirit was put upon him? The Father's.
 

jamesh

Active member
Oh boy, I don't have the problem, you do. I completely get the fact that the Father is speaking of His only begotten Son. I'm trying to tell you that the OT Saints/prophets etc. did not realize the Son/Messiah was going to be God the Father's literal Son as in having the same nature as His Father.

And this is where you have the problem because you cannot explain how it is the Son had glory with His Father before the world was even created. Remember, you say Jesus is created and since you believe it then explain John 17:5? Explain John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14, all crediting the Son with creation.

And of course the Son is subject to the Father because the Son became a man according to Philippians 2:5-10. He lowered Himself etc. How are you going to explain all these facts away? And don't forget the "Transfiguration."

In Him,
herman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Oh boy, I don't have the problem, you do. I completely get the fact that the Father is speaking of His only begotten Son.

So then you AGREE that it is the FATHER speaking at Isaiah 42:8, correct?

I'm trying to tell you that the OT Saints/prophets etc. did not realize the Son/Messiah was going to be God the Father's literal Son as in having the same nature as His Father.

So what?

And this is where you have the problem because you cannot explain how it is the Son had glory with His Father before the world was even created. Remember, you say Jesus is created and since you believe it then explain John 17:5? Explain John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14, all crediting the Son with creation.

And of course the Son is subject to the Father because the Son became a man according to Philippians 2:5-10. He lowered Himself etc. How are you going to explain all these facts away? And don't forget the "Transfiguration."

In Him,
herman

You interpret Isaiah 42:8 to mean the speaker refuses to give His glory to anyone.

Now that you have admitted the speaker at Isaiah 42:8 is the Father, what are you going to do?
 

jamesh

Active member
What I'm going to do is ask you for a third time now, how it is Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was since you say God the Father will not give His glory to another? Especially in view of the fact that Jesus Christ is clearly identified as the creator by the verses I provided. How about answering for a change mr. so what?

In Him,
herman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
What I'm going to do is ask you for a third time now, how it is Jesus Christ had glory with the Father before the world was since you say God the Father will not give His glory to another?

He isn't talking about a glory he had with the Father before the beginning of creation. He is talking about the glory he had with the Father in the previous verse, lit. in Greek "the glory I was having before the the world to be alongside you."

But that is irrelevant. One verse is not going to nullify another verse which is what you are attempting to do.

Especially in view of the fact that Jesus Christ is clearly identified as the creator by the verses I provided. How about answering for a change mr. so what?

In Him,
herman

You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to help you concerning Isaiah 42:8. You have the Father speaking and you interpret the verse to mean the Father refuses to give His glory to anyone. That is an inescapable problem for you.

Not only so, "I have given them the glory that You gave me." John 17:22 Now what?

The speaker at Isaiah 42:8 won't give His glory to ANYONE? Please wake up.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
He isn't talking about a glory he had with the Father before the beginning of creation. He is talking about the glory he had with the Father in the previous verse, lit. in Greek "the glory I was having before the the world to be alongside you."

But that is irrelevant. One verse is not going to nullify another verse which is what you are attempting to do.



You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to help you concerning Isaiah 42:8. You have the Father speaking and you interpret the verse to mean the Father refuses to give His glory to anyone. That is an inescapable problem for you.

Not only so, "I have given them the glory that You gave me." John 17:22 Now what?

The speaker at Isaiah 42:8 won't give His glory to ANYONE? Please wake up.
But God His glory to His SON.
 

Tanachreader

Active member
He isn't talking about a glory he had with the Father before the beginning of creation. He is talking about the glory he had with the Father in the previous verse, lit. in Greek "the glory I was having before the the world to be alongside you."

But that is irrelevant. One verse is not going to nullify another verse which is what you are attempting to do.



You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to help you concerning Isaiah 42:8. You have the Father speaking and you interpret the verse to mean the Father refuses to give His glory to anyone. That is an inescapable problem for you.

Not only so, "I have given them the glory that You gave me." John 17:22 Now what?

The speaker at Isaiah 42:8 won't give His glory to ANYONE? Please wake up.
What is the glory Jesus gave them.
Be specific.
 
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