Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

Towerwatchman

Active member
Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

Gen 16:7 Now the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 The Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”13 Then she called the name of the LORD {YHWH} who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called vBeer Lahai Roi; observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered. [NKJV]

  • From the text, it is obvious that Hagar is talking to a man vs a pillar of fire or the Shekinah glory. There is nothing in the text that indicates Hagar is talking to thin air.
  • In vs 10, the Man spoke in terms of Him doing things only God can do.
  • Note it is the same promise YHWH made to Abraham in 15:5. By the promise the Man’s deity is made clear because no created creature can speak so; it is YHWH.
  • Vs 11. YHWH on earth speaks of another YHWH having compassion for Hagar.
  • Vs 13. Hagar identifies the one who she has seen and conversed with as YHWH.
  • Jesus states that no one has seen or heard The Father.
  • Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
  • Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
  • We have Jesus [YHWH] in vs 10, speaking about YHWH in heaven. = Muti personal God.

 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
We have Jesus [YHWH] in vs 10, speaking about YHWH in heaven. = Muti personal God.

I believe YHWH on earth and YHWH in Heaven are the SAME PERSON just as the Son of man on earth and the Son of man in Heaven are the SAME PERSON.

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you believe John 3:13 proves the Son of man is more than one Person?

If not, then the other verse doesn’t prove YHWH is more than one person either.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
11 And the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction.

You say God is one of four or five nouns...

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature

A) Which noun is YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?

B) Which noun is YHWH here... "the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction"?
 

101G

Well-known member
this topic is the most ignorant one I have seen yet, this is classic, JW, propaganda. now God is an angle. but in another topic, "God, (YHWH), purchased the church with His blood". now angels have blood.

I will not respond to this topic any more, this one time was just to expose the lunacy of it.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
I believe YHWH on earth and YHWH in Heaven are the SAME PERSON just as the Son of man on earth and the Son of man in Heaven are the SAME PERSON.

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you believe John 3:13 proves the Son of man is more than one Person?

If not, then the other verse doesn’t prove YHWH is more than one person either.
There is a difference. John 3:13 Jesus states that He is the same person, [center of consciousness] that is on earth at that time that came down from heaven.

Note what it says in the Genesis account. “ …the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction…”. The Angel of the Lord, who stated He will do things only God can do,’ states that another individual identified as YHWH has heard Hagar. For your scenario to work the Angel of the Lord should have stated that He has heard Hagar.

You say God is one of four or five nouns...

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature

Intent before content. Now you are mocking what I wrote before. I wrote that when discussing the Trinity, =three centers of consciousness within one being we have four nouns. Father, Son, HS, and the being God. Unity of plurality. Ever heard the term “Family of four.” How many nouns do you have? = 5. See if you can figure this out. Draw the outline of a cube, how many nouns do you have? Let me help you. 19 ==1 cube =6 squares =12 lines.

A) Which noun is YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?
According to Jesus no one has seen or heard the father. Note what Hagar said.
“Then she called the name of the LORD {YHWH} who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?”
A simple process of elimination. No one has seen the HS and no one has heard the Father. Conclusion = Jesus



B) Which noun is YHWH here... "the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction"?
Could be the Father, HS, or both. The text does not specify.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
this topic is the most ignorant one I have seen yet, this is classic, JW, propaganda. now God is an angle. but in another topic, "God, (YHWH), purchased the church with His blood". now angels have blood.

I will not respond to this topic any more, this one time was just to expose the lunacy of it.

PICJAG, 101G.
For some dumb reason, you think I am a JW. LOL Hint =they are anti-Trinitarians and anti deity of Christ.

What you have posted is simple an ad hominem attack.

It simply attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making. This is usually the last position of ignorance knowing that it cannot compete with the intelligence and character of X, it is usually a sign of desperation on the part of the one insulting. [Logically Fallacious]
 

101G

Well-known member
For some dumb reason, you think I am a JW. LOL Hint =they are anti-Trinitarians and anti deity of Christ.

What you have posted is simple an ad hominem attack.

It simply attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making. This is usually the last position of ignorance knowing that it cannot compete with the intelligence and character of X, it is usually a sign of desperation on the part of the one insulting. [Logically Fallacious]
ERROR, the doctrinr is what I'm at, just like yours.... (smile)... LOL, LOL, LOL.

see, you cannot reconcicle John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24...... who is the same ONE person..... (lol)... :eek: YIKES!.

good day...... next.

PICJAG, 101G
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
ERROR, the doctrinr is what I'm at, just like yours.... (smile)... LOL, LOL, LOL.

see, you cannot reconcicle John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24...... who is the same ONE person..... (lol)... :eek: YIKES!.

good day...... next.

PICJAG, 101G
Jn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Is 44:24 Thus says the Lord {YHWH}, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord [YHWH], who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens [a]all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Both are referring to Jesus. Isaiah identifies the Redeemer who created all as YHWH. So what is your point?

What does this red herring have to do with the OP?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Which noun is YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?
A simple process of elimination. No one has seen the HS and no one has heard the Father. Conclusion = Jesus

So according to your Trinitarian view...

"the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her" means "the Angel of Jesus said to her".

Maybe (or maybe not) you overlooked that I asked...

Which noun is YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?

Whereas I did NOT ask...

Which noun is the Angel of YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?

So just to verify you understood my precise question

Which noun goes in the blank?
"the Angel of ______________ said to her“

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature
6) the first and third centers of consciousness
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
So according to your Trinitarian view...

"the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her" means "the Angel of Jesus said to her".

Maybe (or maybe not) you overlooked that I asked...

Which noun is YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?

Whereas I did NOT ask...

Which noun is the Angel of YHWH here... "the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her"?

So just to verify you understood my precise question

Which noun goes in the blank?
"the Angel of ______________ said to her“

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature
6) the first and third centers of consciousness
Now you play dumb. Read the account Moses identifies the one speaking as Yhwh and Hagar identifies the one she saw as Whwh.
What you wrote above is childish.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

Gen 16:7 Now the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 The Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”13 Then she called the name of the LORD {YHWH} who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called vBeer Lahai Roi; observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered. [NKJV]

  • From the text, it is obvious that Hagar is talking to a man vs a pillar of fire or the Shekinah glory. There is nothing in the text that indicates Hagar is talking to thin air.
  • In vs 10, the Man spoke in terms of Him doing things only God can do.
  • Note it is the same promise YHWH made to Abraham in 15:5. By the promise the Man’s deity is made clear because no created creature can speak so; it is YHWH.
  • Vs 11. YHWH on earth speaks of another YHWH having compassion for Hagar.
  • Vs 13. Hagar identifies the one who she has seen and conversed with as YHWH.
  • Jesus states that no one has seen or heard The Father.
  • Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
  • Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
  • We have Jesus [YHWH] in vs 10, speaking about YHWH in heaven. = Muti personal God.

yes :
Note the Hebrew word for angel is also translated as messenger



The Messenger of Yahweh is God.

Exodus 3 and on
Genesis 22:10 and on
Gen 28:13 > Genesis 31:13
Judges 13 :8 -23 goes to Isaiah 9:6


The Messenger of Yahweh is distinct from God
Zechariah 1:12
Zechariah 3 to Hebrews 7: 25 and 1 John 2:1
1 Timothy 1:16 + John 1:18 Isaiah 6:1> John 12:41
Colossians 1:15

The Messenger of Yahweh Jesus Christ
John 1:18>Isaiah 6:1> John 12:41
Not Matthew 1:20 nor Acts 12:7
Revelation 22:8-9 and Exodus 3:5 and Joshua 5:15

 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Now you play dumb. Read the account Moses identifies the one speaking as Yhwh and Hagar identifies the one she saw as Whwh.
What you wrote above is childish.

Are you seriously unable to answer the question...

Which noun goes in the blank?
"the Angel of ______________ said to her“

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature
6) the first and third centers of consciousness
7) other, please explain
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Are you seriously unable to answer the question...

Which noun goes in the blank?
"the Angel of ______________ said to her“

1) first center of consciousness
2) second center of consciousness
3) third center of consciousness
4) the divine being
5) the divine nature
6) the first and third centers of consciousness
7) other, please explain
No, I refuse to play stupid games. Come back with something substantial and serious.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].
No. There is nothing in the bible to suggest it. Angels in the capacity of agents of YHWH spoke YHWH's own words. They referred to themselves as YHWH because they communicated his words and acted with his power. Just because they were messengers didn't mean that they were more than angels.
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
No. There is nothing in the bible to suggest it. Angels in the capacity of agents of YHWH spoke YHWH's own words. They referred to themselves as YHWH because they communicated his words and acted with his power. Just because they were messengers didn't mean that they were more than angels.
For argument sake let's say you are right. How do you reconcile your reasoning with Vs 13, Hagar identifies the one who she has seen and conversed with as YHWH.
 

cjab

Well-known member
For argument sake let's say you are right. How do you reconcile your reasoning with Vs 13, Hagar identifies the one who she has seen and conversed with as YHWH.
Because to converse with the messenger of God is the same as to converse with God, given that God lives in unapproachable light. 1 Timothy 6:16

Jn 14:9 "Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.…"
 

Towerwatchman

Active member
Because to converse with the messenger of God is the same as to converse with God, given that God lives in unapproachable light. 1 Timothy 6:16

Jn 14:9 "Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.…"
Its in plain Hebrew. Hagar states that she saw and conversed with YHWH. Notice nothing in the narrative hints to your answer. The narrative is literal, nothing in the text is metaphoric. If Hagar conversed and saw anyone other than God I believe that Moses, under the inspiration of the HS, would have wrote so. Why, because that would have been the truth. Your idea hints towards deception.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Its in plain Hebrew. Hagar states that she saw and conversed with YHWH. Notice nothing in the narrative hints to your answer. The narrative is literal, nothing in the text is metaphoric. If Hagar conversed and saw anyone other than God I believe that Moses, under the inspiration of the HS, would have wrote so. Why, because that would have been the truth. Your idea hints towards deception.
No more deception that Jesus saying "Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father." There is no deception in an express agent calling himself by his principal's name, or a third party identifying the agent as the principal. The principle of agency allows this to happen. It happens all the time by the consent of the law. It's known as the law of agency. There is only a deception if the agent is not acting for the principal.

In fact Hagar would be the one deceiving if she intended it literally, because "God lives in unapproachable light." Not even Moses could see the face of God. The context clearly discloses she was referring to an angel. She would be lying if she were not.

Moreover it a deception to say that an angel is Jesus manifested. There is no authority for such a statement. Jesus is not a god-man who flits between the throne of God and earth like an angel. I fear you don't grasp the nature of divinity, which is enthronement and absolute sovereign power over everything. Why would Jesus come to earth if he could send any of millions of angels to do it?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Its in plain Hebrew. Hagar states that she saw and conversed with YHWH. Notice nothing in the narrative hints to your answer. The narrative is literal, nothing in the text is metaphoric. If Hagar conversed and saw anyone other than God I believe that Moses, under the inspiration of the HS, would have wrote so. Why, because that would have been the truth. Your idea hints towards deception.
Here is what destroys what you are trying to build up to with this theory of the flesh, for none of the inspired writers of the NT ever told us that these visitations were Jesus in a pre existing state of being and furthermore, the writer of Hebrews very clearly reveals that God never spoke to anyone in the OT by his Son Jesus Christ.

As far as it being Yahweh who appeared unto Hagar, it was but only from within the angel of the Lord who he appeared unto her through, so it is in plain Hebrew alright but it still doesn't mean that Hagar saw Yahweh in his full glory but rather within a created celestial body.

By the way, in Zechariah 1:12, the angel of the Lord asks Yahweh how long he would withhold his mercy from Jerusalem and the towns of Judah and this also totally destroys your theory that the angel of the Lord was Jesus in the OT and it also destroys your theory that the Angel was Yahweh as well.

Zechariah 1:12 Then the angel of the Lord said, “Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?”

Now then what was that you said about my posts being dumb? I think you better look again at your own dude, for I just proved right from the scriptures that you are teaching a private interpretation of scripture with your false idea that the angel of the Lord was Jesus or Yahweh and 2 Peter 2:1-2 calls all such who do this false prophets also.
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I believe YHWH on earth and YHWH in Heaven are the SAME PERSON just as the Son of man on earth and the Son of man in Heaven are the SAME PERSON.

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you believe John 3:13 proves the Son of man is more than one Person?

If not, then the other verse doesn’t prove YHWH is more than one person either.
I think you better examine the original text for John 3:13, for the words "even the son of man who is in heaven" are not in the most reliable manuscripts.

You also need to read Zechariah 1:12 below as well, for the Angel of the Lord was not Yahweh or Jesus and this proves it also.

12 Then the angel of the Lord said, “Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?”
 
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