Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
yes :
Note the Hebrew word for angel is also translated as messenger



The Messenger of Yahweh is God.

Exodus 3 and on
Genesis 22:10 and on
Gen 28:13 > Genesis 31:13
Judges 13 :8 -23 goes to Isaiah 9:6


The Messenger of Yahweh is distinct from God
Zechariah 1:12
Zechariah 3 to Hebrews 7: 25 and 1 John 2:1
1 Timothy 1:16 + John 1:18 Isaiah 6:1> John 12:41
Colossians 1:15

The Messenger of Yahweh Jesus Christ
John 1:18>Isaiah 6:1> John 12:41
Not Matthew 1:20 nor Acts 12:7
Revelation 22:8-9 and Exodus 3:5 and Joshua 5:15

The messenger of Yahweh in Zechariah 1:12 doesn't know all things and this would have been before he emptied himself as in your false doctrine about God becoming a man, so why didn't Yahweh the second person of your trinity know all things in the OT?

That is the big problem for your theory on this above dude.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No. There is nothing in the bible to suggest it. Angels in the capacity of agents of YHWH spoke YHWH's own words. They referred to themselves as YHWH because they communicated his words and acted with his power. Just because they were messengers didn't mean that they were more than angels.
You are right and which makes it a private interpretation of scripture according to Peters words in 2 Peter 1:20-21 and which makes the one promoting it also a false prophet and as Peter went on to say in 2 Peter 2:1-2.

Furthermore in John 14:6-10 Jesus was speaking on behalf of his Father Yahweh God when he said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father and "have I been so long with you and you still don't know me Philipp", for Jesus explained what he was doing in saying that in verse 10, for the Father Yahweh was dwelling within Jesus and revealing himself through him and giving him the words to speak also.

So when Philipp said "show us the Father and it will be sufficient" and Jesus answered "have I been so long with you and yet you have not known me", he was saying this because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus and therefore Jesus was speaking for the Father when he said all of this.

It is really quite a shame how easily and quickly false doctrines can take away any God given intelligence that one has been given when he believes it and teaches it and many of the arguments posted here on this forum bear witness to this fact also.
 
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jamesh

Active member
No, I refuse to play stupid games. Come back with something substantial and serious.
I'm glad to see you stopped playing games with yachristian. He did not once address your initial thread, "The angel of the Lord." He changed the subject right at the get go so don't fall for his constant rabbit trails.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The messenger of Yahweh in Zechariah 1:12 doesn't know all things and this would have been before he emptied himself as in your false doctrine about God becoming a man, so why didn't Yahweh the second person of your trinity know all things in the OT?

That is the big problem for your theory on this above dude.

That is NOT a big problem at all
its a statement of lament : not a question searching for an answer.​
Number 14:11 The LORD (Yahweh) said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?​
and there are dozens of examples of question like that from the omniscient God Almighty.​
Your point fails​

That was easy
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
No. There is nothing in the bible to suggest it. Angels in the capacity of agents of YHWH spoke YHWH's own words. They referred to themselves as YHWH because they communicated his words and acted with his power. Just because they were messengers didn't mean that they were more than angels.
Genesis 48:16 the Angel who has redeemed me from all harm—
Are Angles redeemers?
 

jamesh

Active member
No. There is nothing in the bible to suggest it. Angels in the capacity of agents of YHWH spoke YHWH's own words. They referred to themselves as YHWH because they communicated his words and acted with his power. Just because they were messengers didn't mean that they were more than angels.
The answer I'm about to give is not only for you cjab, it's for 101G as well. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." And yes, it can mean an actual angel but it is the context that determines the meaning. For instance at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (who do you think that is?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think the messenger of the covenant is?)

The angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. He's a human "messenger" Just read Mark 1:1-4. And btw, the prophet "Malachi" who is human, well his name is from the Hebrew word "malak" and of course he's a human being and not an angel.

Now, lets look at Genesis 16, starting at vs7, This is the first reference of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord. "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. Paraphrasing, Vs8, "Hagar is fleeing her mistress Sarai. Vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to return to her mistress." Vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count."

Vs11, "The angel of the Lord said she is with child, a son. Vs12, "He will be a wild donkey of a man etc. The Arabs today are his descendants. Vs13, The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees;" for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" (And as a side note Ishmael is where the Arabs came from).

At Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Here's a question? Is the being, the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who was identified as God Almighty who multiplied Abraham's descendant at Genesis 17:1-2? Think about it?

Moving on to Genesis 18, it says at vs1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Paraphrasing again. "Vs2, Abraham sees three men. Vs3-6, Abraham offers water to wash their feet and food to eat. Vs9, Abraham was asked where his wife was? Vs10, And HE SAID, "I will surely return to you at this time next year, and behold, your wife Sarah shall have a son."

Vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, why did Sarah laugh etc.? Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? One of the men was the angel of the Lord and the other two men were actual angles. Look at Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place." Genesis 19:1, "Now the TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in gate of Sodom, etc.

Moving on to Genesis 22. Vs1, God tested Abraham. Vs9, "Then they came to the place of which GOD had told him; and Abraham built the altar there etc. Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son from Me." Vs13-14, God supplies Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, (side note, Abraham had an older son named Ishmael by Hagar who was older than Isaac).

Vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Some make the claim that the angel of the Lord is speaking on God's behalf. (Like you cjab). He's the agent or in Hebrew a "shaliach." This is known at the "Jewish Law of Agency." The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, (the principal.) In this case your "positing" that the angel of the Lord, the agent is acting for the principal who is God. There is one BIG problem why in this case the law of agency does not apply.

Look at whatHebrews 6:13-14 has to say. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE He could not swear BY NO OTHER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, Vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Notice vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute."

In other words, in taking oaths, men swear by God who is greater than they are. They do so in order to convince other men that they are truthful and intend to abide by their promises. Also, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. If you saw a crime and were ask to testify what you saw, you can't send your Uncle Harry to wear that he saw it. In fact, even you could not appear in a court for some reason, i.e injured or hospitalized the court would send someone to "depose" you by sworn affidavit.

The bottom line, the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ serving as a messenger of God and as an intermediary on behalf of the nation of Israel. A real good example is at Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgad to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of the Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you." I'll be happy to answer any and all questions? (Some of the legal aspects of this was taken from the Jewish Virtual Library). PS: I just remembered that an angel can swear an oath on behalf of himself. Revelation 10:5-6.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
That is NOT a big problem at all
its a statement of lament : not a question searching for an answer.​
Number 14:11 The LORD (Yahweh) said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?​
and there are dozens of examples of question like that from the omniscient God Almighty.​
Your point fails​

That was easy
No but instead that is your human reasoning on it, because you just want to believe that the angel is Jesus in order to hold on to your false doctrine about it and despite the fact that in the book of Hebrews, the writer makes it very clear that God never spoke by Jesus his Son in the OT and nor did he ever call any OT angel his Son either.

Nevertheless you will very soon bear the responsibility for this, for you cannot willfully reject the inspired words of the writer of Hebrews and not suffer the consequences for it and especially when there are not other inspired by the Holy Spirit words of any other NT writer that revealed for us that the angel of the Lord was Jesus or Yahweh either.

Furthermore, there is a big difference between what God is doing with Moses in asking him how long the people would rebel, for God is wanting Moses to fully understand what he has to put up with concerning the Israelite so that Moses doesn't think that he is alone with their rejection of him also and become totally discouraged about it.

However that isn't the case in Zechariah with the Angel of the Lord if he truly was Yahweh God, for if the angel is Yahweh himself, he would already know what Yahweh was putting up with and it wouldn't make sense for him to ask Yahweh then how long Yahweh would withhold his mercy from Jerusalem and Judah for he would already know that being Yahweh himself.

However those who are apostates will continue to find every excuse they can in the Bible to continue to build their false faith about these things and all because they are addicted to their false doctrines like a hardliner drug addict is also addicted to his drugs.
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
yep:
The Angel of the LORD
aka the pre-incarnate Christ
Where in the inspired scriptures does any writer tell us that this was Jesus dude.

Furthermore, concerning your human reasoning excuse for Zechariah 1:12 in Numbers 14:11, how many times in the scriptures does God remind his minsters that it is him that the people are rebelling against and not those ministers?

That is what God is doing in Numbers 14:11 but the Angel of the Lord wouldn't need to be reminded of this, for he would already know it and he would especially know this if he was God and he would also know how long God was going to withhold his mercy from them as well and which again proves that the angel of the Lord was not Yahweh or Jesus.

If you trins really believe and have true confidence that Jesus is God and you have scriptures to prove this with, then why is it that you are looking in every passage you read for more proof of this as though you never have enough to be truly convinced?


To me this proves that you don't have true Bible faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the rhema of God and as per Paul in Romans 10:17, for the rhema is the word of God spoken into the heart from the scriptures by the Holy Spirit.

However, one cannot receive a rhema from God if they are misinterpreting the scriptures or adding to them what is not given within them like claiming that the Angel of the Lord is Yahweh or Jesus as Yahweh when no inspired writer of the scriptures ever wrote this as a fact and when the writer of Hebrews clearly told us that God never spoke in the OT by Jesus his Son and nor did he call any OT angel his Son either.

This should be all that it that it takes to get you to put on the brakes and just admit that there are things that are not fully explained unto us and so we will have to wait until we stand before God to get the explanations instead of becoming guilty of created private interpretations like you are doing with the angel of the Lord being Yahweh himself or Jesus as Yahweh himself.

Sorry but you don't have the authority on this from any inspired writer of scriptures and therefore you have made yourself a false prophet with a private interpretation not given by the Holy Spirit to any truly inspired writer of scripture and just like 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2:1-2 reveals also.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The answer I'm about to give is not only for you cjab, it's for 101G as well. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." And yes, it can mean an actual angel but it is the context that determines the meaning. For instance at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (who do you think that is?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think the messenger of the covenant is?)

The angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. He's a human "messenger" Just read Mark 1:1-4. And btw, the prophet "Malachi" who is human, well his name is from the Hebrew word "malak" and of course he's a human being and not an angel.

Now, lets look at Genesis 16, starting at vs7, This is the first reference of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord. "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. Paraphrasing, Vs8, "Hagar is fleeing her mistress Sarai. Vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to return to her mistress." Vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count."

Vs11, "The angel of the Lord said she is with child, a son. Vs12, "He will be a wild donkey of a man etc. The Arabs today are his descendants. Vs13, The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees;" for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" (And as a side note Ishmael is where the Arabs came from).

At Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Here's a question? Is the being, the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who was identified as God Almighty who multiplied Abraham's descendant at Genesis 17:1-2? Think about it?

Moving on to Genesis 18, it says at vs1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Paraphrasing again. "Vs2, Abraham sees three men. Vs3-6, Abraham offers water to wash their feet and food to eat. Vs9, Abraham was asked where his wife was? Vs10, And HE SAID, "I will surely return to you at this time next year, and behold, your wife Sarah shall have a son."

Vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, why did Sarah laugh etc.? Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? One of the men was the angel of the Lord and the other two men were actual angles. Look at Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place." Genesis 19:1, "Now the TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in gate of Sodom, etc.

Moving on to Genesis 22. Vs1, God tested Abraham. Vs9, "Then they came to the place of which GOD had told him; and Abraham built the altar there etc. Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son from Me." Vs13-14, God supplies Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, (side note, Abraham had an older son named Ishmael by Hagar who was older than Isaac).

Vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Some make the claim that the angel of the Lord is speaking on God's behalf. (Like you cjab). He's the agent or in Hebrew a "shaliach." This is known at the "Jewish Law of Agency." The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, (the principal.) In this case your "positing" that the angel of the Lord, the agent is acting for the principal who is God. There is one BIG problem why in this case the law of agency does not apply.

Look at whatHebrews 6:13-14 has to say. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE He could not swear BY NO OTHER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, Vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Notice vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute."

In other words, in taking oaths, men swear by God who is greater than they are. They do so in order to convince other men that they are truthful and intend to abide by their promises. Also, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. If you saw a crime and were ask to testify what you saw, you can't send your Uncle Harry to wear that he saw it. In fact, even you could not appear in a court for some reason, i.e injured or hospitalized the court would send someone to "depose" you by sworn affidavit.

The bottom line, the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ serving as a messenger of God and as an intermediary on behalf of the nation of Israel. A real good example is at Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgad to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of the Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you." I'll be happy to answer any and all questions? (Some of the legal aspects of this was taken from the Jewish Virtual Library). PS: I just remembered that an angel can swear an oath on behalf of himself. Revelation 10:5-6.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james

First off, Malachi 3:1 is not speaking of Jesus as a messenger of the OT but rather of the NT covenant and therefore the words of the author of Hebrews does not apply to Jesus as the messenger spoken of in Malachi 3:1 being he is speaking of Jesus as a messenger who was yet to come and not one who was already giving God's message

Therefore sorry James but Zechariah 1:12 also proves that you are wrong about this, for the angel of the Lord asks God how long he would withhold his mercy from Jerusalem and Judah.

Now one of your partners in false doctrine has quoted Numbers 14:11 where God asked Moses how long he was going to have to put up with the sins of his people and he tried to use this to prove that God was lamenting in both passages and that isn't why he asked Moses this at all.

What God was doing by asking Moses how long he would have to put up with the sin of his people was not because God didn't know it or that he was only complaining or lamenting to Moses about it but he asked Moses this so that Moses would understand that it was God that they were rejecting when they rebelled against Moses.

God does this a lot throughout the OT with his servants so that they are reminded of their sins and the sins of the people and so they are fully aware of his mercy and patience in dealing with the people and also so they don't get bent out of shape when he brings correction either.

However, like you, your buddy doesn't want to acknowledge the inspired words of the author of Hebrews in his first and second chapter and which will be there to condemn you also if you don't repent of your private interpretation on this.

If the Angel of the Lord was Yahweh or Jesus as Yahweh, he wouldn't have to be reminded of what God goes through with the sin of the people and he would also have already known how long God was going to withhold his mercy as well and therefore there would be no reason for him to ask Yahweh what he as Yahweh himself would already know and which would be quite redundant also.
 
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Towerwatchman

Active member
No more deception that Jesus saying "Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father." There is no deception in an express agent calling himself by his principal's name, or a third party identifying the agent as the principal. The principle of agency allows this to happen. It happens all the time by the consent of the law. It's known as the law of agency. There is only a deception if the agent is not acting for the principal.
Good agent/principal argument, but nothing in the text supports this. Can't get around Hagar who stated clearly that she heard and saw YHWH. What you have a textbook example of a highly contrived argument. Occam's razor should cut it down.
In fact Hagar would be the one deceiving if she intended it literally, because "God lives in unapproachable light." Not even Moses could see the face of God. The context clearly discloses she was referring to an angel. She would be lying if she were not.
This line of reasoning rises and falls on "God lives in unapproachable light". Are you stating that God does not have the power to overtake the 'unapproachable light' in order to manifest Himself before men. If that is true then the 'unapproachable light' is greater than God.
As to deception, there is none, Moses under the inspiration God wrote so.
Moreover it a deception to say that an angel is Jesus manifested. There is no authority for such a statement. Jesus is not a god-man who flits between the throne of God and earth like an angel. I fear you don't grasp the nature of divinity, which is enthronement and absolute sovereign power over everything. Why would Jesus come to earth if he could send any of millions of angels to do it?
Would of, could of, should of argument. Why did Jesus do X if He could have done Y. Answer. Because He wanted to. Being sovereign God, the Father, Son, or HS do as they please. [within the context of being Holy.]
 

cjab

Well-known member
Good agent/principal argument, but nothing in the text supports this. Can't get around Hagar who stated clearly that she heard and saw YHWH. What you have a textbook example of a highly contrived argument. Occam's razor should cut it down.
It's not contrived. There is nothing contrived about it. It is warranted by the Bible. Thus contrast:

Gal 3:19 "The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator."

with

"Then the LORD [i.e. YHWH] said / spoke ....." in inumerable verses in the OT, especially in the Pentateuch.

This line of reasoning rises and falls on "God lives in unapproachable light". Are you stating that God does not have the power to overtake the 'unapproachable light' in order to manifest Himself before men. If that is true then the 'unapproachable light' is greater than God.
I am saying that for a mere mortal to see God face-to-face is to die. Therefore God must either send angels, or his incarnated son.

Exodus 33:20 "No man can see me and live."

Would of, could of, should of argument. Why did Jesus do X if He could have done Y. Answer. Because He wanted to. Being sovereign God, the Father, Son, or HS do as they please. [within the context of being Holy.]
I disagree. Having made humans, God's law defined that they could not see God. Having made the universe, God bound himself by the rules of mathematics that he created. God can limit his powers by submitting himself to covenants etc and by creating rules.

Psa 89:34 “I will not violate my covenant or change what my lips have said."

What you are arguing for is the pagan conception of gods, where they flitted between heaven and earth, like Zeus and Hermes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baucis_and_Philemon). This is not the biblical conception. It doesn't happen in the bible.
 

cjab

Well-known member
The answer I'm about to give is not only for you cjab, it's for 101G as well. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." And yes, it can mean an actual angel but it is the context that determines the meaning. For instance at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (who do you think that is?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think the messenger of the covenant is?)

The angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. He's a human "messenger" Just read Mark 1:1-4. And btw, the prophet "Malachi" who is human, well his name is from the Hebrew word "malak" and of course he's a human being and not an angel.
OK


Now, lets look at Genesis 16, starting at vs7, This is the first reference of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord. "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. Paraphrasing, Vs8, "Hagar is fleeing her mistress Sarai. Vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to return to her mistress." Vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count."

Vs11, "The angel of the Lord said she is with child, a son. Vs12, "He will be a wild donkey of a man etc. The Arabs today are his descendants. Vs13, The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees;" for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" (And as a side note Ishmael is where the Arabs came from).

At Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Here's a question? Is the being, the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who was identified as God Almighty who multiplied Abraham's descendant at Genesis 17:1-2? Think about it?
Obviously so, for consider this:

Gen 21:17 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the "angel of God called to Hagar" out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is."

Gen 21:18 "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for "I" will make him a great nation."

Constrast the "angel of God" in verse 17, with "I" in verse 18. The angel of the Lord speaks in the name of God, and as the agent of God, and as if he were God. There is no distinction to be made between the "angel of God" and YHWH/God when it comes to reports of God interacting directly with men in the OT, even if there are distinctions between different angels. I assume some angels are servants of God for wrath, and some are agents of God for ministry.

Moving on to Genesis 18, it says at vs1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Paraphrasing again. "Vs2, Abraham sees three men. Vs3-6, Abraham offers water to wash their feet and food to eat. Vs9, Abraham was asked where his wife was? Vs10, And HE SAID, "I will surely return to you at this time next year, and behold, your wife Sarah shall have a son."

Vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, why did Sarah laugh etc.? Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? One of the men was the angel of the Lord and the other two men were actual angles. Look at Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place." Genesis 19:1, "Now the TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in gate of Sodom, etc.

Moving on to Genesis 22. Vs1, God tested Abraham. Vs9, "Then they came to the place of which GOD had told him; and Abraham built the altar there etc. Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son from Me." Vs13-14, God supplies Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, (side note, Abraham had an older son named Ishmael by Hagar who was older than Isaac).

Vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Some make the claim that the angel of the Lord is speaking on God's behalf. (Like you cjab). He's the agent or in Hebrew a "shaliach." This is known at the "Jewish Law of Agency." The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, (the principal.) In this case your "positing" that the angel of the Lord, the agent is acting for the principal who is God. There is one BIG problem why in this case the law of agency does not apply.

Look at whatHebrews 6:13-14 has to say. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE He could not swear BY NO OTHER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, Vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Notice vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute."

In other words, in taking oaths, men swear by God who is greater than they are. They do so in order to convince other men that they are truthful and intend to abide by their promises. Also, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. If you saw a crime and were ask to testify what you saw, you can't send your Uncle Harry to wear that he saw it. In fact, even you could not appear in a court for some reason, i.e injured or hospitalized the court would send someone to "depose" you by sworn affidavit.

The bottom line, the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ serving as a messenger of God and as an intermediary on behalf of the nation of Israel. A real good example is at Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgad to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of the Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you." I'll be happy to answer any and all questions? (Some of the legal aspects of this was taken from the Jewish Virtual Library). PS: I just remembered that an angel can swear an oath on behalf of himself. Revelation 10:5-6.
I agree that there does seem to be a difference between "mere" angels and senior angels in terms of their functions. Yet the New Testament uses the term "an angel of the Lord" (ἄγγελος Κυρίου) several times, in one instance (Luke 1:11 & 1:19) identifying it with Gabriel.

However that said, there is no basis for identifying an angel as the pre-incarnate Christ, who is the same as the post-incarnate Christ, who is God seated on the throne of God, and not an angel.

The worship of angels is strictly forbidden.

Rev 22:8 "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Who is this angel? In verse 6, it is the angel whom the "Lord" has sent, so presumably the "angel of the Lord." So here we seen the angel of the Lord being distinguished from God.

So please don't profess to worship any angels. It's not scriptural.
 
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jamesh

Active member
I have not forgotten about you!

The main thrust of my post is twofold, (1) the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and (2), can angels swear oaths on behalf of God? I've proven both points and yet your saying not only am I wrong, but the Bible is wrong, why? What don't you understand?

I don't care what objection you throw at me I have a biblical answer. For instance, it says at Genesis 22:12, "And he said, Do no stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son, from Me." This verse appears to be saying the angel of the Lord is talking for God. But, God often times speaks in the third persons. For example, Job 1:8 and 3"8. "And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD and turning away from evil etc." There are other examples, Numbers 14:28, 1 Samuel 2:30.

Also, why did God have the angel of the Lord call out to Abraham two times at Genesis 22:11,15 two times when God Himself called out from heave at Exodus 20:22 or in the New Testament at Mark 1:11? What's your answer? And speaking of the NT, apparently your not aware that "The" angel of the Lord never appears in the NT. Moreover, there is only one angel of the Lord. I know you quoted Luke 1:11 and 1:19 where it mentions the angel Gabriel.

I have a challenge for you. Give me any verse in the entire Bible and I will tell you if it's the angle of the Lord or "a' or "an" angel of the Lord. I know because there is a definition of the little word "the" and how it's used and the little words, "an/an?" The chief grammatical function of "an" 9or a) is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized, while "the" connotes a thing previously noted or recognized. For example, Acts 5:19, "But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the gates etc. Or Acts 8:28, "But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip etc. We do not know who these angels are.

You also brought up Revelation 22:6 & 8 and said, "so presumably the "angel of the Lord." There is no "presumably" because the angel sent is "NOT" The angel of the Lord. First of all the angel is not named so you cannot "assume or presume" who it is. Secondly, who do you think is doing the talking at vs7? "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of this prophecy of this book."

Moreover, the Apostle John was so full of the glory of God that he fell down before this angel to worship him. What did the angel do at Vs9?" He immediately stopped John from worshipping him and said, "I am a fellow servant of yours etc. Conclusion, I am not worshipping angels. I am worshipping the one who said at Revelation 22:12,13, the "Alpha and Omega who will be coming quickly, you know, the first and the last.

Finally, note Revelation 22:16 where Jesus explicitly says, "I, Jesus, have sent MY ANGEL to testify to you these things (why?) for the churches. I am the root and the offering of David, the bright morning star." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD/IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

civic

Well-known member
The answer I'm about to give is not only for you cjab, it's for 101G as well. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." This word simply means "messenger." And yes, it can mean an actual angel but it is the context that determines the meaning. For instance at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger," and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; (who do you think that is?) and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." (Who do you think the messenger of the covenant is?)

The angel/messenger who will clear the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. He's a human "messenger" Just read Mark 1:1-4. And btw, the prophet "Malachi" who is human, well his name is from the Hebrew word "malak" and of course he's a human being and not an angel.

Now, lets look at Genesis 16, starting at vs7, This is the first reference of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord. "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. Paraphrasing, Vs8, "Hagar is fleeing her mistress Sarai. Vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to return to her mistress." Vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count."

Vs11, "The angel of the Lord said she is with child, a son. Vs12, "He will be a wild donkey of a man etc. The Arabs today are his descendants. Vs13, The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees;" for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" (And as a side note Ishmael is where the Arabs came from).

At Genesis 17:1-2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Here's a question? Is the being, the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who was identified as God Almighty who multiplied Abraham's descendant at Genesis 17:1-2? Think about it?

Moving on to Genesis 18, it says at vs1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Paraphrasing again. "Vs2, Abraham sees three men. Vs3-6, Abraham offers water to wash their feet and food to eat. Vs9, Abraham was asked where his wife was? Vs10, And HE SAID, "I will surely return to you at this time next year, and behold, your wife Sarah shall have a son."

Vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, why did Sarah laugh etc.? Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? One of the men was the angel of the Lord and the other two men were actual angles. Look at Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham, the LORD departed; and Abraham returned to his place." Genesis 19:1, "Now the TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in gate of Sodom, etc.

Moving on to Genesis 22. Vs1, God tested Abraham. Vs9, "Then they came to the place of which GOD had told him; and Abraham built the altar there etc. Vs10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son."

Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son from Me." Vs13-14, God supplies Abraham with a sacrifice.

Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, (side note, Abraham had an older son named Ishmael by Hagar who was older than Isaac).

Vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Some make the claim that the angel of the Lord is speaking on God's behalf. (Like you cjab). He's the agent or in Hebrew a "shaliach." This is known at the "Jewish Law of Agency." The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another, (the principal.) In this case your "positing" that the angel of the Lord, the agent is acting for the principal who is God. There is one BIG problem why in this case the law of agency does not apply.

Look at whatHebrews 6:13-14 has to say. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE He could not swear BY NO OTHER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, Vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Notice vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute."

In other words, in taking oaths, men swear by God who is greater than they are. They do so in order to convince other men that they are truthful and intend to abide by their promises. Also, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Swearing an oath is a matter of one's conscience. If you saw a crime and were ask to testify what you saw, you can't send your Uncle Harry to wear that he saw it. In fact, even you could not appear in a court for some reason, i.e injured or hospitalized the court would send someone to "depose" you by sworn affidavit.

The bottom line, the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ serving as a messenger of God and as an intermediary on behalf of the nation of Israel. A real good example is at Judges 2:1, "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgad to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up out of the Egypt and led you into the land which I HAVE SWORN TO YOUR FATHERS; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you." I'll be happy to answer any and all questions? (Some of the legal aspects of this was taken from the Jewish Virtual Library). PS: I just remembered that an angel can swear an oath on behalf of himself. Revelation 10:5-6.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james
Excellent !
 

civic

Well-known member
I have not forgotten about you!

The main thrust of my post is twofold, (1) the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and (2), can angels swear oaths on behalf of God? I've proven both points and yet your saying not only am I wrong, but the Bible is wrong, why? What don't you understand?

I don't care what objection you throw at me I have a biblical answer. For instance, it says at Genesis 22:12, "And he said, Do no stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son, from Me." This verse appears to be saying the angel of the Lord is talking for God. But, God often times speaks in the third persons. For example, Job 1:8 and 3"8. "And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD and turning away from evil etc." There are other examples, Numbers 14:28, 1 Samuel 2:30.

Also, why did God have the angel of the Lord call out to Abraham two times at Genesis 22:11,15 two times when God Himself called out from heave at Exodus 20:22 or in the New Testament at Mark 1:11? What's your answer? And speaking of the NT, apparently your not aware that "The" angel of the Lord never appears in the NT. Moreover, there is only one angel of the Lord. I know you quoted Luke 1:11 and 1:19 where it mentions the angel Gabriel.

I have a challenge for you. Give me any verse in the entire Bible and I will tell you if it's the angle of the Lord or "a' or "an" angel of the Lord. I know because there is a definition of the little word "the" and how it's used and the little words, "an/an?" The chief grammatical function of "an" 9or a) is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized, while "the" connotes a thing previously noted or recognized. For example, Acts 5:19, "But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the gates etc. Or Acts 8:28, "But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip etc. We do not know who these angels are.

You also brought up Revelation 22:6 & 8 and said, "so presumably the "angel of the Lord." There is no "presumably" because the angel sent is "NOT" The angel of the Lord. First of all the angel is not named so you cannot "assume or presume" who it is. Secondly, who do you think is doing the talking at vs7? "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of this prophecy of this book."

Moreover, the Apostle John was so full of the glory of God that he fell down before this angel to worship him. What did the angel do at Vs9?" He immediately stopped John from worshipping him and said, "I am a fellow servant of yours etc. Conclusion, I am not worshipping angels. I am worshipping the one who said at Revelation 22:12,13, the "Alpha and Omega who will be coming quickly, you know, the first and the last.

Finally, note Revelation 22:16 where Jesus explicitly says, "I, Jesus, have sent MY ANGEL to testify to you these things (why?) for the churches. I am the root and the offering of David, the bright morning star." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD/IN GOD THE SON,
james
Spot on James another excellent biblical response. There is no getting around the fact it was the Son who was the "angel of the Lord" in the OT since the Son said no man has seen the Father nor heard His voice. So that leaves us with Moses on the mount hearing the Son, not the Father.
@cjab is up a creek without a paddle on the identity of the angel of the Lord. He assumes wrongly that angel must mean a created being when many instances it refers to a messenger not an angel. Keep up the good work brother defending our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ who was the Angel of the Lord in the OT known as YHWH.
 

cjab

Well-known member
I have not forgotten about you!

The main thrust of my post is twofold, (1) the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel but the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, and (2), can angels swear oaths on behalf of God? I've proven both points and yet your saying not only am I wrong, but the Bible is wrong, why? What don't you understand?
What I don't understand is why you refer to concepts that the bible knows nothing of.

(1) Why are you referring to the "pre-incarnate Christ." Where do I find the term "pre-incarnate Christ" in the bible? Where do I find the theology in the bible about the pre-incarnate Christ? And if not, what is your authority for inventing it?

(2) Can angels swear oaths on behalf of God?

Of course they can. As I have already explained, an agent has full authority act on behalf of, and bind his principal, because he "is" the principal for all purposes. So if an angel can represent God, then he can do all these things. Your objection is to the principle of angels as agents of YHWH. Yet why?

Galatians 3:19: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

Stephen said to Israel’s national leadership, Acts chapter 7: “[51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. [52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

In the Book of Hebrews, chapter 2, we read: “[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [2] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward..."

Where do I find the "pre-incarnate" Christ in the above passages? Why is the bible silent on the "pre-incarnate" Christ?

Is it not the fact that your "pre-incarnate" Christ is just your non-scriptural invention?

And in any case, why would God enthroned on high demean himself to appear on earth as an angel? What were angels created for?

Heb 1:14 "Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Of course they are. In the OT they are fulfilling that very role assigned to them. Why are you putting the "pre-incarnate Christ" in the role of a ministering spirit?

I don't care what objection you throw at me I have a biblical answer. For instance, it says at Genesis 22:12, "And he said, Do no stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld you son, your only son, from Me." This verse appears to be saying the angel of the Lord is talking for God. But, God often times speaks in the third persons. For example, Job 1:8 and 3"8. "And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD and turning away from evil etc." There are other examples, Numbers 14:28, 1 Samuel 2:30.

Also, why did God have the angel of the Lord call out to Abraham two times at Genesis 22:11,15 two times when God Himself called out from heave at Exodus 20:22 or in the New Testament at Mark 1:11? What's your answer? And speaking of the NT, apparently your not aware that "The" angel of the Lord never appears in the NT. Moreover, there is only one angel of the Lord. I know you quoted Luke 1:11 and 1:19 where it mentions the angel Gabriel.

I have a challenge for you. Give me any verse in the entire Bible and I will tell you if it's the angle of the Lord or "a' or "an" angel of the Lord.
This is not the issue and I don't want to discuss the biblical usages of angels versus angel of the Lord as it proves nothing or only what you want it to. A material issue is what the Jews understood by "angel of the Lord," as they wrote the scriptures. Check out:

So Christian Jews refuse to recognize the "angel of the Lord" as the "pre-incarnate" Christ. Nor do any other Jews (obviously). So if the authors of the bible didn't, why do you?

This is what Paul said about angel worshippers:

Col 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow. "

I know because there is a definition of the little word "the" and how it's used and the little words, "an/an?" The chief grammatical function of "an" 9or a) is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized, while "the" connotes a thing previously noted or recognized. For example, Acts 5:19, "But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the gates etc. Or Acts 8:28, "But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip etc. We do not know who these angels are.

You also brought up Revelation 22:6 & 8 and said, "so presumably the "angel of the Lord." There is no "presumably" because the angel sent is "NOT" The angel of the Lord. First of all the angel is not named so you cannot "assume or presume" who it is. Secondly, who do you think is doing the talking at vs7? "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of this prophecy of this book."
I really don't care which angel is speaking. Any angel is speaking, just as it says in verse 6. There is an unbroken continuum between verses 6 & 7.

But how do you know it's not the "angel of the Lord?"

Moreover, the Apostle John was so full of the glory of God that he fell down before this angel to worship him. What did the angel do at Vs9?" He immediately stopped John from worshipping him and said, "I am a fellow servant of yours etc. Conclusion, I am not worshipping angels. I am worshipping the one who said at Revelation 22:12,13, the "Alpha and Omega who will be coming quickly, you know, the first and the last.

Finally, note Revelation 22:16 where Jesus explicitly says, "I, Jesus, have sent MY ANGEL to testify to you these things (why?) for the churches. I am the root and the offering of David, the bright morning star." Amen, Come, Lord Jesus.
Given the principle of agency, it could be and likely is the angel speaking throughout. But as I wasn't there I won't be pedantic on this.
 

civic

Well-known member
What I don't understand is why you refer to concepts that the bible knows nothing of.

(1) Why are you referring to the "pre-incarnate Christ." Where do I find the term "pre-incarnate Christ" in the bible? Where do I find the theology in the bible about the pre-incarnate Christ? And if not, what is your authority for inventing it?

(2) Can angels swear oaths on behalf of God?

Of course they can. As I have already explained, an agent has full authority act on behalf of, and bind his principal, because he "is" the principal for all purposes. So if an angel can represent God, then he can do all these things. Your objection is to the principle of angels as agents of YHWH. Yet why?

Galatians 3:19: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”

Stephen said to Israel’s national leadership, Acts chapter 7: “[51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. [52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: [53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

In the Book of Hebrews, chapter 2, we read: “[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [2] For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward..."

Where do I find the "pre-incarnate" Christ in the above passages? Why is the bible silent on the "pre-incarnate" Christ?

Is it not the fact that your "pre-incarnate" Christ is just your non-scriptural invention?

And in any case, why would God enthroned on high demean himself to appear on earth as an angel? What were angels created for?

Heb 1:14 "Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Of course they are. In the OT they are fulfilling that very role assigned to them. Why are you putting the "pre-incarnate Christ" in the role of a ministering spirit?


This is not the issue and I don't want to discuss the biblical usages of angels versus angel of the Lord as it proves nothing or only what you want it to. A material issue is what the Jews understood by "angel of the Lord," as they wrote the scriptures. Check out:

So Christian Jews refuse to recognize the "angel of the Lord" as the "pre-incarnate" Christ. Nor do any other Jews (obviously). So if the authors of the bible didn't, why do you?

This is what Paul said about angel worshippers:

Col 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow. "


I really don't care which angel is speaking. Any angel is speaking, just as it says in verse 6. There is an unbroken continuum between verses 6 & 7.

But how do you know it's not the "angel of the Lord?"


Given the principle of agency, it could be and likely is the angel speaking throughout. But as I wasn't there I won't be pedantic on this.
Do you believe in the Trinity ? yes or no
 
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