Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

jamesh

Well-known member
Wrong! The definition of "being" according to the American Heritage Dictionary is: "The state or quality of having existence. Something, such as an object, an idea, or a symbol, that exists, is thought to exist, or is represented as existing." So, there is only one "being" of God who exist, period.

Person: All the qualities constituting one that exists; the essence. One's basic or essential nature or personality. Obviously you do not know the difference so let me explain further. Being is defined as existing, such as an object. A rock exist period, it's just there. Of course it is not a person because a rock does not have personality, yet, it exists, period. In like manner there is only ONE BEING of God who simply exists.

Here is what you stated, "The LORD (YHWH) is ONE eternal “self-conscious or rational being” who also incarnated as the man Christ Jesus." If you would have just said, "The LORD (YHWH) is ONE eternal being that exists and stopped there you just defined "being."

But no, you added or included the basic definition of "Person." That is, "all the qualities constituting one that exists." You then went on to explain the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4 and again added your own "errant" understanding. The Shema says "NOTING" about self conscious or rational being. It specifically says, "The Lord is our God, the Lord is one?"

In other words, there is only one God, period. And by you adding this "self conscious or rational" stuff in the verse when it's no there is adding to the word of God. But you know what's worse? You trying to get out of explaining why there are two persons clearly identified in 2 Samuel 24:16 and at Zechariah 1:12 making it sound like there are not really two persons in the verses.

Your being dishonest to yourself. What you really doing is "co-mingling" the words "being" and "person" as if they mean the same thing.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

jamesh

Well-known member
In Zechariah 1 the angel is introduced as a man and as the angel who talked with me.
NOT THE Angel of The Lord as in Exodus 3 and other places.
Sorry johnny! The following is from the "Keil & Delitzch Old Testament Commentary.

Zechariah 1:12 (NAS)
12 Then the angel of the Lord said, "O Lord of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?"
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Zechariah 1:12. Then the angel of Jehovah answered and said, Jehovah of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have compassion upon Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom Thou hast been angry these seventy years? Zechariah 1:13 (NAS)
13 The Lord answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words.
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14 So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, "Proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, "I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Zechariah 1:14. And the angel that talked with me said to me, Preach, and say, Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, I have been jealous for Jerusalem and Zion with great jealousy, Zechariah 1:15 (NAS)
15 But I am very angry with the nations who are at ease; for while I was only a little angry, they furthered the disaster."
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Zechariah 1:15 and with great wrath I am angry against the nations at rest: for I had been angry for a little, but they helped for harm. Zechariah 1:16 (NAS)
16 Therefore thus says the Lord , "I will return to Jerusalem with compassion; My house will be built in it," declares the Lord of hosts, "and a measuring line will be stretched over Jerusalem."'
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Zechariah 1:16. Therefore thus saith Jehovah, I turn again to Jerusalem with compassion: my house shall be built in it, is the saying of Jehovah of hosts, and the measuring line shall be drawn over Jerusalem. Zechariah 1:17 (NAS)
17 Again, proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, "My cities will again overflow with prosperity, and the Lord will again comfort Zion and again choose Jerusalem."'"
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Zechariah 1:17. Preach as yet, and say, Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, My cities shall yet swell over with good, and Jehovah will yet comfort Zion, and will yet choose Jerusalem.”


IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
No. I was objecting to the phrase "pre-incarnate Christ." The biblical term is "Word of God." If people only stuck to what the bible says, they might realize how incongrouous the term "angel of the Lord" is to describe the "Word of God."
Pre-incarnate Son of God.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Numerous verses in the N.T. prove YHWH to be more than one Person.

a person: a self-conscious or rational being

Can you post a verse in the N.T. that prove YHWH is more than one “self-conscious or rational being”?

P.S. I was surprised for you to say that since you say YHWH is NOT the name of God in the N.T.
 

jamesh

Well-known member
a person: a self-conscious or rational being

Can you post a verse in the N.T. that prove YHWH is more than one “self-conscious or rational being”?

P.S. I was surprised for you to say that since you say YHWH is NOT the name of God in the N.T.
No, and neither can johnny. The question for you is "do you know why?"

Because there is no other self-conscious rational being of God since there is only one God. Your advocating polytheism. Your also still rationalyzing being with person, they are not defined the same. Btw, I'm still waiting for you to address my post to you.

IN HIM,
james
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
a person: a self-conscious or rational being

Can you post a verse in the N.T. that prove YHWH is more than one “self-conscious or rational being”?

P.S. I was surprised for you to say that since you say YHWH is NOT the name of God in the N.T.
More than One Being? NO!
More than One Person? Yes.
The name of God in The N.T. and world wide Church is at Matthew 28:19 and that is the final name of God.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I believe YHWH on earth and YHWH in Heaven are the SAME PERSON just as the Son of man on earth and the Son of man in Heaven are the SAME PERSON.
They are not the same person. One speaks to another (2 Samuel 24:16; cf. 1 Chronicles 21:27).

So which of these statements is true?

A) YHWH on earth IS YHWH in Heaven.
B) YHWH on earth is NOT YHWH in Heaven.

I say A.


P.S.

When the man Jesus speaks to God, is he speaking to just the first Person of the Trinity, or to the first and third Persons of the Trinity, or to all three Persons of the Trinity?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
So which of these statements is true?

A) YHWH on earth IS YHWH in Heaven.
B) YHWH on earth is NOT YHWH in Heaven.
Neither one.

YHWH from heaven speaks to YHWH (the Messenger).

I am not sure how you can say two mutually exclusive statements are both wrong, unless you did not like the wording.

So let me rephrase the question using YOUR terms....

Which of these statements is true?

A) YHWH from heaven IS YHWH (the Messenger).
B) YHWH from heaven is NOT YHWH (the Messenger).
 

Fred

Well-known member
I am not sure how you can say two mutually exclusive statements are both wrong, unless you did not like the wording.

So let me rephrase the question using YOUR terms....

Which of these statements is true?

A) YHWH from heaven IS YHWH (the Messenger).
B) YHWH from heaven is NOT YHWH (the Messenger).
YHWH from heaven speaks to YHWH (the Messenger).
This proves God is more than just one Person.

Your heresy is refuted.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Angel of The Lord = Jesus [YHWH Manifested].

Gen 16:7 Now the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 The Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD {YHWH} said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD {YHWH} has heard your affliction.12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”13 Then she called the name of the LORD {YHWH} who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called vBeer Lahai Roi; observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered. [NKJV]

  • From the text, it is obvious that Hagar is talking to a man vs a pillar of fire or the Shekinah glory. There is nothing in the text that indicates Hagar is talking to thin air.
  • In vs 10, the Man spoke in terms of Him doing things only God can do.
  • Note it is the same promise YHWH made to Abraham in 15:5. By the promise the Man’s deity is made clear because no created creature can speak so; it is YHWH.
  • Vs 11. YHWH on earth speaks of another YHWH having compassion for Hagar.
  • Vs 13. Hagar identifies the one who she has seen and conversed with as YHWH.
  • Jesus states that no one has seen or heard The Father.
  • Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
  • Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
  • We have Jesus [YHWH] in vs 10, speaking about YHWH in heaven. = Muti personal God.

What scripture from any inspired writer of the NT do you have for the proof of this TW?

For if you have none, then Peter in 2 Peter 1:20-21 reveals your interpretation of this as private and simply meaning that it wasn't given to any inspired writer of the Holy Spirit to be a doctrine of the true Church.
 
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