Another jesus. Another gospel.

Icyspark

Member
One of the most astonishing positions held by many of the anti-Adventists I've talked to is that Jesus broke the Sabbath. These people present their jesus with a straight face and insist that he could transgress the law that he was born under with impunity. Their jesus, because he is god, can do as he pleases and could break the law and still be supposedly "sinless." But consider for a moment how this position—if played out to it's logical confusion—would impact on anything and everything else the Bible plainly reveals about the real Savior of the Bible. If this other jesus can break the fourth commandment, why can't he break any of the other commandments, laws, ordinances or decrees he imposed on his people? What about murder? Adultery? Thievery? Worshipping other gods? Coveting? Or sexual immorality? Do you really believe in a god who says "Do as I say, don't do as I do?"

The one that I think would be the most troubling potentiality would be the command against bearing false witness. Hebrews 6:18 says that "it is impossible for God to lie." But using the rationale for allowing jesus to break the Sabbath shouldn't we also find that it is just as likely that he should also be allowed to lie? Maybe he was lying about it being impossible for him to lie? How can you trust a god who cannot abide by the rules he demands of his own creatures?

When confronted by an angry mob which was ready to kill Him, Jesus asked the rhetorical question, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" The Pharisees, Sadducees and teachers of the law were constantly following Jesus looking for any reason to condemn Jesus. Members of the Sanhedrin were with Jesus on several occasions where they challenged Him on the question of proper Sabbath observance. If they could find Him guilty of breaking the Sabbath then they would have the legal rationale for condemning Him to death. But at His trial what do we see? Because Jesus was truly righteous, truly sinless (and not just a said sinlessness which former Adventists attribute to Him) the Sanhedrin had to resort to producing their own false evidence.

Matthew 26:59, 60
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

Why look for "false evidence" and produce "many false witnesses" when the Sanhedrin had it's own members as actual witnesses of what would constitute "real" evidence worthy of their desire to impose the death penalty? But if jesus really did break the law then God's ordained representatives on this planet were directed to impose capital punishment. The Pharisees would then be the good guys for carrying out God's directives for them as shepherds of His people. Really. Wouldn't noncompliance with the law be a beacon revealing any false messiah? :unsure:

The Jesus of the Bible is both 100% God as well as 100% man. This is the mystery of the incarnation (i.e. how God became man). But while the Bible acknowledges Jesus as being both God and man, anti-Adventists routinely focus primarily on their jesus's god-ness to the near exclusion of his man-ness. This exclusionary thinking creates serious theological problems for them as they attempt to articulate their jesus. For instance, the Bible says that God doesn't get tired or weary (Isaiah 40:28). Yet while the incarnate Jesus was fully God, His human side definitely got tired and weary (John 4:6). We're also told that God doesn't get hungry (Psalm 50:12), but we also know that Jesus did get both thirsty (John 19:28) and hungry (Matthew 4:2). The Jesus of the Bible is also acknowledged as saying His Father was greater than Himself (John 14:28). In His human form Jesus also stated that only His Father knew the time of His own return to earth (Matthew 24:36).

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Was it at all possible for the human side of Jesus to succumb to temptation? Satan certainly thought so. He went at Jesus when He was humanly at His weakest and tempted Him in areas he thought He might falter. Jesus's response to the tempter was not to simply ignore the temptations, or to send the devil off to oblivion. Jesus set an example for us in His confrontation by quoting Scripture in response to each temptation (this reminds me of putting on the full armor of God and utilizing the "sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God").

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

What do you think? Was Jesus tempted in all points as we are but because He didn't give in to those temptations He was really and truly "sinless"? Or, do you believe that the temptations could've all been embraced and the jesus you believe in, whom we're told "was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin," had only a said sinlessness? Is it "good news" that your jesus can and does break the laws he insists that his followers must obey? Is it "good news" that when your jesus finds out one of his creatures has broken one of his laws that he has been known to punish that individual to the full extent of the law (even though he himself apparently cannot abide by his own law)? If you believe in this other jesus it's certainly not the One whom Paul preached.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Do you really want to be included with a group of people who are perverting who Jesus really is and His true gospel?

I pray this helps.
 

Formersda

Member
One of the most astonishing positions held by many of the anti-Adventists I've talked to is that Jesus broke the Sabbath. These people present their jesus with a straight face and insist that he could transgress the law that he was born under with impunity. Their jesus, because he is god, can do as he pleases and could break the law and still be supposedly "sinless." But consider for a moment how this position—if played out to it's logical confusion—would impact on anything and everything else the Bible plainly reveals about the real Savior of the Bible. If this other jesus can break the fourth commandment, why can't he break any of the other commandments, laws, ordinances or decrees he imposed on his people? What about murder? Adultery? Thievery? Worshipping other gods? Coveting? Or sexual immorality? Do you really believe in a god who says "Do as I say, don't do as I do?"

The one that I think would be the most troubling potentiality would be the command against bearing false witness. Hebrews 6:18 says that "it is impossible for God to lie." But using the rationale for allowing jesus to break the Sabbath shouldn't we also find that it is just as likely that he should also be allowed to lie? Maybe he was lying about it being impossible for him to lie? How can you trust a god who cannot abide by the rules he demands of his own creatures?

When confronted by an angry mob which was ready to kill Him, Jesus asked the rhetorical question, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" The Pharisees, Sadducees and teachers of the law were constantly following Jesus looking for any reason to condemn Jesus. Members of the Sanhedrin were with Jesus on several occasions where they challenged Him on the question of proper Sabbath observance. If they could find Him guilty of breaking the Sabbath then they would have the legal rationale for condemning Him to death. But at His trial what do we see? Because Jesus was truly righteous, truly sinless (and not just a said sinlessness which former Adventists attribute to Him) the Sanhedrin had to resort to producing their own false evidence.

Matthew 26:59, 60
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

Why look for "false evidence" and produce "many false witnesses" when the Sanhedrin had it's own members as actual witnesses of what would constitute "real" evidence worthy of their desire to impose the death penalty? But if jesus really did break the law then God's ordained representatives on this planet were directed to impose capital punishment. The Pharisees would then be the good guys for carrying out God's directives for them as shepherds of His people. Really. Wouldn't noncompliance with the law be a beacon revealing any false messiah? :unsure:

The Jesus of the Bible is both 100% God as well as 100% man. This is the mystery of the incarnation (i.e. how God became man). But while the Bible acknowledges Jesus as being both God and man, anti-Adventists routinely focus primarily on their jesus's god-ness to the near exclusion of his man-ness. This exclusionary thinking creates serious theological problems for them as they attempt to articulate their jesus. For instance, the Bible says that God doesn't get tired or weary (Isaiah 40:28). Yet while the incarnate Jesus was fully God, His human side definitely got tired and weary (John 4:6). We're also told that God doesn't get hungry (Psalm 50:12), but we also know that Jesus did get both thirsty (John 19:28) and hungry (Matthew 4:2). The Jesus of the Bible is also acknowledged as saying His Father was greater than Himself (John 14:28). In His human form Jesus also stated that only His Father knew the time of His own return to earth (Matthew 24:36).

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Was it at all possible for the human side of Jesus to succumb to temptation? Satan certainly thought so. He went at Jesus when He was humanly at His weakest and tempted Him in areas he thought He might falter. Jesus's response to the tempter was not to simply ignore the temptations, or to send the devil off to oblivion. Jesus set an example for us in His confrontation by quoting Scripture in response to each temptation (this reminds me of putting on the full armor of God and utilizing the "sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God").

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

What do you think? Was Jesus tempted in all points as we are but because He didn't give in to those temptations He was really and truly "sinless"? Or, do you believe that the temptations could've all been embraced and the jesus you believe in, whom we're told "was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin," had only a said sinlessness? Is it "good news" that your jesus can and does break the laws he insists that his followers must obey? Is it "good news" that when your jesus finds out one of his creatures has broken one of his laws that he has been known to punish that individual to the full extent of the law (even though he himself apparently cannot abide by his own law)? If you believe in this other jesus it's certainly not the One whom Paul preached.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Do you really want to be included with a group of people who are perverting who Jesus really is and His true gospel?

I pray this helps.
John 10:18 is where it comes from.
John is very clear Jesus broke the sabbath For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to Kill Him, because not only was He breaking the sabbath, but also He was calling God His own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus broke the sabbath, when he healed that man who had been on that pallet for many years (this was not a life or death situation) even more so when Jesus told the man to carry his pallet which was agains the Law.

Jesus did not get himself cleaned after touch the lepars or dead people therefore broke the Law

and can you provide the evidences that former Adventists you are stating is not biblical, you’ll have to find quotes.

The good news is that through Jesus death, burial and resurrection we are not under the Law which leads to death. We are in the new covenant mostly talked about in both Esekiel and Jeremiah 31.

Also who is the creator of the Law? Jesus and Jesus is God He can do what He wants because of His sovereignty, holiness, deity , omnipotence, the fact He’s from the royal line of Judah He is a king. It was God who brought in the mosaic covenant, now we have the new covenant Jesus spoke about in the upper room before His death.
 

Icyspark

Member
John 10:18 is where it comes from.
John is very clear Jesus broke the sabbath For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to Kill Him, because not only was He breaking the sabbath, but also He was calling God His own Father, making himself equal with God. [If jesus--who was "born under the law," broke the Sabbath, then the Pharisees did their appointed duty in condemning him to death. If jesus broke the Sabbath then he was a sinner and not the Savior. If jesus broke the Sabbath, then he can also tell lies.]

Jesus broke the sabbath, when he healed that man who had been on that pallet for many years (this was not a life or death situation) even more so when Jesus told the man to carry his pallet which was agains the Law. [You are assuming the sale. Which law did Jesus break?]

Jesus did not get himself cleaned after touch the lepars or dead people therefore broke the Law [Since the man was clean there was no law that was broken]

and can you provide the evidences that former Adventists you are stating is not biblical, you’ll have to find quotes. [I can't interpret this sentence]

The good news is that through Jesus death, burial and resurrection we are not under the Law which leads to death. We are in the new covenant mostly talked about in both Esecial and Jeremiah 31.


Hi Formersda,

Yours is another jesus and another gospel. Jesus asked, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" Since the Pharisees and teachers of the law didn't agree that Jesus is God, they would have no problem with responding to this question. Yet the Former sda critic will ignore this fact and the fact that at the trial of Jesus the Sanhedrin had to resort to "false evidence" and "false witnesses" to find any accusation against Jesus. You appeal to one text and reject all the others which reveal to you that your jesus is another and that your gospel is bad news. ☠️

I pray this helps.
 

SDAchristian

Active member
Prologue:
Please be careful to not make doctrine out of the narrative of a Bible Story.
John 10:18 is where it comes from.
John is very clear Jesus broke the sabbath For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to Kill Him, because not only was He breaking the sabbath, but also He was calling God His own Father, making himself equal with God.
AV Jn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Are you sure, that this verse says what you are trying to say ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Active member
One of the most astonishing positions held by many of the anti-Adventists I've talked to is that Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Icyspark;
Christ did not break the 4th commandment;
but he did refuse to acknowledge all the
"Handwritting" of Ordinances placed upon the Nation
by the Pharisees; primarily Keeping the Sabbath Holy
as They Commanded
and all the Traditions of the Elders
a Burden to be born, contrary unto us, A Yoke of Bondage

I'm sure you have read Mark ch 7

Then came together unto him the Pharisees,
and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled,
that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews,
except they wash their hands oft, eat not,
holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not.
And many other things there be, which they have received to hold,
as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him,
Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders,
but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them,
Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites,
as it is written,
This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from m
e.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God,
ye hold
the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things ye do
.

9 And he said unto them
Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
that ye may keep your own tradition
.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother;
and,
Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

The one they cherished the most was over
"Da Money, Da $$$$$$$
Corban

11 But ye say,
If a man shall say to his father or mother,
It is Corban, that is to say, a gift,
by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
he shall be free
.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
.


Icy;
"it is well too do good on the Sabbath Day"

Icy;
I know you love your Church and the Adventist people
---------- But -------
the "Gods" of the SDA Church will follow suit
and then condemn any one that dares to disobey their rules and regulations,
even to the Point of saying they "Should be Killed" Stoned

read the story of Esther,
its not over Sabbath / Sunday
but Bowing to the Hamans of the Beast
the 2 Horned beast of Daniel
The Meads and they Persians

And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate,
bowed, and reverenced Haman:
for the king had so commanded concerning him.
But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.
 
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Formersda

Member
Hi Formersda,

Yours is another jesus and another gospel. Jesus asked, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" Since the Pharisees and teachers of the law didn't agree that Jesus is God, they would have no problem with responding to this question. Yet the Former sda critic will ignore this fact and the fact that at the trial of Jesus the Sanhedrin had to resort to "false evidence" and "false witnesses" to find any accusation against Jesus. You appeal to one text and reject all the others which reveal to you that your jesus is another and that your gospel is bad news. ☠️

I pray this helps.
Did I say He sinned?

You wanted to know how the former Adventists claim Jesus broke the law I gave it.
Numbers. 5:2 (part of the Law) says to stay away from leper’s (Command he sons of Israel that they send away from camp every lepar and anyone having discharge and everyone who is unclean because of a dead person.)
Numbers 19:20 (still part of the Law) say what happens to those who do not cleanse themselves (But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself from uncleanliness at person shall be cut off from the assembly, because he defined the sanctuary of God; the water for impurity has not been sprinkled on him, he is unclean).

Can you show when Jesus cleansed Himself?
YOU ASKED A SPECIFIC QUESTION I ANSWERED THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION, YOU ARE ADDING THINGS TO MY WORDS WHICH ISN‘T THERE.
THE LAW IS NOT JUST THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ITS THE WHOLE 613.
 

Formersda

Member
Hi Formersda,

Yours is another jesus and another gospel. Jesus asked, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" Since the Pharisees and teachers of the law didn't agree that Jesus is God, they would have no problem with responding to this question. Yet the Former sda critic will ignore this fact and the fact that at the trial of Jesus the Sanhedrin had to resort to "false evidence" and "false witnesses" to find any accusation against Jesus. You appeal to one text and reject all the others which reveal to you that your jesus is another and that your gospel is bad news. ☠️

I pray this helps.
I have no idea when you say the sale in regards to the cripple carrying the pallet, what do you say to this? Jeremiah 17:21,22
Thus says the LORD, take heed for yourselves AND DO NOT CARRY ANY LOAD ON THE SABBATH DAY, or bring anything through the gates of Jerusalem.
You shall not bring a LOAD out of your houses on the Sabbath day nor do any work but keep he sabbath day Holy, as I commanded your fore fathers.

DO YOU OBEY THIS COMMAND ON THE SABBATH WHEN YOU CARRY YOUR POTS FOR POTLUCK? WHAT ABOUT PREPARING THE POTLUCK FOOD, WHO CARRYS THE FOOD TO BE SERVED? WHO CARRIES THE CHAIRS THAT HAVE BEEN PILED UP AFTER PEOPLE HAVE FINISHED EATING?
DO YOU THEN CARRY THE POTS TO YOUR CAR? HAVE YOU NOT BROKEN WHAT THE LORD COMMANDED?

Don’t come on here all pious and a know it all, I know what happens on the SDA ”sabbath” and it’s not RESTING.
 

SDAchristian

Active member
Prologue:
AV 1Pt 4:7-10 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging. 10 As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

"A man can work from sun to sun, But a woman's work is never done."
I have no idea when you say the sale in regards to the cripple carrying the pallet, what do you say to this? Jeremiah 17:21,22
Thus says the LORD, take heed for yourselves AND DO NOT CARRY ANY LOAD ON THE SABBATH DAY, or bring anything through the gates of Jerusalem.
You shall not bring a LOAD out of your houses on the Sabbath day nor do any work but keep he sabbath day Holy, as I commanded your fore fathers.
It would be interesting lexicon study of Jeremiah 17:21,22; to better understand GOD's admonitions for sabbath.
DO YOU OBEY THIS COMMAND ON THE SABBATH WHEN YOU CARRY YOUR POTS FOR POTLUCK? WHAT ABOUT PREPARING THE POTLUCK FOOD, WHO CARRYS THE FOOD TO BE SERVED? WHO CARRIES THE CHAIRS THAT HAVE BEEN PILED UP AFTER PEOPLE HAVE FINISHED EATING?
DO YOU THEN CARRY THE POTS TO YOUR CAR? HAVE YOU NOT BROKEN WHAT THE LORD COMMANDED?
Seeing you interjected your personal objections in this thought: Oh, Please do enumerate, all the motives of all the members you disagreed with, at the SDA Churches you developed your opinion at ???
Don’t come on here all pious and a know it all, I know what happens on the SDA ”sabbath” and it’s not RESTING.
AV Mt 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Please be aware that Jesus judges fairly in both directions between people, not in unity.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Active member
Prologue:
AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
THE LAW IS NOT JUST THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ITS THE WHOLE 613.
Do you have support for this, from within the canon of scriptures, we can both accept ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Active member
I have no idea when you say the sale in regards to the cripple carrying the pallet, what do you say to this? Jeremiah 17:21,22
Thus says the LORD, take heed for yourselves AND DO NOT CARRY ANY LOAD ON THE SABBATH DAY, or bring anything through the gates of Jerusalem.
You shall not bring a LOAD out of your houses on the Sabbath day
nor do any work but keep he sabbath day Holy, as I commanded your fore fathers.

DO YOU OBEY THIS COMMAND ON THE SABBATH WHEN YOU CARRY YOUR POTS FOR POTLUCK? WHAT ABOUT PREPARING THE POTLUCK FOOD, WHO CARRYS THE FOOD TO BE SERVED? WHO CARRIES THE CHAIRS THAT HAVE BEEN PILED UP AFTER PEOPLE HAVE FINISHED EATING?
DO YOU THEN CARRY THE POTS TO YOUR CAR? HAVE YOU NOT BROKEN WHAT THE LORD COMMANDED?

Don’t come on here all pious and a know it all, I know what happens on the SDA ”sabbath” and it’s not RESTING.
Formersda;
I'm glad you brought that up
ie:
AND DO NOT CARRY ANY LOAD ON THE SABBATH DAY, or bring anything through the gates of Jerusalem.
You shall not bring a LOAD out of your houses on the Sabbath day

Matt. 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place
,
(whoso readeth, let him understand)

John's Revelation also

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

ie: as you posted, formersda;
You shall not bring a LOAD out of your houses on the Sabbath day

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
 
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Formersda

Member
Prologue:
AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Do you have support for this, from within the canon of scriptures, we can both accept ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Are you asking a serious question?
 

Icyspark

Member
Icyspark;
Christ did not break the 4th commandment;
but he did refuse to acknowledge all the
"Handwritting" of Ordinances placed upon the Nation
by the Pharisees; primarily Keeping the Sabbath Holy
as They Commanded
and all the Traditions of the Elders
a Burden to be born, contrary unto us, A Yoke of Bondage


Hi Buzzard,

If I understand you correctly I'd say that I agree with the above.


I'm sure you have read Mark ch 7

Then came together unto him the Pharisees,
and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled,
that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews,
except they wash their hands oft, eat not,
holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not.
And many other things there be, which they have received to hold,
as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him,
Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders,
but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them,
Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites,
as it is written,
This people honoureth me with their lips,
but their heart is far from m
e.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me,
teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God,
ye hold
the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things ye do
.

9 And he said unto them
Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
that ye may keep your own tradition
.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother;
and,
Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

The one they cherished the most was over
"Da Money, Da $$$$$$$
Corban

11 But ye say,
If a man shall say to his father or mother,
It is Corban, that is to say, a gift,
by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
he shall be free
.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
.


Icy;
"it is well too do good on the Sabbath Day"

Icy;
I know you love your Church and the Adventist people
---------- But -------
the "Gods" of the SDA Church will follow suit
and then condemn any one that dares to disobey their rules and regulations,
even to the Point of saying they "Should be Killed" Stoned

read the story of Esther,
its not over Sabbath / Sunday
but Bowing to the Hamans of the Beast
the 2 Horned beast of Daniel
The Meads and they Persians

And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate,
bowed, and reverenced Haman:
for the king had so commanded concerning him.
But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.

Above you are making accusations about the Adventist church with no evidence (not unusual around here). The Adventist church is not perfect but your claims that they go around killing people who "disobey their rules and regulations" is strictly in your imagination.

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Member
Did I say He sinned?


Hi Formersda,

You didn't say those words, but you did precisely what the opening post posited. You have Jesus transgressing the law He was born under, yet you believe that because He is God He is not in reality under that law. Thus you impose your own conflicted ideas on texts of Scripture where there should be none. Jesus didn't sin because He didn't transgress the law He was born under. No one could "prove [Him] guilty of sin" because He never broke the law. Your belief that Jesus is God was not subscribed to by the Pharisees and they certainly would've proved Him guilty if they could. They couldn't and neither can you. For you, Jesus' sinlessness was only because He's God and not because He didn't transgress the law He was born under.

Let me ask you this: What does Paul mean when he says Jesus was "born of a woman, born under law"?


You wanted to know how the former Adventists claim Jesus broke the law I gave it.
Numbers. 5:2 (part of the Law) says to stay away from leper’s (Command he sons of Israel that they send away from camp every lepar and anyone having discharge and everyone who is unclean because of a dead person.)
Numbers 19:20 (still part of the Law) say what happens to those who do not cleanse themselves (But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself from uncleanliness at person shall be cut off from the assembly, because he defined the sanctuary of God; the water for impurity has not been sprinkled on him, he is unclean).


I think you'd have a very difficult time condemning Jesus for touching an unclean person who after He touched them they are no longer the proof you need for condemning Him. After all the unclean person is clean and Jesus is clean. It's like attempting to condemn someone for murder when the supposed murdered person is standing right in front of you. :rolleyes:


YOU ASKED A SPECIFIC QUESTION I ANSWERED THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION, YOU ARE ADDING 👈😆 THINGS TO MY WORDS WHICH ISN‘T THERE.
THE LAW IS NOT JUST THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ITS THE WHOLE 613.


You haven't answered anything other than illustrating the premise of the opening post. Thank you for that.

God attached a specific numeral which constrains the set of laws which He wrote with His own finger on stone and which He Himself spoke audibly for all the millions of people to hear. Immediately after He gave this set of commandments Moses tells us that "He added nothing more." The problem with your claim above is that God says, "DO NOT ADD to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." That is exactly what you are doing. This set of ten commands is called "His covenant--the Ten commandments." How is it exactly, you get the supreme privilege of adding an additional 603 commands to a covenant with a numeral constraining it to only ten? God says He "added nothing more" and says, "do not add to what I command," yet here we find you are doing precisely that. This is not good news.

I pray this helps.
 

Buzzard

Active member
Hi Buzzard,

If I understand you correctly I'd say that I agree with the above.

Above you are making accusations about the Adventist church with no evidence (not unusual around here). The Adventist church is not perfect but your claims that they go around killing people who "disobey their rules and regulations" is strictly in your imagination.

God bless!
Icy;
get your facts straight;
for months on this Bd
Michael, SDA Christian has bee accusing the Sunday people
of wanting to kill all Sabbath keepers without a speck of evidence,
just on the words of the "Gods" of the SDA church

"there are Gods many"
now do you think he spake of Divinity, ?????????????????
or men that are Worshiped / Exalted as "GODS"
Speaking from the Pulpit

Wake up ICY;
it will be the SDA 😈 "Gods" 😈 that will do as the RCC has in the past
and get "Caesar" The Beast / Secular Power to punish anyone that
dares to not bow to their "Authority"
it won't be over Sabbath / Sunday

Don't forget IVY;
it "Da Remnant" that deceives the entire """EARTH"""
but then begans to eat and Drink with the Drunken
and then "Spite" their fellow servants

The Remnent are those that came out of the Great Disapointment of 1844
That is no others than the SDA's

ICY;
the mark is only for the "Merchant Men" of Johns Revelation
peddling their Wares from the Pulpit in the Churches of all assembly's
RCC, Protestant, or the other groups as well;
SDA included
 
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Buzzard

Active member
Hi Buzzard,
Gal. 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all
.

27 For it is written, Rejoice,
thou barren that bearest not;
break forth and cry, thou that travailest not:

--------The Many -<vs>- The Few-------
for the desolate hath many more children
than she which
hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was,
are the children of promise
.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit,
even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?
Cast out the bondwoman and her son:
for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman,
but of the free
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Icy;
Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.


this Lady, Icy; not some Earthly assembly
we are Ambassadors for the Heavenly,
sent not to become a Citizen of some "Jerusalem" on Earth

Hebrews 12:22
"Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel
.

The true Ministers of the Most High
do not stand in the Pulpits of the SDA's
but are these are
"Who maketh his angels spirits,
and his ministers a flame of fire
."
sent from the Heavenly
Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation
?

and they (the Angel sent) Tremble at the thought of Judgement
that they would be found lacking

Lev.4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance,
while he doeth somewhat against
any of the commandments of the Lord
concerning things which ought not to be done,
and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned,
come to his knowledge:
then he shall bring his offering,
a kid of the goats, a female without blemish,
for his sin which he hath sinned.
----- or -------
And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering,
he shall bring .... a female without blemish.
 
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Formersda

Member
Hi Formersda,

You didn't say those words, but you did precisely what the opening post posited. You have Jesus transgressing the law He was born under, yet you believe that because He is God He is not in reality under that law. Thus you impose your own conflicted ideas on texts of Scripture where there should be none. Jesus didn't sin because He didn't transgress the law He was born under. No one could "prove [Him] guilty of sin" because He never broke the law. Your belief that Jesus is God was not subscribed to by the Pharisees and they certainly would've proved Him guilty if they could. They couldn't and neither can you. For you, Jesus' sinlessness was only because He's God and not because He didn't transgress the law He was born under.

Let me ask you this: What does Paul mean when he says Jesus was "born of a woman, born under law"?





I think you'd have a very difficult time condemning Jesus for touching an unclean person who after He touched them they are no longer the proof you need for condemning Him. After all the unclean person is clean and Jesus is clean. It's like attempting to condemn someone for murder when the supposed murdered person is standing right in front of you. :rolleyes:





You haven't answered anything other than illustrating the premise of the opening post. Thank you for that.

God attached a specific numeral which constrains the set of laws which He wrote with His own finger on stone and which He Himself spoke audibly for all the millions of people to hear. Immediately after He gave this set of commandments Moses tells us that "He added nothing more." The problem with your claim above is that God says, "DO NOT ADD to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." That is exactly what you are doing. This set of ten commands is called "His covenant--the Ten commandments." How is it exactly, you get the supreme privilege of adding an additional 603 commands to a covenant with a numeral constraining it to only ten? God says He "added nothing more" and says, "do not add to what I command," yet here we find you are doing precisely that. This is not good news.

I pray this helps.
Am I? Think you need to do some research it’s basic knowledge that the Mosaic Law had 613 laws, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments if you really need to know ask a Rabbi. Even as an SDA I knew that, even better ask your Pastor too.
Don‘t say I’ve added when actually the Adventist church have added the investigative judgement.
Is the American Constitution the only laws America has? No, all the other laws come from that starting position, the same with the Ten Commandments too, all the other 603 laws came from that starting point.
You stated that former Adventists claim Jesus broke the Law I have shown from scripture He did. The problem for Adventists is that they equate breaking the Law with sinning and that’s not the case.
You need to read the Pentateuch the first 5 books of the bible which is referred to the Law. I know as an Adventist each time you see the word law you automatically think 10 commandments but that is not the case.

In Nehemiah 8:1-8 the people begged Ezra to read the law, so when Ezra read from the law from early morning to midday was he just repeating the Ten Commandments over and over?

When you accuse me of another gospel you obviously haven’t read Galatians 3:1-3
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
This is the only thing I want to find out from you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing through faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

All 613 Laws where created by God, it therefore begs the question why did Jesus break His own law? Was it because the Law could never perfect you? Was it because Jesus is the substance of the Law therefore we now have to believe in Jesus not the Law to be justified.

I am surprised that you don’t know the basics of Jewish Law the Mosaic covenant. Do some research read the first five books of the bible and you will know that’s the law.

I give you a starter to put in Google. Search for what is the Mosaic Covenant? The ask what is the Davidic Covenant? What is the new covenant? You will find a lot of research on this, which takes you straight to the bible.
The first Covenant God made was with Adam and Eve.
 
Last edited:

Formersda

Member
Hi Formersda,

You didn't say those words, but you did precisely what the opening post posited. You have Jesus transgressing the law He was born under, yet you believe that because He is God He is not in reality under that law. Thus you impose your own conflicted ideas on texts of Scripture where there should be none. Jesus didn't sin because He didn't transgress the law He was born under. No one could "prove [Him] guilty of sin" because He never broke the law. Your belief that Jesus is God was not subscribed to by the Pharisees and they certainly would've proved Him guilty if they could. They couldn't and neither can you. For you, Jesus' sinlessness was only because He's God and not because He didn't transgress the law He was born under.

Let me ask you this: What does Paul mean when he says Jesus was "born of a woman, born under law"?





I think you'd have a very difficult time condemning Jesus for touching an unclean person who after He touched them they are no longer the proof you need for condemning Him. After all the unclean person is clean and Jesus is clean. It's like attempting to condemn someone for murder when the supposed murdered person is standing right in front of you. :rolleyes:





You haven't answered anything other than illustrating the premise of the opening post. Thank you for that.

God attached a specific numeral which constrains the set of laws which He wrote with His own finger on stone and which He Himself spoke audibly for all the millions of people to hear. Immediately after He gave this set of commandments Moses tells us that "He added nothing more." The problem with your claim above is that God says, "DO NOT ADD to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." That is exactly what you are doing. This set of ten commands is called "His covenant--the Ten commandments." How is it exactly, you get the supreme privilege of adding an additional 603 commands to a covenant with a numeral constraining it to only ten? God says He "added nothing more" and says, "do not add to what I command," yet here we find you are doing precisely that. This is not good news.

I pray this helps.
Further to my above notes, then God made the covenant with Noah in Genesis 9, then the Abrahamic Covenant Genesis 15 and 17. The Mosiac Covenant from Exodus 20 onwards. The Davidic covenant 2 Samuel 7, the new covenant Jeremiah 31:31-end Isaiah 42. Isaiah 54 Jeremiah 42 Psalms 110.
Where does Jesus talk about a new covenant? Luke 22:20 here He talks about His blood (crucifixion) as the new covenant.
It is only Jesus’s blood that saves us, nothing else at all. So when you read Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews the whole of Hebrews 9 you’ll understand the new covenant.
Do some research on what I’ve written and I’ll be happy to converse until then don’t accuse me of something which I’m not due to your ignorance.
 
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Formersda

Member
Further more to both Micheal and Icy Spark,

I enclose an article from the Ministry Magazine (the one which your pastors get and read) which talks about proof text studying. You have not been taught to read the bible properly. It was inferred to you that you can’t read the bible without the interpretation of EGW.
This pastor writes in his article ironically the month and year my Pastor father died, how reading the scripture as a whole made a difference with his congregation.

Indeed, if you want to know how scripture alone can change hearts and turn people to God read Acts 2 as a whole, here is Peter’s first sermon and he is using scriptures mainly Joel, how many people where converted? 3000. Peters second sermon again only using scripture converted 5000.
That text in Nehemiah 8:1-8 49,000 people where converted.
In Luke 24:13-35 Jesus Himself used scriptures to prove who He is. Did Jesus and the apostles just read out the Ten Commandments and everyone was converted?
Another good chapter to read is Acts 7 Stephen’s defense, it’s a brilliant chapter on who Jesus is and what you need to do.

Scripture alone always, and scripture interprets scripture as it’s God’s word therefore it cannot lie. But you cannot proof text scripture and that’s why your having difficulty on this board because the rest of us don’t use proof texts.
 

Icyspark

Member
Icy;
get your facts straight;
for months on this Bd
Michael, SDA Christian has bee accusing the Sunday people
of wanting to kill all Sabbath keepers without a speck of evidence,
just on the words of the "Gods" of the SDA church

"there are Gods many"
now do you think he spake of Divinity, ?????????????????
or men that are Worshiped / Exalted as "GODS"
Speaking from the Pulpit

Wake up ICY;
it will be the SDA 😈 "Gods" 😈 that will do as the RCC has in the past
and get "Caesar" The Beast / Secular Power to punish anyone that
dares to not bow to their "Authority"
it won't be over Sabbath / Sunday

Don't forget IVY;
it "Da Remnant" that deceives the entire """EARTH"""
but then begans to eat and Drink with the Drunken
and then "Spite" their fellow servants

The Remnent are those that came out of the Great Disapointment of 1844
That is no others than the SDA's

ICY;
the mark is only for the "Merchant Men" of Johns Revelation
peddling their Wares from the Pulpit in the Churches of all assembly's
RCC, Protestant, or the other groups as well;
SDA included


Hi Buzzard,

Sorry, I'm not Michael and just as he doesn't speak for me, I don't speak for him. Please address my words not some other conversation I'm not even part of.

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Member
Gal. 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all
.

27 For it is written, Rejoice,
thou barren that bearest not;
break forth and cry, thou that travailest not:

--------The Many -<vs>- The Few-------
for the desolate hath many more children
than she which
hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was,
are the children of promise
.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit,
even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?
Cast out the bondwoman and her son:
for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman,
but of the free
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Icy;
Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.


this Lady, Icy; not some Earthly assembly
we are Ambassadors for the Heavenly,
sent not to become a Citizen of some "Jerusalem" on Earth

Hebrews 12:22
"Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel
.

The true Ministers of the Most High
do not stand in the Pulpits of the SDA's
but are these are
"Who maketh his angels spirits,
and his ministers a flame of fire
."
sent from the Heavenly
Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation
?

and they (the Angel sent) Tremble at the thought of Judgement
that they would be found lacking

Lev.4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance,
while he doeth somewhat against
any of the commandments of the Lord
concerning things which ought not to be done,
and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned,
come to his knowledge:
then he shall bring his offering,
a kid of the goats, a female without blemish,
for his sin which he hath sinned.
----- or -------
And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering,
he shall bring .... a female without blemish.


Hi Buzzard,

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. 🤷‍♂️

God bless!
 
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