Answering questions from Johnathan regarding the angel of the Lord.

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Absolutely! I'm not suggesting the Deuteronomists were successful in their attempt to broaden priestly service to all the Levites, but they certainly attempted it... in the post-exilic period the writers behind Chronicles and Ezra-Nehemiah, for example, were fighting back just as strong to keep the Levites in their ostensibly proper place as helpers to the priests.


Does it still seem far-fetched given what I wrote above?
I would have to study those books to find out. That is an endeavor I don't have time for at the moment.
 
I ask you a very specific question? Can angels swear an oath on behalf of God Almighty? Yes, angels do have rank but I don't care what their rank is, can they swear an oath on behalf of God? And yes, angels at times do speak on behalf of God, but again can they swear an oath on behalf of God?

Jesus is not one of the hosts of heaven. Your "assuming" that Jesus Christ is an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." and it simply means "messenger." Angels are messengers and the word "malak/messenger" is also applied to humans. Malachi is a human prophet and his name is rooted in the word "malak" and he ain't no actual angel.

Btw, I don't know why you brought up Reincarnation but Hebrews 9:27 shoots that belief down. So Jim harmon, please answer my question?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Yes , some can and do .
Some Angels speak for GOD , as GOD , with all authority of GOD .
 

jamesh

Well-known member
Yes , some can and do .
Some Angels speak for GOD , as GOD , with all authority of GOD .
I'm not denying that some angels can and do speak for God. What I'm saying is the fact that the angel of the Lord at Genesis 22:11-18 (Who is not an actual angel) is identified as God and swore the oath to Abraham. Vs16, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, your only son,"

And as I stated, Hebrews 6:13-17 confirms it was God who swore the oath. This is based on the fact that. "He could swear by no one greater, so He swore by Himself. Angels are not greater than God, period. So how do you reconcile your position with what the verses are explicitly stating?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
I'm not denying that some angels can and do speak for God. What I'm saying is the fact that the angel of the Lord at Genesis 22:11-18 (Who is not an actual angel) is identified as God and swore the oath to Abraham. Vs16, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, your only son,"

And as I stated, Hebrews 6:13-17 confirms it was God who swore the oath. This is based on the fact that. "He could swear by no one greater, so He swore by Himself. Angels are not greater than God, period. So how do you reconcile your position with what the verses are explicitly stating?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Genesis 22:15 (KJV) And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Both says
The Angel OF The LORD .
To answer your second question .
The Angel again is speaking for GOD .
Telling man GODs oath to man .
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
What if God kinda like spoke through the angel like a megaphone or something.
That is something what it is like but not like a megaphone, at least when the Spirit spoke through me. Words were coming out of my mouth without me intentionally speaking them. My mind was praising God.
 

jamesh

Well-known member
Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Genesis 22:15 (KJV) And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Both says
The Angel OF The LORD .
To answer your second question .
The Angel again is speaking for GOD .
Telling man GODs oath to man .
Let me try it this way? Exodus 20:1-2, "Then God spoke all these words saying, vs2, I am the Lord God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Now look at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven."

If the angel of the Lord is an actual angel can you please explain why God would use an angel to speak to Abraham out of heaven two times at Genesis 22, when God Himself at Exodus 20:22 spoke out of heaven? Also, at Deuteronomy 4:35-36, "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him, vs36, Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire."

One more of God speaking out of heaven. Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased."

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
Let me try it this way? Exodus 20:1-2, "Then God spoke all these words saying, vs2, I am the Lord God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Now look at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven."

If the angel of the Lord is an actual angel can you please explain why God would use an angel to speak to Abraham out of heaven two times at Genesis 22, when God Himself at Exodus 20:22 spoke out of heaven? Also, at Deuteronomy 4:35-36, "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him, vs36, Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire."

One more of God speaking out of heaven. Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased."

IN GOD THE SON,
james
I have explained in previous statements .
John 3:12 (KJV)
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
There is rank in heaven as on earth .
Ezekiel 14:7 (KJV)
For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Ask GOD himself , HE will show you .
James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Just trying to show you some truth .
I have shown you HIS word but you refuse to see .
Believe as you will .
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Let me try it this way? Exodus 20:1-2, "Then God spoke all these words saying, vs2, I am the Lord God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Now look at Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven."

18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. Exodus 19:18

9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. Exodus 24:9

If the angel of the Lord is an actual angel can you please explain why God would use an angel to speak to Abraham out of heaven two times at Genesis 22, when God Himself at Exodus 20:22 spoke out of heaven?

God uses His messengers all the time. That's why they are called His messengers. "Angel of the LORD" literally means "messenger of Yahweh." It is as absurd to claim Yahweh is Yahweh's messenger as it is to claim David is David's servant.

The God of Israel came down on Sinai to speak to the people of Israel because He Himself gave them their Law. And because it was He Himself they were terrified they would die because they heard God's voice and they begged not to hear it again lest they all die. And God said they had spoken well and answered them. Deut 18:15-18. Men didn't freak out like that when they spoke with God's angels/messengers or heard God's angels/messengers speak.


Also, at Deuteronomy 4:35-36, "To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him, vs36, Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire."

One more of God speaking out of heaven. Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou are My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased."

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

jamesh

Well-known member
My point of the post was to demonstrate that God Himself speaks from heaven on occasion. The reason I brought this up was to ask the question of why the angel of the Lord was designated to speak from heaven at Genesis 22:11 and verse 15 yet God Himself is capable of speaking from heaven Himself?

And of course God uses angels as well as men who speak for Him and in Hebrew the word for "angel/messenger" is "malak." The name of the prophet Malachi (who is a human being), his name comes from the word "malak" and of course he is not an actual angel, but simply a messenger.

So, I have a question for you? At Genesis 22:15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because (or why), you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

At vs16, Who said, "By Myself I have sworn," an angel or the Lord? At vs17, Who is the "I" that will greatly multiply Abraham's descendants, an angel of the Lord God? At vs18, Who's voice did Abraham obey, an angel's of the Lord's? Finally, in the book of Hebrews the writer refers to Genesis 22 and he says the following starting at Hebrews 6:13.

"For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." Vs15, And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. Vs16, "For men swear by no one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Vs17, "In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise, the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath."

The point being that men swear by God who is greater than they are. So, how can an angel swear an oath on behalf of God when God is "obviously" greater than angels? The point being, that the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel, but the preincarnate Jesus Christ. God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father.

What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father (John 1:1,18; John 10:30, John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3)

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
My point of the post was to demonstrate that God Himself speaks from heaven on occasion. The reason I brought this up was to ask the question of why the angel of the Lord was designated to speak from heaven at Genesis 22:11 and verse 15 yet God Himself is capable of speaking from heaven Himself?

You are basically saying, "This is how I would do it so why didn't God do it that way"?

Bad idea.

And of course God uses angels as well as men who speak for Him and in Hebrew the word for "angel/messenger" is "malak." The name of the prophet Malachi (who is a human being), his name comes from the word "malak" and of course he is not an actual angel, but simply a messenger.

So, I have a question for you? At Genesis 22:15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because (or why), you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

At vs16, Who said, "By Myself I have sworn," an angel or the Lord?

A messenger of YHWH spoke YHWH's message, yes. That's the point of being a messenger.

Same thing with Jesus. His words were not his own but the Father's who sent him. He said so.


At vs17, Who is the "I" that will greatly multiply Abraham's descendants, an angel of the Lord God?

NO.

Messengers of God convey God's words. That's the point of being a messenger. They don't speak from themselves but convey the message YHWH desires to convey.

It isn't a difficult concept.

At vs18, Who's voice did Abraham obey, an angel's of the Lord's? Finally, in the book of Hebrews the writer refers to Genesis 22 and he says the following starting at Hebrews 6:13.

"For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." Vs15, And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. Vs16, "For men swear by no one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Vs17, "In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise, the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath."

The point being that men swear by God who is greater than they are. So, how can an angel swear an oath on behalf of God when God is "obviously" greater than angels? The point being, that the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel, but the preincarnate Jesus Christ. God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father.

What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father (John 1:1,18; John 10:30, John 12:45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3)

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
The point being, that the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel, but the preincarnate Jesus Christ. God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father.
I've always wonder why God didn't make a way to redeem angels from their sin. I thought maybe because they don't have to struggle with a human body that has a tendency to lust and draws that within us to go along with it. Or maybe because angels stand in the very presence of God ALL of the time, how could they possibly rebel against him? (not that the see God in his very essence).

This leads to my question, if Jesus is the angel of the LORD, why didn't he redeem the angels? He was of their kind and perfectly sinless.
 

jamesh

Well-known member
I've always wonder why God didn't make a way to redeem angels from their sin. I thought maybe because they don't have to struggle with a human body that has a tendency to lust and draws that within us to go along with it. Or maybe because angels stand in the very presence of God ALL of the time, how could they possibly rebel against him? (not that the see God in his very essence).

This leads to my question, if Jesus is the angel of the LORD, why didn't he redeem the angels? He was of their kind and perfectly sinless.
The first thing that came to mind regarding your question was John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The angels were created before the world was, therefore how could Jesus redeem them? Also, angels are spiritual beings so again they would not qualify. I'm sure there are other reasons but I have not studied it out. PS: Yes the angels were sinless and I'm pretty sure they had free will, which begs the question, "Why did God allow Satan to sin?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

jamesh

Well-known member
The most ridiculous element of this Trinitarian claim is that we are to believe the angel of the LORD is not an angel.
Now to get back to you! The angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. "Now the angel of the Lord found her, (that is Hagar and her mistress was Sarah), by a spring on the way to Shur."

At vs9-10, the angel of the Lord says to her, "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority, vs10, Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count." (Today these descendants are known as the Arabs).

Now to Genesis 17:1-3, "Now when Abraham was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abrah and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Vs3, "And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying."

Since you say the following at the end of all your post: "There is only one true God, the Lord's God, and there is no God but his God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." My question is a simple one, was it God the Father who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1-3 and multiplied his descendants?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
The first thing that came to mind regarding your question was John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The angels were created before the world was, therefore how could Jesus redeem them? Also, angels are spiritual beings so again they would not qualify. I'm sure there are other reasons but I have not studied it out. PS: Yes the angels were sinless and I'm pretty sure they had free will, which begs the question, "Why did God allow Satan to sin?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Do you mean why did God give the angels a free will?
 

jamesh

Well-known member
Do you mean why did God give the angels a free will?
God gave the angels free will because God is love. (1 John 4:8.) This of course is why Satan was allowed to sin, again free will. I kind of don't like the word "allowed" but I'm sure you know what I mean. Does that sound about right?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
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