Answering questions from Johnathan regarding the angel of the Lord.

Caroljeen

Well-known member
I will first admit it's hard to set aside bias. Inspiration does change the way I naturally treat Scripture. I simply believe it contains revelation.
But even taking the book all on its own, I don't think the natural interpretation is to equate all the messengers, it doesn't make logical sense.
Especially prophetic writings. I wound find it odd if a prophetic writing in the Bible didn't have something to do with Christ.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Especially prophetic writings. I wound find it odd if a prophetic writing in the Bible didn't have something to do with Christ.
I would also add that when I read the OT I don't read it looking for hidden references to Christ but some of them stand out like a sore thumb... psalm 22 and Isa 53 for example.
I was surprised En Harkorre took Malachi's text as far out as he did to john the baptist. He usually sticks with a nearer meaning and shuns a prophetic interpretation.
 
Last edited:

En Hakkore

Well-known member
I was surprised En Harkorre took Malachi's text as far out as he did to john the baptist. He usually sticks with a nearer meaning and shuns a prophetic interpretation.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I have argued that several New Testament authors (Luke among others) understood the messenger of Mal 3:1 to be a reference to John... I did not embrace this as my own understanding of the text --- indeed, as you point out, I understand all "prophecy" to be uttered or penned with some sort of imminent fulfillment implied, otherwise it is pointless for the audience/readers.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I have argued that several New Testament authors (Luke among others) understood the messenger of Mal 3:1 to be a reference to John... I did not embrace this as my own understanding of the text --- indeed, as you point out, I understand all "prophecy" to be uttered or penned with some sort of imminent fulfillment implied, otherwise it is pointless for the audience/readers.
Thank you for clarifying your position. I understand Malachi to have prophesied directly to his contemporaries as well. But certain of his words are prophecies for a time much farther out and would only be fully understood when they are fulfilled, imo.
 
Why make it so complicated?
Angel just means a messenger of GOD .
It can be a being from GODs throne , Angel.
A prophet.


Angels Or Man

Angels or man can speak for GOD , as GOD with the authority of GOD .
Many examples of this .

Genesis 16:10 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Exodus 3:2 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Numbers 22:35 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

Judges 2:1 (KJV)
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.


All these are Angels speaking for GOD , as GOD .

The Angel of the LORD said , I ,I , I in all these verses .
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Why make it so complicated?
Angel just means a messenger of GOD .
It can be a being from GODs throne , Angel.
A prophet.


Angels Or Man

Angels or man can speak for GOD , as GOD with the authority of GOD .
Many examples of this .

Genesis 16:10 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Exodus 3:2 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Numbers 22:35 (KJV)
And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

Judges 2:1 (KJV)
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.


All these are Angels speaking for GOD , as GOD .

The Angel of the LORD said , I ,I , I in all these verses .
Everyone who has from God that what Jesus had from Him speak for God, we have His same mind, and walk in His same light no different from what Jesus did. We are His ambassadors if we speak from the same mind as Jesus spoke from in the father.

Never thought myself to be an angel though, and I bet if I asked my wife that question if I am, well -- you get the picture LOL.
 

jamesh

Well-known member
No, Jim harmon, these are "NOT" angels all speaking for God. There is only one angel of the Lord, period who speaks as God, and that is the preincarnate Jesus Christ.

Here's the proof from Genesis 22. You have at Genesis 22:11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham, and he said "here I am." Vs12, "And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

Then at vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because (or why?) YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."

Question for you? Why does God have an angel call out from heaven two times when God Himself has called out of heaven? (Exodus 20:22) God also called out of heaven in the NT at Mark 1:11. Here's another reason why the angel of the Lord is not an angle. This event that took place is made mention in the book of Hebrews at Hebrews 6:13-14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He/God could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

The point being that an angel or angels cannot swear an oath on behalf of God. Read Hebrews 6:16, "for men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute." Example! When a person goes to court as a witness they ask you to raise you right hand and swear, By so help you God." In short, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Also, swearing an oath is matter of ones personal conscience. Now, I have a lot more to say on this issue but right now I am pressed for time. I'll be back!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
No, Jim harmon, these are "NOT" angels all speaking for God. There is only one angel of the Lord, period who speaks as God, and that is the preincarnate Jesus Christ.

Here's the proof from Genesis 22. You have at Genesis 22:11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham, and he said "here I am." Vs12, "And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

Then at vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because (or why?) YOU HAVE OBEYED MY VOICE."

Question for you? Why does God have an angel call out from heaven two times when God Himself has called out of heaven? (Exodus 20:22) God also called out of heaven in the NT at Mark 1:11. Here's another reason why the angel of the Lord is not an angle. This event that took place is made mention in the book of Hebrews at Hebrews 6:13-14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He/God could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

The point being that an angel or angels cannot swear an oath on behalf of God. Read Hebrews 6:16, "for men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute." Example! When a person goes to court as a witness they ask you to raise you right hand and swear, By so help you God." In short, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself. Also, swearing an oath is matter of ones personal conscience. Now, I have a lot more to say on this issue but right now I am pressed for time. I'll be back!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Here's the puzzle...

Yes... the Angel of Jehovah was a manifestation of God as an angel...
But it could not have been Jesus Christ pre-incarnate. For, Jesus is humanity and God in union. Not angel and God in union..

The manifestation of the Angel of Jehovah? Had to be an angel. Not Jesus faking being an angel, for humanity is different than an angel.

In my opinion. What we need to start seeing? Is that before man was created? How God presented Himself to angels.

As we now know, Jesus came as God presenting himself to man as a man. And, how did God present Himself to the angels before man was created? How could God present Himself to angels as an angel?



Angels are spirits, not souls, like man. Jesus is a soul in union with Deity. So, who could be the Spirit of the Angel of Jehovah?

The Holy Spirit.

It was God the Holy Spirit who manifested Himself as God and angel in union, manifested to the angels before man existed.
God the Holy Spirit would appear to the angels as the Angel of Jehovah, just as Jesus Christ was God appearing to men as a man.

The Angel of Jehovah, like Jesus did, could easily have said to the angels.... "To see me is to see the Father."

In the same manner Jesus was able to say to men.....
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9​

Likewise the Angel of Jehovah was God's means to show Himself to angels in a manner that angels were able to relate to.

Its also why Satan and his angels felt free to reject the Lord just like men felt free to crucify Jesus.

For those men who rejected him? They saw Jesus as being only a man. Likewise, Satan and his angels saw the Angel of Jehovah as one of them, yet having authority over them.

Likewise, Jesus showed great authority to men with his miracles and words.

Its a parallel ....


grace and peace
 

jamesh

Well-known member
No, there is no puzzle so answer me this question that I made clear in my post. Can an angel swear an oath on behalf of God? Here's another question? What is the Hebrew word for "angel" and what does it literally mean? When you discover its meaning hopefully or at least I hope so you would realize how lame/stupid your idea of Jesus "faking" it.

And since you brought up John 14:9 let me exegete what's going on. Jesus is not God the Father as Oneness Pentecostals teach. The Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father (John 1:1, 18; 10:30; 12;45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

God the Father did not physically appear in the OT because He cannot be seen, even according to Jesus Christ Himself. John 5:37, John 6:46, according to the Apostle John at John 1:18 and according to the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 6:16. Finally, what part of Hebrews 6:13-16 don't you understand?

Oh yea, one more thing. AT Genesis 16:7, the angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. At vs10 he says, "I will multiply your descendants etc. At vs13 Hagar says, " Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a God who sees," for she said, "have I even remained alive after seeing Him" Cross reference this verse with Exodus 24:9-10. If you should need any more information on this subject, I'm all ears.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
No, there is no puzzle so answer me this question that I made clear in my post. Can an angel swear an oath on behalf of God? Here's another question? What is the Hebrew word for "angel" and what does it literally mean? When you discover its meaning hopefully or at least I hope so you would realize how lame/stupid your idea of Jesus "faking" it.

And since you brought up John 14:9 let me exegete what's going on. Jesus is not God the Father as Oneness Pentecostals teach. The Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father (John 1:1, 18; 10:30; 12;45; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

God the Father did not physically appear in the OT because He cannot be seen, even according to Jesus Christ Himself. John 5:37, John 6:46, according to the Apostle John at John 1:18 and according to the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 6:16. Finally, what part of Hebrews 6:13-16 don't you understand?

Oh yea, one more thing. AT Genesis 16:7, the angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. At vs10 he says, "I will multiply your descendants etc. At vs13 Hagar says, " Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a God who sees," for she said, "have I even remained alive after seeing Him" Cross reference this verse with Exodus 24:9-10. If you should need any more information on this subject, I'm all ears.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
May I ask? The Holy Spirit is not God in your eyes? Only Jesus?

Of course God the Father could not physically appear in the OT. The Father can not be seen.

Jesus does that now by being the fullness of Deity in bodily form. [Colossians 2:9]

Prior to the Incarnation of Jesus, when the Angel of Jehovah appeared it was the God being manifested physically as an angel, and originally to the angels before man was created.

Other than that? You sound very confused about what you assume you are supposed to believe.

Sorry... but I must state what I now know as being truth. The Angel of Jehovah was God appearing in angelic form as an angel. Not as humanity faking to be an angel. That is what it would have been if Jesus was the Angel of Jehovah.

Deity is the Father. God is omnipresent and can not be different from God!

Jesus is Deity (what the Father is) in union with humanity... humanity being a human soul. Jesus is God being expressed it its fullness as a man is able to express God.

The Holy Spirit is Deity in union with an angelic spirit.
Jesus is humanity = soul in union with God the Father.

Jesus can not be an angel. Jesus is soul and God in union. Jesus would have to be 'spirit' to be as an angel. That is where the Holy 'Spirit' fit in.

Its something to be understood....
 

jamesh

Well-known member
May I ask? The Holy Spirit is not God in your eyes? Only Jesus?

Of course God the Father could not physically appear in the OT. The Father can not be seen.

Jesus does that now by being the fullness of Deity in bodily form. [Colossians 2:9]

Prior to the Incarnation of Jesus, when the Angel of Jehovah appeared it was the God being manifested physically as an angel, and originally to the angels before man was created.

Other than that? You sound very confused about what you assume you are supposed to believe.

Sorry... but I must state what I now know as being truth. The Angel of Jehovah was God appearing in angelic form as an angel. Not as humanity faking to be an angel. That is what it would have been if Jesus was the Angel of Jehovah.

Deity is the Father. God is omnipresent and can not be different from God!

Jesus is Deity (what the Father is) in union with humanity... humanity being a human soul. Jesus is God being expressed it its fullness as a man is able to express God.

The Holy Spirit is Deity in union with an angelic spirit.
Jesus is humanity = soul in union with God the Father.

Jesus can not be an angel. Jesus is soul and God in union. Jesus would have to be 'spirit' to be as an angel. That is where the Holy 'Spirit' fit in.

Its something to be understood....
Your still not getting it. Everything I've been posting is to show that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." Tell me, how is that word defined?

I'm a Trinitarian and have been for 59 years, so don't tell me I'm confused. I've been on carm for almost 23 years and people know me and will vouch for me.

And no, Jesus is "NOT" the person of the Holy Spirit who happens to be the third person of the Godhead. Here is my question for you? Who physically appeard to Abraham and swore the oath that he multiply Abrahm's decendants and never break his covenant? Was it the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

IN HIM,
james
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Your still not getting it. Everything I've been posting is to show that Jesus Christ is "NOT" an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." Tell me, how is that word defined?

I'm a Trinitarian and have been for 59 years, so don't tell me I'm confused. I've been on carm for almost 23 years and people know me and will vouch for me.

And no, Jesus is "NOT" the person of the Holy Spirit who happens to be the third person of the Godhead. Here is my question for you? Who physically appeard to Abraham and swore the oath that he multiply Abrahm's decendants and never break his covenant? Was it the Father, Son or Holy Spirit?

IN HIM,
james
James...

Why ask a question when the Scriptures state the case?

Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you
fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Who spoke? An angel? THE Angel. It says so... Genesis 22:10-12

Keep in mind. If the Angel of Jehovah says something is so? He and Jesus are one on the matter. God is one.

Jesus could declare to all....
"If the Holy Spirit says it? I have said it. "

The difference between Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not what they say. It the means by which saying it that makes the difference. If the Angel of the Lord says something as the Angel? So has the Son and the Father. For God is one!

I am also a Trinitarian. Saved around age age 19. Today I am 73 years old. Not that, that should matter. For there are some 90 year old Jehovah Witnesses in the world. Would that make them right?

grace and peace.........
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
I understand all "prophecy" to be uttered or penned with some sort of imminent fulfillment implied, otherwise it is pointless for the audience/readers.
The book of Malachi has much to offer to his current audience/readers. That there are future prophecies about the Messiah interspersed doesn't make it completely pointless.
 

En Hakkore

Well-known member
That there are future prophecies about the Messiah interspersed doesn't make it completely pointless.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the book contains "future prophecies about the Messiah interspersed" and that these were fulfilled some five centuries later in the person of Jesus does make them pointless for the author's initial audience, as well as the author himself and all his readers down to the point they ostensibly came to pass.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Assuming for the sake of argument that the book contains "future prophecies about the Messiah interspersed" and that these were fulfilled some five centuries later in the person of Jesus does make them pointless for the author's initial audience, as well as the author himself and all his readers down to the point they ostensibly came to pass.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 For ancient writers and readers I apologize this makes this part meaningless to you since it's not immediate."
(Dan. 12:8-10)
 

En Hakkore

Well-known member
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 For ancient writers and readers I apologize this makes this part meaningless to you since it's not immediate."
(Dan. 12:8-10)
Thanks for the chuckle... of course, this (minus the new variant you discovered) is -- like all other prophetic texts -- aimed at an audience for whom the end is construed as imminent. That its prediction is placed in the mouth of a man who was supposed to have lived a few centuries earlier, giving the impression of divine origin due to the accurate predictions of succeeding empires (at least up until the author's time of writing after which it goes off the rails), is all part of the document's rhetorical appeal to those suffering under Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Kind regards,
Jonathan
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Assuming for the sake of argument that the book contains "future prophecies about the Messiah interspersed" and that these were fulfilled some five centuries later in the person of Jesus does make them pointless for the author's initial audience, as well as the author himself and all his readers down to the point they ostensibly came to pass.
It might give the reader and author hope for the future as well as instruction and comfort for us.
Romans 15:4
 
Last edited:

cjab

Well-known member
One thing is clear: the angel of the Lord isn't The Word or Jesus. Another this is that there is no real distinction between angel of the Lord and angel, as the two terms are used synonymously below:

Luk 2:9 2And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid."

Luk 2:10 "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

Luk 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
God has a soul and a spirit, Scriptures tell us this clearly. Angels and demons would also follow this format.

Humans have a spirit, soul and a body, the body is the extra part that pure spirits don't have.

Nowhere does God join the nature of the angels, this is condemned:

For, not surely of messengers, is he laying hold, but, of Abraham's seed, he is laying hold. (Heb. 2:16 ROT)
Show us one passage where it says an angel has a soul?

In the mean while.....


Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? Heb 1:14​
(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither
angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)
There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up
and argued vigorously. “We find nothing wrong with this man,” they said.
“What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?” Acts 23:8-9​

Yes... the term "angel" can be used to describe a messenger... But, we must know when 'angel' means an angel as well!


Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the
other at the foot.
They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”
“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” John 20:11-13​

Until the answer comes many notions may be used to patch up the leak....

grace and peace
 
Top