Answering robycop3

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
Okay, I decided to do some research and pose your questions to some friends of mine... Here is the Collective response to your six questions...

I assume you (robycop3) are bringing your own interpretations to these texts, which is why you are confused by the postmill preterist interpretation. A complete study of our interpretation would allow you to understand thoroughly, but this is not what that is. I am providing direct answers to questions regarding presumed passages. If you want a solid understanding of the postmill preterist perspective then I can recommend some books and videos for your further education. Please be ready to set aside your presuppositions and be open to learning what we believe. This will prevent you from the error of the straw-man fallacy.

1. Nero was never in Jerusalem in his life.
(Matt. 24:15 or 2 Thess. 2:4) if Matt 24:15 the "abomination of desolation" being spoken of is the Roman armies, not the Emperor himself. It is an abomination that causes desolation, which is exactly what happened. Luke's gospel makes it much clearer (Luke 21:20). If 2 Thess 2:4 then you should know that in the first century, emperor worship was quite popular and especially promoted by the Emperor himself. Nero, and certainly those prior and after him, could all be seen as one who will exalt himself above all so-called gods and so seats himself in the place, or temple, of God. It's specifically Nero because at the time of Paul's righting this letter (believed to be AD 52) Nero is being raised by his mother, so he is not yet revealed. Agrippina, Nero's mother, is also plotting the death of Claudius so that Nero can usurp him. This plot takes time which explains the restraint.

2. He had no miracle-working false prophet as a sidekick. (Revelation 13:11-15) the text never mentions the beast from the sea recruiting or advocating the beast from the land, though the reverse is mentioned. What is happening in this passage is that the beast from the land is apostate Israel. Remember what the Jews said at Jesus' trial? "We have no king but Caeser." And in Acts 17:6-7 "These men who have turned the world upside down have now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his home. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, named Jesus!” The Jews were the greatest threat to the early church and this is evidenced throughout the New Testament. Jesus calls them the children of Satan, their synagogues are called synagogues of Satan, they deny that Jesus is the Christ which is the definition of an antichrist. They are beasts from the land which is a Jewish reference to the holy land. This is a poetic/apocalyptic linguistic term used in the Old Testament and that is fitting with the context of Revelation because the book uses OT references very heavily. Some call Revelation a plagiarism because of the constant OT themes and references. So to answer the question, yes, Nero and the other emperors did have the Jews as a sort of sidekick, at least in the fight against Christians.

3. He was appointed as Caeser & confirmed by the Senate; he did NOT overthrow 3 other rulers to gain power (Daniel 7) this is a difficult passage to be sure. But I have found the interpretation of the little horn being Nero to be the most consistent. Specifically verse 8 "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots." So the verse says that the three kings before the little horn were plucked up by the roots. This is symbolic for an unnatural demise. The Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius claimed Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius all died unnatural deaths and they were the emperors before Nero. The verse does not claim that Nero killed them, just that they were uprooted before him.

4. He did not issue any mark of the beast that was implanted in the right hand or forehead. (Revelation 13:16-18) This passage, more than others, has been the cause of so much hysteria and rightful criticism of the Christian faith. Newspaper exegesis has led to so many different ideas of what the mark could mean and it's very sad. Even non-christians are superstitious of the number 666 (six hundred sixty six). The context of the passage should be noted, it is worship of the beast. The beast from the land is inciting the people to worship the beast from the sea. Their sign of worship is a mark on their right hand and forehead. Where else do you hear of a mark on the right hand and forehead? Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18. This is the greatest commandment, you shall love the LORD with your whole being. To show you love him you will worship Him in your actions (the mark on your hand) and worship Him in your thoughts (the mark on your forehead). It has already been established that emperors wanted to be worshipped as gods so it's not a stretch to say Nero demanded people to worship him instead of God. He demanded acts of obedience and thoughts of adoration.

5. He did not rule most of the world. (Revelation 13:3) Ya know what, you're right. Nero didn't rule most of the world. What's being employed here is hyperbolic language. Like how Luke says the emperor sent out a decree to tax the whole world (Luke 2:1) or when the Pharisees say that Jesus is leading the whole world after Him (John 12:19) or how Paul says that the gospel had already gone out to all the world (Colossians 1:6) and to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:23) in his day. So this is not an uncommon phrase for the bible, the NT or even Revelation. Revelation is full of hyperbolic language and that doesn't make any of it less true.

6. He was not cast alive into hell; he was stabbed by his scribe Ephphroditus, at his own command. (Revelation 19:20) It seems there is another misunderstanding here. In chapter 20:4-6 the saints are described as having been resurrected from the dead, the first resurrection, referring to regeneration. The second death mentioned in verse 14 is the end of the line, the lake of fire. Those in hell are dead (without regeneration) but still waiting to be thrown into the lake of fire which is described as the second death. Its really not complicated and very easy to understand. Nero was certainly not regenerated and the bible describes him as being thrown into the lake of fire when he dies. There is nothing wrong with this exception.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????
 

robycop3

Well-known member
Okay, I decided to do some research and pose your questions to some friends of mine... Here is the Collective response to your six questions...

I assume you (robycop3) are bringing your own interpretations to these texts, which is why you are confused by the postmill preterist interpretation. A complete study of our interpretation would allow you to understand thoroughly, but this is not what that is. I am providing direct answers to questions regarding presumed passages. If you want a solid understanding of the postmill preterist perspective then I can recommend some books and videos for your further education. Please be ready to set aside your presuppositions and be open to learning what we believe. This will prevent you from the error of the straw-man fallacy.

1. Nero was never in Jerusalem in his life.
(Matt. 24:15 or 2 Thess. 2:4) if Matt 24:15 the "abomination of desolation" being spoken of is the Roman armies, not the Emperor himself. It is an abomination that causes desolation, which is exactly what happened. Luke's gospel makes it much clearer (Luke 21:20). If 2 Thess 2:4 then you should know that in the first century, emperor worship was quite popular and especially promoted by the Emperor himself. Nero, and certainly those prior and after him, could all be seen as one who will exalt himself above all so-called gods and so seats himself in the place, or temple, of God. It's specifically Nero because at the time of Paul's righting this letter (believed to be AD 52) Nero is being raised by his mother, so he is not yet revealed. Agrippina, Nero's mother, is also plotting the death of Claudius so that Nero can usurp him. This plot takes time which explains the restraint.

2. He had no miracle-working false prophet as a sidekick. (Revelation 13:11-15) the text never mentions the beast from the sea recruiting or advocating the beast from the land, though the reverse is mentioned. What is happening in this passage is that the beast from the land is apostate Israel. Remember what the Jews said at Jesus' trial? "We have no king but Caeser." And in Acts 17:6-7 "These men who have turned the world upside down have now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his home. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, named Jesus!” The Jews were the greatest threat to the early church and this is evidenced throughout the New Testament. Jesus calls them the children of Satan, their synagogues are called synagogues of Satan, they deny that Jesus is the Christ which is the definition of an antichrist. They are beasts from the land which is a Jewish reference to the holy land. This is a poetic/apocalyptic linguistic term used in the Old Testament and that is fitting with the context of Revelation because the book uses OT references very heavily. Some call Revelation a plagiarism because of the constant OT themes and references. So to answer the question, yes, Nero and the other emperors did have the Jews as a sort of sidekick, at least in the fight against Christians.

3. He was appointed as Caeser & confirmed by the Senate; he did NOT overthrow 3 other rulers to gain power (Daniel 7) this is a difficult passage to be sure. But I have found the interpretation of the little horn being Nero to be the most consistent. Specifically verse 8 "I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots." So the verse says that the three kings before the little horn were plucked up by the roots. This is symbolic for an unnatural demise. The Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius claimed Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius all died unnatural deaths and they were the emperors before Nero. The verse does not claim that Nero killed them, just that they were uprooted before him.

4. He did not issue any mark of the beast that was implanted in the right hand or forehead. (Revelation 13:16-18) This passage, more than others, has been the cause of so much hysteria and rightful criticism of the Christian faith. Newspaper exegesis has led to so many different ideas of what the mark could mean and it's very sad. Even non-christians are superstitious of the number 666 (six hundred sixty six). The context of the passage should be noted, it is worship of the beast. The beast from the land is inciting the people to worship the beast from the sea. Their sign of worship is a mark on their right hand and forehead. Where else do you hear of a mark on the right hand and forehead? Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18. This is the greatest commandment, you shall love the LORD with your whole being. To show you love him you will worship Him in your actions (the mark on your hand) and worship Him in your thoughts (the mark on your forehead). It has already been established that emperors wanted to be worshipped as gods so it's not a stretch to say Nero demanded people to worship him instead of God. He demanded acts of obedience and thoughts of adoration.

5. He did not rule most of the world. (Revelation 13:3) Ya know what, you're right. Nero didn't rule most of the world. What's being employed here is hyperbolic language. Like how Luke says the emperor sent out a decree to tax the whole world (Luke 2:1) or when the Pharisees say that Jesus is leading the whole world after Him (John 12:19) or how Paul says that the gospel had already gone out to all the world (Colossians 1:6) and to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:23) in his day. So this is not an uncommon phrase for the bible, the NT or even Revelation. Revelation is full of hyperbolic language and that doesn't make any of it less true.

6. He was not cast alive into hell; he was stabbed by his scribe Ephphroditus, at his own command. (Revelation 19:20) It seems there is another misunderstanding here. In chapter 20:4-6 the saints are described as having been resurrected from the dead, the first resurrection, referring to regeneration. The second death mentioned in verse 14 is the end of the line, the lake of fire. Those in hell are dead (without regeneration) but still waiting to be thrown into the lake of fire which is described as the second death. Its really not complicated and very easy to understand. Nero was certainly not regenerated and the bible describes him as being thrown into the lake of fire when he dies. There is nothing wrong with this exception.
All humbugs. The AOD was mentioned by Daniel, who said it'd be SET UP & PLACED. Daniel's AOD was when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificed a pig upon the altar. Thus, the AOD mentioned by Jesus will be a similar event. (Remember, Jesus said "Let the reader understand.") It'll be when the beast/antichrist places & sets up a statue of himself in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem, stop all sacrifices in it, & declare himself God.

The AOD must be done in Jerusalem, & Nero was never there.

The FP will also be one man, who performs some miracles when his boss, the antichrist, is present.

The marka the beast will be a literal mark, some sorta implanted microchip or other small electronic device.

No one is in hell right now. The souls of the dead are in hades; the righteous in its paradise area, the wicked in the ;torments' area. Calling sheol/hades "hell" is a mistranslation in the KJV & a few other translations.The TRUE hell is gehenna, the lake of fire.
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????

Jesus is waiting for his enemies are made a footstool for him... Jesus is ruling... You think he isn't? Your view of Jesus is at best anemic.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
Jesus is waiting for his enemies are made a footstool for him... Jesus is ruling... You think he isn't? Your view of Jesus is at best anemic.
If He were ruling mankind with a rod of iron such as Rev. 19 says, how come sin is so prevalent? And Jesus certainly isn't PHYSICALLY here now.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
If He were ruling mankind with a rod of iron such as Rev. 19 says, how come sin is so prevalent? And Jesus certainly isn't PHYSICALLY here now.

 

robycop3

Well-known member
That book is horse feathers. Jesus said NO ONE, NOT EVEN HIMSELF, knows when He will return, except His Father. They may know the SEASON, but not the exact time until it happens.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
That book is horse feathers. Jesus said NO ONE, NOT EVEN HIMSELF, knows when He will return, except His Father. They may know the SEASON, but not the exact time until it happens.

So, you actually believe the Omniscient Jesus doesn't now know when he shall return?
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
No, because He Himself said He didn't know.

I know your problem... you are stuck in your theology... It's convenient to think Jesus doesn't know because he limited himself while on earth and didn't know then... now, 2,000 years later, the omniscient Jesus knows when he will return.. I even know... when his enemies are made a footstool...
 

robycop3

Well-known member
I know your problem... you are stuck in your theology... It's convenient to think Jesus doesn't know because he limited himself while on earth and didn't know then... now, 2,000 years later, the omniscient Jesus knows when he will return.. I even know... when his enemies are made a footstool...
Do you know WHEN His enemies will be made a footstool? As for Jesus now knowing exactly when He will return, we can only speculate.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
But he can't deal with this little prob:

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


We see from these verses that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, and, in reading the rest of Revelation, we see He won't leave earth again. Thus, if the beast has already come & gone, JESUS SHOULD STILL BE HERE, RULING THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON.

This destroys the ridiculous notions that Nero was the beast/antichrist, or the papacy was. This also wipes out preterism in general, as Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. So, evidently, it hasn't occurred, either.

Sorry, preterists, your doctrine is proven completely wrong by SCRIPTURE !
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
But he can't deal with this little prob:

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


We see from these verses that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, and, in reading the rest of Revelation, we see He won't leave earth again. Thus, if the beast has already come & gone, JESUS SHOULD STILL BE HERE, RULING THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON.

This destroys the ridiculous notions that Nero was the beast/antichrist, or the papacy was. This also wipes out preterism in general, as Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. So, evidently, it hasn't occurred, either.

Sorry, preterists, your doctrine is proven completely wrong by SCRIPTURE !

Roby, you're such a backyard theologian... You still have to deal with Cain's wife... Where did she come from again?
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
Roby, you're such a backyard theologian... You still have to deal with Cain's wife... Where did she come from again?
How about something like this:

God made humans to show his plan, his commandments, etc. God made Cain's wife. If Cain's wife came from Adam & Eve, then God sent Cain out to sin by laying with his sister. (He is omniscient, after all.)

God would never tempt someone to sin in such a manner. It makes more sense that he created people outside of the future Israeli line (from Adam, through Noah, to Abraham, etc.) When the flood came (unless you want to claim God had no foreknowledge of the flood), God wiped out all but the Israeli line.

All conjecture. Just a thought. Not explicitly told. But then again Cain's wife coming from Adam and Eve isn't either. We are all just guessing on this point.

------

Just wondering: What is the bible to you? Obviously, the Gospel message. But if, IF, big IF, God created other races that would be wiped out in the flood, does your reasoning say that this bible has to explain that, or even mention that? Other than, perhaps, big perhaps, someone like Cain's wife?
 
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