Anti crowd changes the meaning of words

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guest1

Guest
I've noticed a consistent thing with most of those who oppose Calvinism on the forum. They will take the simple and universal definition of basic words and redefine them to oppose calvinism. We see this happen daily here on the forum. Here are just a few examples and I might work on compiling a list of them.

1-Dead. We see this happen daily here where dead really is not dead but alive. The definition of dead is a not being able to respond to stimuli hence a corpse. A corpse cannot respond to any stimuli because the body is dead, void of life. It is not alive and therefor it is dead( unable to respond to stimuli. In both Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 we read that we were dead(unable to respond to stimuli) in our sins when God made us alive. This is exactly what we see happen in both the physical and spiritual realms. Lazarus is an example of one who was dead unable to respond until Jesus put life back into Him and called him from the grave to come forth. The spiritual dead is no different until Jesus give us life via regeneration we cannot respond to any "spiritual stimuli" just as the physical dead cannot respond to physical stimuli through the 5 senses.

2- Spiritual- This is another word that gets abused. The spiritual man is a person who has the spirit in them and is controlled by the spirit of God. It is the exact opposite of the natural man who does not have the spirit in them. See 1 Corinthians 2 for the distinctions, comparisons and contrasts.

3- Natural- In 1 Corinthians 2:616, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).

Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).

Let’s look at some other uses in the Bible of the word natural. In Romans 11:21 we read, “For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.” In 1 Corinthians 15:44-46, “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, then there is also a spiritual body. …However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.” Ezekiel 44:31 speaks of a natural death. Daniel 10:8 speaks of a natural color. James 1:23 speaks of a natural face, and James 3:15 states, “This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.”

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. The Greek word psuchikos (“natural”) can be defined as “animal,” as opposed to “spiritual.” Natural men are those who are occupied with the things of this material world to the exclusion of the things of God. They are led by instinct rather than by the Spirit of God. They intuitively choose sin over righteousness. They are the “pagans” Jesus refers to in Matthew 6:32 who only seek after the things of this world.

The supernatural work of God is to change the natural man into a spiritual one. When a person trusts Christ, God exchanges what is natural (received from Adam) for what is spiritual (received from Christ). “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). The Christian life is, therefore, a supernatural one. We do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1).got?

4- Eternal- This is another word we see redefined by the opposition. They change the meaning of eternal which means never ending, without end, endless, everlasting etc....... They would have us believe it means temporal, ending, comes to an end, conditional and other adjectives not associated with eternal. They say the opposite of Jesus and the Apostles teaching that I give them Eternal Life and nothing/no one can snatch one of them away from Jesus or the Fathers hands. That Eternal Life is a promise here and now as well as in the future in the Resurrection.

5- Predestination, Election, Foreknowledge-Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure. As Romans 9:15-16 says, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Similarly, Romans 9:11 declares regarding Jacob and Esau, “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls.” Then again in Ephesians 1:11 we see that people are “chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” From these and many other passages, we see that Scripture consistently teaches that predestination or election is not based upon something that we do or will do. God predestined people based on His own sovereign will to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue, and nation. God predetermined or predestined this from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) based solely on His sovereign will and not because of anything that He knew the people would do.

But what about Romans 8:29 where it says that those “He foreknew, He also predestined”? Doesn’t that seem to say that predestination is based upon the foreknowledge of God? Of course, the answer is yes, it does teach that predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God. But what does the word foreknowledge mean? Does it mean “based upon God’s knowledge of the future,” meaning God simply looks down through the future and sees who will believe the gospel message and then predestines or elects them? If that were the case, it would contradict the verses above from Romans and Ephesians that make it very clear election is not based on anything man does or will do.

Fortunately, God does not leave us to wonder about this issue. In John10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for “adoption as sons in Christ Jesus” before they ever existed.

The following quote by John Murray is excellent in dealing with this issue: "Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means the foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; He foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith He himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; 2 Peter 1:2). Hence His eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by His decree to generate this faith in those whom He foresees as believing."got ?

I will add others to the list. Any more suggestions ?

hope this helps !!!
 
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guest1

Guest
Slave is another word that gets abused by the anti crowd. In their world a slave is actually free and not bound to its master and under his absolute control and authority. So when scripture calls unbelievers slaves of sin that person is actually able to freely choose to not be a slave and is actually free and has his freedom to do whatever he so chooses. Scripture declares that sin is out Master and we are its slaves under its complete control and authority.

SLAVE, n.

1. A person who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who has no will of his own, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another. In the early state of the world, and to this day among some barbarous nations, prisoners of war are considered and treated as slaves. The slaves of modern times are more generally purchased, like horses and oxen.

2. One who has lost the poser of resistance; or one who surrenders himself to any power whatever; as a slave to passion, to lust, to ambition.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
...
1-Dead. We see this happen daily here where dead really is not dead but alive. The definition of dead is a not being able to respond to stimuli hence a corpse. ...
Can the dead respond to lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member
1. A person who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who has no will of his own, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another. In the early state of the world, and to this day among some barbarous nations, prisoners of war are considered and treated as slaves. The slaves of modern times are more generally purchased, like horses and oxen.

How gracious the Lord is! He takes those who are slaves to sin and makes them bondservants to His yoke which isn't a burden - which is light to carry. What a Lord we serve.
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member

And it is that distinction that makes the whole man a slave to sin in his body and soul before His conversion and when his spirit is dead to God and incapable of responding to any spiritual truth. The whole objection of the LFW brigade is predicated on that distinction. They cannot believe that they were incapable of believing God and always imagine that they have when they were spiritually dead - physically alive and always driven about by sin and death. So instead of accepting the Father's estimation they choose Him instead of believing Him. And then they carry that precept into the churches and sow confusion.
 
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guest1

Guest
And it is that distinction that makes the whole man a slave to sin in his body and soul before His conversion and when his spirit is dead to God and incapable of responding to any spiritual truth. The whole objection of the LFW brigade is predicated on that distinction. They cannot believe that they were incapable of believing God and always imagine that they have when they were spiritually dead - physically alive and always driven about by sin and death. So instead of accepting the Father's estimation they choose Him instead of believing Him. And then they carry that precept into the churches and sow confusion.
Spot on !
 
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TomFL

Guest
I've noticed a consistent thing with most of those who oppose Calvinism on the forum. They will take the simple and universal definition of basic words and redefine them to oppose calvinism. We see this happen daily here on the forum. Here are just a few examples and I might work on compiling a list of them.

1-Dead. We see this happen daily here where dead really is not dead but alive. The definition of dead is a not being able to respond to stimuli hence a corpse. A corpse cannot respond to any stimuli because the body is dead, void of life. It is not alive and therefor it is dead( unable to respond to stimuli. In both Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 we read that we were dead(unable to respond to stimuli) in our sins when God made us alive. This is exactly what we see happen in both the physical and spiritual realms. Lazarus is an example of one who was dead unable to respond until Jesus put life back into Him and called him from the grave to come forth. The spiritual dead is no different until Jesus give us life via regeneration we cannot respond to any "spiritual stimuli" just as the physical dead cannot respond to physical stimuli through the 5 senses.

Luke 15:23–26 (KJV 1900)
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

Revelation 3 (KJV 1900)
3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
 
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TomFL

Guest
3- Natural- In 1 Corinthians 2:616, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).

Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).

Let’s look at some other uses in the Bible of the word natural. In Romans 11:21 we read, “For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.” In 1 Corinthians 15:44-46, “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, then there is also a spiritual body. …However the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.” Ezekiel 44:31 speaks of a natural death. Daniel 10:8 speaks of a natural color. James 1:23 speaks of a natural face, and James 3:15 states, “This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.”

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. The Greek word psuchikos (“natural”) can be defined as “animal,” as opposed to “spiritual.” Natural men are those who are occupied with the things of this material world to the exclusion of the things of God. They are led by instinct rather than by the Spirit of God. They intuitively choose sin over righteousness. They are the “pagans” Jesus refers to in Matthew 6:32 who only seek after the things of this world.

The supernatural work of God is to change the natural man into a spiritual one. When a person trusts Christ, God exchanges what is natural (received from Adam) for what is spiritual (received from Christ). “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). The Christian life is, therefore, a supernatural one. We do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1).got?
Notice it is the natural man who trust and is changed to a spiritual man

It is not one is first changed to a spiritual man and then trusts

Further the same Morris notes

the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11). The Spirit, of course, may use His Word and the witness of believers guided by Him to accomplish this.

The word and wirnesses are sufficient to convict and enable the natural man

Scripture of course shows the sufficiency of the word of God

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

t
 
G

guest1

Guest
You have not stated whether your OP was referring to physical or spiritual dead corpse.
Can the dead respond to the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
Look there are two types of dead.

Physically- corpse
Spiritually- unable to respond to God, dead cannot respond to spiritual stimuli like the corpse cannot respond to physical stimuli .

So are you going to answer ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
But what about Romans 8:29 where it says that those “He foreknew, He also predestined”? Doesn’t that seem to say that predestination is based upon the foreknowledge of God? Of course, the answer is yes, it does teach that predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God. But what does the word foreknowledge mean? Does it mean “based upon God’s knowledge of the future,” meaning God simply looks down through the future and sees who will believe the gospel message and then predestines or elects them? If that were the case, it would contradict the verses above from Romans and Ephesians that make it very clear election is not based on anything man does or will do.

Fortunately, God does not leave us to wonder about this issue. In John10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for “adoption as sons in Christ Jesus” before they ever existed.

The following quote by John Murray is excellent in dealing with this issue: "Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means the foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; He foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith He himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; 2 Peter 1:2). Hence His eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by His decree to generate this faith in those whom He foresees as believing."got ?

I will add others to the list. Any more suggestions ?

hope this helps !!!

Romans 8:29 cannot be detached from Romans 8:28

Romans 8:28-30 (NASB77)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

as the conjunction for ties it to what was stated previously

Paul is speaking of those who had Loved God and were known by God previously

You will note these people were predestined called justified. glorified (aorist active indicative))

Being glorified notes

These were people who had lived and died

Foreknowledge here refers to those God knew in the past as here

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

God's foreknowledge here concerns Elijah who God knew previously
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Look there are two types of dead.
Your OP did not specify which; Lazarus was physically dead unable to respond.

Physically- corpse
Spiritually- unable to respond to God, dead cannot respond to spiritual stimuli like the corpse cannot respond to physical stimuli .
...
Can a spiritually dead corpse respond to the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Your OP did not specify which; Lazarus was physically dead unable to respond.


Can a spiritually dead corpse respond to the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
Read the OP and come to your own conclusion I’m not playing your question games. It’s self explanatory.

The dead cannot respond to stimuli . So pick your poison . Physical or Spiritual?

Figure it out this time and put on your thinking cap if you have one .

hope this helps !!!
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Read the OP and come to your own conclusion I’m not playing your question games. It’s self explanatory.

The dead cannot respond to stimuli . So pick your poison . Physical or Spiritual?

Figure it out this time and put on your thinking cap if you have one .

hope this helps !!!
Can a spiritually dead corpse respond to the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Can a spiritually dead corpse respond to the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life, or evil spirits?
Are those spiritual from God ?

there in lies the answer to your question .

anyone else want to swing and miss like mr peanut gallery ?
 
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