Anti crowd changes the meaning of words

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guest1

Guest
Yes I disagree

Either they are Christ's or they are not
Do you disagree that receiving the promised Holy Spirit is conditional ......or....... That some of God's children fail to receive the promise......or both?
One cannot be a child of God apart from the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Any more oxymoronic statements you care to share with us today ?
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
One cannot be a child of God apart from the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Any more oxymoronic statements you care to share with us today ?
So...... You are claiming upon the sovereign act of regeneration the now regenerate immediately/simultaneously has the promised indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Here is a simple question......were the 11 disciples children of God prior to Pentecost?

Answer.....of course they were.

Your erroroneous statement is exposed .
 
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Oldsaint24

Well-known member
One cannot be a child of God apart from the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Any more oxymoronic statements you care to share with us today ?
Hey hete is another question.....

Were the OT saints that loved and worshipped God......were they His children? Was Moses , David, Abraham., Isaac , Jacob , etc. spiritually alive (regenetate) children of God?
Amswer.....yes, of course they were.

Again, you stand corrected.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Never aid you did. You don't have to read John Calvin to preach his doctrines.
How can I preach his doctrines if I never read what the man wrote?

You should get some idea that because God reveals His truth through the Holy Spirit that believers hold the same doctrines.
These are not the doctrines of man that you believe them to be.

Rather, someone like you, or Jim Jones or David Koresh, or a Jehovah's witness or a Mormon who hold to the idea that you can understand all spiritual truths in the natural and then decide what you want to believe, are the ones who have doctrines of men.

You are effectively cancelling out the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those He regenerates. Your belief system comes down to the basic fact that you caused regeneration to take place in your life through a self will decision.
The problem you have is that is not biblical at all and not inspired by the Holy Spirit. You have faith without revelatio

That i a crock and it is not supported by a logical and reasonable application of definition and sane understanding of common words, with which God expresses himself. You are a false teacher by continuing to make such claims in spite of being corrected with the scriptures.
Revelation from God is to you a crock of what to you?
I do not have a problem with common words.
What I and the word of God and what you call a crock take exception to is that YOU believe contrary to the plain and simple meaning of the Bible that NO ONE (including all of you) can discern the spiritual in the natural.

To you that is a crock of what?
The common John Calvin doctrines are preached here everyday by those who attempt to prove him right when a disagreement with the scriptures manifests themselves.
Now you just display ignorance, pure and simple.
You call them doctrines of John Calvin, when I told you I never even read the man.
You are building a straw man around an individual. A scarecrow as another poster put it. You are so blinded by this, that you are unable to accept revelation by God.

You say I am in disagreement with the scriptures while claiming at the same time you can use your God given faculties to interpret the scriptures without spiritual discernment, or without revelation given to you by the Spirit of God.
Another poster here claims that because the word is inspired by God you don't need revelation, all you have to do it is read it, and you can use your God given faculties to understand it.

That is the same stuff the cultists believe.
He can reason or you need to take Isa 1:18 out of your bible. That is one thing, if John Calvin is not doing the counting.
You are making the claim for everyone to see that the reasoning of the natural man is pleasing to God and appeal to:
18 Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:
though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

Your assumption as it is wont to be, is that you can reason with God who is a SPIRIT in the natural. That it is your wisdom He seeks and that your reasoning power is pleasing to Him. When you live in the Spirit as you must, then God reasons with you, and you are in a love relationship and you can communicate with Him through prayer.

This is just more of an example that you are far from God. I say that because this is what God says about the reasoning of the natural man:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.

So what discernment have you discerned about God in the natural, what reasoning have you oh man done with God in the natural?

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

This is insane reasoning.
Is it:
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If I tell you it is raining outside and you need an umbrella to stay dry, I can be sure you believe me if you pick up an umbrella. You have demonstrated faith in what I said.
You conflate understanding things in the natural and discerning spiritual truths.
Weather in the spirit or not, I can take someone at their word about the weather. There is no spiritual truth contained within.

I want you to slow down and think for a moment. I am NOT saying your reasoning faculties about everyday things and occurrences does not exist.
I stand on the word that says the natural man (as opposed to a spiritual man) cannot discern or understand SPIRITUAL truths.
This means the natural man who is not spiritual, cannot reason with God.
This is the thing you have a problem with, and as seen by your response you have no clue about.

Your biased thinking subscribes something to me that is not even true of me.

Now I will ask you plain and simple, do you too believe the scripture that says the natural man cannot understand or discern the spiritual, but that the spiritual man can understand or discern spiritual truths because they are spiritually discerned?
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14

You saying that you used your natural God given faculties to discern that you want to choose to believe is therefore false.

Here is God who says some things about us being sinners and damned to hell because of it and he says to us that he has provided a way for us to have life and he explains it in a book he has written to us and all he asks us to do is to believe it from the heart, which will include a different emphasis for our life, and he will save us from the penalty, then from the power, and then from the possibility of sin. The evidence for salvation is a changed life and one that is lived under his direction.
Correct, however you presume that it is possible for all men to figure this out for themselves. You claim that you can give the exact same information to two people next to each other, and one will be clever enough to understand something that should be spiritually discerned and the other one understands it as well, but chooses to voluntarily go to the lake of fire.

What you lack in your paragraph above is the God given spiritual revelation to understand those truths.
On the day of Pentecost, Peter spoke to a large crowd. From that crowd, 3000 men were cut to the heart.
What about the others that were there. Why were they not cut to the heart?
Your premise must come to the conclusion that they were just not clever enough to reason with God.

My premise is that they did not receive Spiritual revelation.
I am telling you that the gospel you preach will result in your going to hell. It cannot save because it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You don't even know me, nor do you understand that doctrine is not the full gospel.
You also do not even understand that when preaching the gospel, it is not I, but rather the Spirit of God that brings revelation to those He chooses to and who hears the gospel message.
27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him

I therefore do not accept your condemnation of me. If you are unable to perceive spiritual truths because you want to keep the sovereignty of your natural free will choices intact, I will leave the judging up to God.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Do you disagree that receiving the promised Holy Spirit is conditional ......or....... That some of God's children fail to receive the promise......or both?
Yes just as I said

Your view is unbiblical

Romans 8:9 (ASV)
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Yes just as I said

Your view is unbiblical

Romans 8:9 (ASV)
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
But it is Biblically correct......and I am not dicounting your position. Your stand is adressing obedient children of God .....children the Father gives to Jesus. You are not accounting for disobedient rebellious unforgiving or just plain foolish children of God who are obviously not given to Jesus. Are you honestly going to tell me such children of God do not exist? If that be the case.....why all the warnings and admonitions by Jesus and the Bible?

Here is a simple question relative to your quoted scripture......can a child of God live in the flesh? Is that possible?
 
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TomFL

Guest
One cannot be a child of God apart from the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Any more oxymoronic statements you care to share with us today ?
I take it your comments were to Oldsaint and you agree

Either they are Christ's or they are not

If they have the Holy Spirit they are Christ's if they do not then they are not

Romans 8:9 (ASV)
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
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TomFL

Guest
But it is Biblically correct......and I am not dicounting your position. Your stand is adressing obedient children of God .....children the Father gives to Jesus. You are not accounting for disobedient rebellious unforgiving or just plain foolish children of God who are obviously not given to Jesus. Are you honestly going to tell me such children of God do not exist? If that be the case.....why all the warnings and admonitions by Jesus and the Bible?

Here is a simple question relative to your quoted scripture......can a child of God live in the flesh? Is that possible?
No it is not correct

If you have the Spirit you are Christ's if you do not you are not

Its that's simple

Can a Christian get in the flesh yes at times can they always live in the flesh no
 
G

guest1

Guest
Hey hete is another question.....

Were the OT saints that loved and worshipped God......were they His children? Was Moses , David, Abraham., Isaac , Jacob , etc. spiritually alive (regenetate) children of God?
Amswer.....yes, of course they were.

Again, you stand corrected.
Sorry you don't get to ask more questions without answering mine. That is now how things work here.

Was Cain a child of God ? yes or no
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
Sorry you don't get to ask more questions without answering mine. That is now how things work here.

Was Cain a child of God ? yes or no
Start a thread about Cain.....make clear your position concerning both Cain and Able. I will gladly participate.

Oh I also noticed you did not acknowlege your error and false statement about what I wrote......I always write the truth. And you or anyone else has not proven otherwise.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
No it is not correct

If you have the Spirit you are Christ's if you do not you are not

Its that's simple

Can a Christian get in the flesh yes at times can they always live in the flesh no
First of all I am not speaking about Christians but about children of God.

And why you want to ignore the existence of naughty disobedient unforgiving immoral covetous foolish etc. children of God and how the Father deals with them is baffling. But you have the freewill to do that.
 

JDS

Well-known member
I want you to slow down and think for a moment. I am NOT saying your reasoning faculties about everyday things and occurrences does not exist.
I stand on the word that says the natural man (as opposed to a spiritual man) cannot discern or understand SPIRITUAL truths.
This means the natural man who is not spiritual, cannot reason with God.
This is the thing you have a problem with, and as seen by your response you have no clue about.

Your biased thinking subscribes something to me that is not even true of me.

Now I will ask you plain and simple, do you too believe the scripture that says the natural man cannot understand or discern the spiritual, but that the spiritual man can understand or discern spiritual truths because they are spiritually discerned?
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor 2:14
While I am responding to your comments I want you to understand that1 Cor 2 is written as a rebuke to saved people. The subject matter of the rebuke is not whether they can be saved or what kind of mental condition must exist for them to understand the gospel of Christ, but the rebuke is because they are not spiritual. They are not mature in the faith. They are babes. They have childish behavior, like what Christian leader they most identify with. This condition secures them a place of ignorance of the meaty doctrines of the Christian faith and guarantees they dine on milk. Well, take a look at a portion of Paul's instruction to them.


1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

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This church was inundated with false apostles and false teachers for this very reason. Satan sent his teachers into this church by the droves to undermine the faith. Paul had to deal with many false doctrines and he had to rebuke them because they followed these angels of darkness rather than the true apostle with a proven track record and a man who was commissioned as the apostle to the gentiles.


Paul speaks of these false apostles who lighted upon this church here and must defend himself because these carnal Christians would not defend his apostleship.

2 Cor 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ’s, even so [are] we Christ’s.
8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
10 For [his] letters, say they, [are] weighty and powerful; but [his] bodily presence [is] weak, and [his] speech contemptible.
11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present.
12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond [our measure], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [preaching] the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men’s labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the [regions] beyond you, [and] not to boast in another man’s line of things made ready to our hand.
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

You can read the next chapter for his comparison of his labors and sufferings in the Lord compared to theirs.

The final thing God says to these Christians in Corinth is a dire warning. If they never mature in the faith they should check their salvation to be sure they are saved.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

I will be honest with you here, Manfred, I have no confidence in Calvinism and the Calvinists who preach it. I read what you fellows say. What you say is opposed to the truths that are revealed in the scriptures. You have a false gospel and claim that men cannot be saved by believing the words of God when he invites sinners to come through the name of Jesus Christ and he will save every one who will.

Edit per mod.


I ask you to repent.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
First of all I am not speaking about Christians but about children of God.

And why you want to ignore the existence of naughty disobedient unforgiving immoral covetous foolish etc. children of God and how the Father deals with them is baffling. But you have the freewill to do that.
To be a son of anybody requires a birth. Two births are required to be the son of God. The first birth of the flesh, of Adam, and the second birth of those born into the family of Adam. to be born again of the Spirit of God.

The argument is advanced that those born of Abraham are not children of God because of that birth, but those who are born specifically of Isaac, who is a picture of the miraculous new birth and the source for it in type. It is the second birth that matters, hence all the men of God are those born second.

Cain & Abel
Japheth and Shem
Ishmael & Isaac
Adam & Jesus
The theme goes all through the Bible.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

As you can see, Israel, collectively, is the son of God, born after the flesh. This son, like any son of man, must have a new birth. He must be born again. All the OT prophets anticipate this happening in the future "day of the Lord." God even illustrated this further in the OT when he divided Israel and Judah. Israel represented the flesh and Judah represented the Spiritual man through whom Jesus Christ could do his work. In the resurrection the flesh (the body -Israel, the 10 tribes) will be joined to the spirit ( Judah, the southern two tribes - the soul) and Israel will be one new man with the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding him in every action. He will be a trinity.

Speaking of this, Paul says the following, if you are thinking typology in Romans chapters 7 - 11.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

God illustrated these truths in the two kingdoms of Israel in OT times, as well as in other ways.

Everyone who is born again is the son of God and will go to heaven when they die. Everyone who is not born again is not the son of God and will not go to heaven when they die. The church is a collective unit and is the body of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is in heaven now. Collectively, we are the son of God because we are joined to our head, Jesus Christ. When the whole body is glorified, at the resurrection, we will join him in heaven in the Father's house. In typology, Israel of the "old" testament represents the flesh, who is in sin and has no power to live for God and the church of the "new" testament represents the born again man who is filled with the Spirit of God and has great power to please God. Everything about this resurrected man is new. He is a new creature, awaiting a new body, in which he will live in the new Jerusalem, in the new heaven and new earth.

The Bible is a work from an infinite mind and it cannot be studied and understood from a finite mind. God must give us the keys to open our understanding, and he does, in the "words" he has given to us in the KJV. These new bibles are the works of the flesh. These truths will not be learned from them because the words are different.
 

Oldsaint24

Well-known member
To be a son of anybody requires a birth. Two births are required to be the son of God. The first birth of the flesh, of Adam, and the second birth of those born into the family of Adam. to be born again of the Spirit of God.

The argument is advanced that those born of Abraham are not children of God because of that birth, but those who are born specifically of Isaac, who is a picture of the miraculous new birth and the source for it in type. It is the second birth that matters, hence all the men of God are those born second.

Cain & Abel
Japheth and Shem
Ishmael & Isaac
Adam & Jesus
The theme goes all through the Bible.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

As you can see, Israel, collectively, is the son of God, born after the flesh. This son, like any son of man, must have a new birth. He must be born again. All the OT prophets anticipate this happening in the future "day of the Lord." God even illustrated this further in the OT when he divided Israel and Judah. Israel represented the flesh and Judah represented the Spiritual man through whom Jesus Christ could do his work. In the resurrection the flesh (the body -Israel, the 10 tribes) will be joined to the spirit ( Judah, the southern two tribes - the soul) and Israel will be one new man with the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding him in every action. He will be a trinity.

Speaking of this, Paul says the following, if you are thinking typology in Romans chapters 7 - 11.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

God illustrated these truths in the two kingdoms of Israel in OT times, as well as in other ways.

Everyone who is born again is the son of God and will go to heaven when they die. Everyone who is not born again is not the son of God and will not go to heaven when they die. The church is a collective unit and is the body of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is in heaven now. Collectively, we are the son of God because we are joined to our head, Jesus Christ. When the whole body is glorified, at the resurrection, we will join him in heaven in the Father's house. In typology, Israel of the "old" testament represents the flesh, who is in sin and has no power to live for God and the church of the "new" testament represents the born again man who is filled with the Spirit of God and has great power to please God. Everything about this resurrected man is new. He is a new creature, awaiting a new body, in which he will live in the new Jerusalem, in the new heaven and new earth.

The Bible is a work from an infinite mind and it cannot be studied and understood from a finite mind. God must give us the keys to open our understanding, and he does, in the "words" he has given to us in the KJV. These new bibles are the works of the flesh. These truths will not be learned from them because the words are different.
Please answer this scenario. .....the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates a spiritually dead child of man........is that now regenerate individual immediately/simultaneously a Christian?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
While I am responding to your comments I want you to understand that1 Cor 2 is written as a rebuke to saved people. The subject matter of the rebuke is not whether they can be saved or what kind of mental condition must exist for them to understand the gospel of Christ, but the rebuke is because they are not spiritual. They are not mature in the faith. They are babes. They have childish behavior, like what Christian leader they most identify with. This condition secures them a place of ignorance of the meaty doctrines of the Christian faith and guarantees they dine on milk. Well, take a look at a portion of Paul's instruction to them.
Nonsense, and not the context of the chapter at all.

And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.

a. When I came to you: Paul’s arrival in Corinth is described in Acts 18. He came and met a Christian couple named Aquila and Priscilla, who were tentmakers by trade, like Paul. He ministered in Corinth for more than a year and a half, supporting himself by tent making.

b. Did not come with excellence of speech: Paul didn’t come as a philosopher or a salesman; he came as a witness (declaring to you the testimony of God).

i. Paul was certainly a man who could reason and debate persuasively, but he didn’t use that approach in preaching the gospel. He made a conscious decision (I determined) to put the emphasis on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Paul was an ambassador, not a salesman.

ii. In taking this approach, Paul understood he didn’t cater to what his audience wanted. “Corinth put a premium on the veneer of false rhetoric and thin thinking” (Barclay). He already knew the Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:22), but he does not seem to care. He will preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

iii. If a preacher is not careful, he will get in the way of the gospel instead of being a servant of the gospel. They can obscure Jesus by their preaching, either in the presentation or the message. Like the little girl, who when a smaller man was guest speaking could finally see the stained glass window of Jesus behind the pulpit said, “Where’s the man who usually stands there so we can’t see Jesus?”

c. Not to know anything “does not mean that he left all other knowledge aside, but rather that he had the gospel, with its crucified Messiah, as his singular focus and passion while he was among them.” (Fee)


d. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling: Paul was not brimming with self-confidence. Knowing the need and his own limitations made him weak and afraid. Yet it kept him from the poison of self-reliance, and let God’s strength flow.

i. Vincent says the implication of 1 Corinthians 2:3 is that his condition grew out of the circumstances in which he found himself in Corinth. Paul’s weakness, fear, and trembling could have been the result of an illness he suffered under while in Corinth, or some (like Calvin) believe it was because of the threat of persecution.

ii. Whatever the cause, “So great was his sense of weakness and fear, and so profound his lack of trust in himself that he quaked, he trembled. Those are the secrets of strength in all preaching.” (G. Campbell Morgan)

e. Not with persuasive words: Paul is not rejecting preaching, even persuasive preaching (his sermon before Agrippa in Acts 26 is a remarkable example of persuasive preaching). Paul is rejecting any reliance on the preacher’s ability to persuade with human wisdom.

i. “It is ours to speak the truth boldly, and in every case we shall be a sweet savour unto God; but to temporise in the hope of making converts is to do evil that good may come, and this is never to be thought of for an instant.” (Spurgeon)

f. But in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: Paul knew it is the preacher’s job to preach and it is the Holy Spirit’s job to demonstrate. Paul’s preaching may not have been impressive or persuasive on a human level, but on a spiritual level it had power.

2. (5) The reason for reliance on the Spirit instead of human wisdom.

That your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

a. That your faith should not be in the wisdom of men: Preaching strategies centered on the wisdom of men – around emotion, entertainment and human personality – may yield response, but not results for the kingdom of God.

i. Many people use slick, entertaining, or even deceptive means to “lure” people into the church, and justify it by saying, “we’re drawing them in and then winning them to Jesus.” But the principle stands: what you draw them with is what you draw them to.

b. Not be in the wisdom of men: If someone’s faith is in the wisdom of men, and not the power of God; if someone can be persuaded into the kingdom by human wisdom, they can also be persuaded out of the kingdom by human wisdom.

B. Paul preaches real wisdom, not the wisdom of men.​

1. (6-8) God’s wisdom is not recognized by this age.

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

a. However, we speak wisdom: Just because Paul would not cater to the Corinthian love of human wisdom does not mean that his message had no wisdom. In fact, there is a vast wealth of wisdom sealed off to everyone except the Christian.

b. Among those who are mature: Who are the mature Paul could speak this wisdom to? Some think the line is drawn between saved and unsaved, others think it is between mature and immature believers.

i. Paul does use the word mature for mature believers in passages like Ephesians 4:13, 1 Corinthians 14:20, and Philippians 3:15. An immature person (such as a baby) doesn’t have the discernment to know what is good to eat and what isn’t. A baby will put anything into its mouth.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
While I am responding to your comments I want you to understand that1 Cor 2 is written as a rebuke to saved people. The subject matter of the rebuke is not whether they can be saved or what kind of mental condition must exist for them to understand the gospel of Christ, but the rebuke is because they are not spiritual. They are not mature in the faith. They are babes. They have childish behavior, like what Christian leader they most identify with. This condition secures them a place of ignorance of the meaty doctrines of the Christian faith and guarantees they dine on milk. Well, take a look at a portion of Paul's instruction to them.
c. Which none of the rulers of this age knew: The mature recognize God’s wisdom, but the rulers of this age do not. Are the rulers of this age men or demonic powers?

i. This debate goes all the way back to the time of Origen and Chrysostom. On the surface, it seems clear that the rulers of this age must refer to human rulers, because only they didn’t know what they were doing when they incited the crucifixion of Jesus. “Paul habitually ascribes power to the demonic forces, but not ignorance.” (Morris)

ii. However, one could say that demonic powers were ignorant of what would result from the crucifixion of Jesus – the disarming and defeat of demonic powers (Colossians 2:15) – and had they known they were sealing their own doom by inciting the crucifixion, they would not have done it.

iii. No matter who exactly the rulers of this age are, their defeat is certain: who are coming to nothing. Their day is over and the day of Jesus Christ is here.

d. Which none of the rulers of this age knew: Why did the rulers of this age fail to recognize God’s wisdom? Because it came in a mystery; a “sacred secret” that could only be known by revelation. It is the hidden wisdom that is now revealed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Paul preaches.

e. Lord of glory: Some scholars consider the Lord of glory the loftiest title Paul ever gave to Jesus. It is certain proof that Paul regarded Jesus as God, the Second Person of the Trinity. It is inconceivable that Paul would give this title to any lesser being.

2. (9-11) God’s wisdom is known only by the Holy Spirit.

But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.


a. As it is written: Properly speaking, this is not a strict quotation from the Scriptures. Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah 64:4 to remind us that God’s wisdom and plan is past our finding out on our own.

i. “As it is written is not, in this case, the form of quotation, but is rather equivalent to saying, ‘To use the language of Scripture.’” (Hodge)

b. Eye has not seen: Most people wrongly take the things which God has prepared for those who love Him to mean the things which are waiting for us in heaven. While it is true that we cannot comprehend the greatness of heaven, that isn’t what Paul means here, because 1 Corinthians 2:10 tells us God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. This glorious thing has been revealed by the gospel.

i. “These words have been applied to the state of glory in a future world; but certainly they belong to the present state, and express merely the wondrous light, life, and liberty which the Gospel communicates to them that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in that way which the Gospel itself requires.” (Clarke)

ii. Paul is communicating much the same message as Ephesians 3:1-7, where he writes about the mystery of the church, and how the church in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets. (Ephesians 3:5)

iii. Before the life and ministry of Jesus, God’s people had a vague understanding of the glory of His work and what it would do for His people. But they really did not and could not fully understand it ahead of time.

c. Through His Spirit reminds us that only the Holy Spirit can tell us about God and His wisdom. This knowledge is unattainable by human wisdom or investigation.

i. No one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God: Paul argues from the Greek philosophic premise that like is known only by like. You can guess what your dog is thinking, but you really can’t know unless he was to tell you. Even so, we could guess what God is thinking, and about His wisdom, but we would never know unless He told us.

e. Yes, the deep things of God: In their love of human wisdom, the Corinthians proudly thought Paul was just dealing in “just basics” like the gospel. Paul insists that his message gets to the heart of the deep things of God.

3. (12-13) How we can receive this wisdom.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

a. That we might know: This wisdom comes by the Spirit who is from God, not from the spirit of this world. Since every believer has received… the Spirit who is from God, every believer has the access to this spiritual wisdom.

i. This does not mean every believer has equal spiritual wisdom. And it does not mean we will understand all spiritual mysteries. It does mean every believer can understand the basics of the Christian message, which is unattainable (and undesirable) by human wisdom.


b. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual: Christians combine spiritual things with spiritual words; they use words and concepts taught only by the Holy Spirit.

i. Or, Paul may be speaking of the way only a spiritual man can receive spiritual things. “The passage therefore should be thus translated: Explaining spiritual things to spiritual persons.” (Clarke)

4. (14-16) The natural man and the spiritual man.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

a. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: The ancient Greek word for natural man is “psuchikos.” It describes the materialist, who lives as if there were nothing beyond this physical life. This is the kind of life common to all animals.

i. The natural man is where we all start life, the life inherited from Adam. The natural man is unregenerate man, unsaved man.

ii. We have to deal with the material world, so there is nothing inherently sinful in “natural” life. God is not displeased when you have to eat and sleep and work. But life on this level is without spiritual insight: the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

iii. Spiritual things seem foolishness to the natural man. Why waste time on “spiritual” things when you could be making money or having fun?

b. Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: The natural man doesn’t want the things of God because he regards them as foolishness. What is more, he can’t understand the things of God (even if he wanted to) because they are spiritually discerned. It would be wrong to expect the natural man to see and value spiritual things, just as it would be wrong to expect a corpse to see the material world.

i. The natural man is unsaved. Too many Christians still think like natural men, refusing to spiritually discern things. When our only concern is for “what works” or the “bottom line,” we are not spiritually discerning, and we are thinking like the natural man, even though we might be saved.

c. He who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one: Paul is not saying that every Christian is above every criticism (after all, much of this letter is criticism). The point is clear: no natural man is equipped to judge a spiritual man.

d. Who has known the mind of the LORD: Isaiah 40:13 refers to the mind of Yahweh (translated here as LORD); but Paul has no trouble inserting mind of Christ for mind of the LORD, because Jesus is Yahweh!

Your little paragraph of what 1 Cor 2 means just does not cut it. It is time for you and others stop misrepresenting scripture the way you do.
 
G

guest1

Guest
c. Which none of the rulers of this age knew: The mature recognize God’s wisdom, but the rulers of this age do not. Are the rulers of this age men or demonic powers?

i. This debate goes all the way back to the time of Origen and Chrysostom. On the surface, it seems clear that the rulers of this age must refer to human rulers, because only they didn’t know what they were doing when they incited the crucifixion of Jesus. “Paul habitually ascribes power to the demonic forces, but not ignorance.” (Morris)

ii. However, one could say that demonic powers were ignorant of what would result from the crucifixion of Jesus – the disarming and defeat of demonic powers (Colossians 2:15) – and had they known they were sealing their own doom by inciting the crucifixion, they would not have done it.

iii. No matter who exactly the rulers of this age are, their defeat is certain: who are coming to nothing. Their day is over and the day of Jesus Christ is here.

d. Which none of the rulers of this age knew: Why did the rulers of this age fail to recognize God’s wisdom? Because it came in a mystery; a “sacred secret” that could only be known by revelation. It is the hidden wisdom that is now revealed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Paul preaches.

e. Lord of glory: Some scholars consider the Lord of glory the loftiest title Paul ever gave to Jesus. It is certain proof that Paul regarded Jesus as God, the Second Person of the Trinity. It is inconceivable that Paul would give this title to any lesser being.

2. (9-11) God’s wisdom is known only by the Holy Spirit.

But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.


a. As it is written: Properly speaking, this is not a strict quotation from the Scriptures. Paul is paraphrasing Isaiah 64:4 to remind us that God’s wisdom and plan is past our finding out on our own.

i. “As it is written is not, in this case, the form of quotation, but is rather equivalent to saying, ‘To use the language of Scripture.’” (Hodge)

b. Eye has not seen: Most people wrongly take the things which God has prepared for those who love Him to mean the things which are waiting for us in heaven. While it is true that we cannot comprehend the greatness of heaven, that isn’t what Paul means here, because 1 Corinthians 2:10 tells us God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. This glorious thing has been revealed by the gospel.

i. “These words have been applied to the state of glory in a future world; but certainly they belong to the present state, and express merely the wondrous light, life, and liberty which the Gospel communicates to them that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in that way which the Gospel itself requires.” (Clarke)

ii. Paul is communicating much the same message as Ephesians 3:1-7, where he writes about the mystery of the church, and how the church in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets. (Ephesians 3:5)

iii. Before the life and ministry of Jesus, God’s people had a vague understanding of the glory of His work and what it would do for His people. But they really did not and could not fully understand it ahead of time.

c. Through His Spirit reminds us that only the Holy Spirit can tell us about God and His wisdom. This knowledge is unattainable by human wisdom or investigation.

i. No one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God: Paul argues from the Greek philosophic premise that like is known only by like. You can guess what your dog is thinking, but you really can’t know unless he was to tell you. Even so, we could guess what God is thinking, and about His wisdom, but we would never know unless He told us.

e. Yes, the deep things of God: In their love of human wisdom, the Corinthians proudly thought Paul was just dealing in “just basics” like the gospel. Paul insists that his message gets to the heart of the deep things of God.

3. (12-13) How we can receive this wisdom.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

a. That we might know: This wisdom comes by the Spirit who is from God, not from the spirit of this world. Since every believer has received… the Spirit who is from God, every believer has the access to this spiritual wisdom.

i. This does not mean every believer has equal spiritual wisdom. And it does not mean we will understand all spiritual mysteries. It does mean every believer can understand the basics of the Christian message, which is unattainable (and undesirable) by human wisdom.


b. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual: Christians combine spiritual things with spiritual words; they use words and concepts taught only by the Holy Spirit.

i. Or, Paul may be speaking of the way only a spiritual man can receive spiritual things. “The passage therefore should be thus translated: Explaining spiritual things to spiritual persons.” (Clarke)

4. (14-16) The natural man and the spiritual man.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

a. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: The ancient Greek word for natural man is “psuchikos.” It describes the materialist, who lives as if there were nothing beyond this physical life. This is the kind of life common to all animals.

i. The natural man is where we all start life, the life inherited from Adam. The natural man is unregenerate man, unsaved man.

ii. We have to deal with the material world, so there is nothing inherently sinful in “natural” life. God is not displeased when you have to eat and sleep and work. But life on this level is without spiritual insight: the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

iii. Spiritual things seem foolishness to the natural man. Why waste time on “spiritual” things when you could be making money or having fun?

b. Does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: The natural man doesn’t want the things of God because he regards them as foolishness. What is more, he can’t understand the things of God (even if he wanted to) because they are spiritually discerned. It would be wrong to expect the natural man to see and value spiritual things, just as it would be wrong to expect a corpse to see the material world.

i. The natural man is unsaved. Too many Christians still think like natural men, refusing to spiritually discern things. When our only concern is for “what works” or the “bottom line,” we are not spiritually discerning, and we are thinking like the natural man, even though we might be saved.

c. He who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one: Paul is not saying that every Christian is above every criticism (after all, much of this letter is criticism). The point is clear: no natural man is equipped to judge a spiritual man.

d. Who has known the mind of the LORD: Isaiah 40:13 refers to the mind of Yahweh (translated here as LORD); but Paul has no trouble inserting mind of Christ for mind of the LORD, because Jesus is Yahweh!

Your little paragraph of what 1 Cor 2 means just does not cut it. It is time for you and others stop misrepresenting scripture the way you do.
great response !
 
G

guest1

Guest
Brother, it isn't good to consider yourself part of unwilling few that required a special impartation of knowledge that God supposedly "refuses" to willing share with everyone.

God is willing. It is man that plays the fool. Not God.
Except the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit for they are foolishness to him as per 1 Cor 2.
 
G

guest1

Guest
The Gospel message is Spiritual. The Gospel is a "thing of God". You've misapplied 1 Cor 2. You've ripped it from its context and applied contrary to the Scriptures.

Is the Gospel message Spiritual? You know it is.....

Therein is the righteousness of God revealed......
of course the gospel is spiritual hence the natural man thinks its foolishness since he does not possess Gods spirit and he is spiritually dead in sin as per Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Please answer this scenario. .....the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates a spiritually dead child of man........is that now regenerate individual immediately/simultaneously a Christian?
Two words here that gets worn out by members of this forum . Sovereignly and regeneration. The former is never used by God and the latter is used twice, once in context to the restoration of the pristine creation and establishment of divine government and once in the context of restoring fallen man to the image of God.

Christians are born and exist in a relatively small window of time as it relates to the family of God and the fashioning of a bride for the last Adam, who is Jesus Christ, the son of God. It begins in Acts 2 with the giving of the Holy Spirit and ends with the translation of the church, the body of Christ, which every Christian is a member of. There are ages after this one when God will deal with men in different ways as he did in ages past.

So, within that context the answer to your question is "yes." But in that context only.
 
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