Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Ok.... but can one be a child of God and NOT be a Christian? I say absolutely. There are many children of God who fail to become Christians and will suffer for their failure.
Ok.... but can one be a child of God and NOT be a Christian? I say absolutely. There are many children of God who fail to become Christians and will suffer for their failure.
Jesus Christ was totally led of the Spirit of God while he was on the earth in the same way that all born again saints of God will be in the eternal state. The Spirit of God led Jesus Christ in everything he did or said because Jesus Christ willed it so. So, the answer to the second question is "no." Here is what the scriptures says about him while he was in the weak flesh.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Here is what Jesus Christ said about himself.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Stop and consider these words above. Jesus Christ spoke the words that God gave him to speak. It says this in V 49. This is the reason he says what he does in V 44. How can this be? There is only one way this can be true isf I have given you the right answer to question #2. It is because God has given him the Holy Spirit without measure (Jn 3:34) and he indwells him in his fullness. While Jesus Christ has limited himself in character to live as a man, so as to accomplish redemption for the world, the Spirit that lives in him is also in the Father, and according to 1 Cor 2, searches the mind of the Father. In his fullness and dwelling in Jesus Christ, being omnipresent and not constrained by time and space, Jesus can know the mind of God immediately through and by the Spirit. Not only so, the Spirit empowers our Lord to accomplish the will of God in his body. The one and only time that Jesus acted alone was the time on the cross when God the Father and God the Spirit forsook him , and he died. That is the meaning of death. Separation. It was the meaning of his eventual physical death when his human soul and his human body were separated and his soul went to paradise where the thief who was crucified with him and had repented had already gone, and his body was placed in a tomb.
How is the person of Jesus different than born again sinners today. The answer is simple. While Jesus Christ was the son of God at his conception through the virgin, none of us sinners can say that. Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father. However, those who have believed the gospel of Christ by putting their trust in him and the Father also have received the Spirit as the gift of God to indwell our mortal bodies. But, there is a difference between us and Jesus Christ when he lived on the earth. While he was given the Spirit without measure, we are given the "earnest" of the Spirit, a down payment, as it were, on the finished transaction of our redemption. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit only because in most cases we are not. When Christians endeavor to do things for God, such as my writing this explanation of the Christian faith, we should be led of the Spirit and filled with the Spirit, so that which is done will glorify God. Jesus said he did always those things that please the father.
The Spirit of God can be "quenched" in us.
The Spirit of God can be "grieved" by us.
Neither of these things were ever true of Jesus Christ.
I can add much scripture, in context, to strengthen my points above but I will let this be my post for now and see if you are able to think outside the Calvinist box. It is important that you do.
2 Cor 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (he is speaking of the redemption of the body, it's glorification), unto the praise of his glory.
Please take time to read this and ponder it.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
T
TomFL
Guest
Absolutely not
To be a child (teknon) you must be born again
John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
So you think it an impossibiliy for a child of God to be disbelieving rebellious or just down right foolish?
Gee.....seems like the Bible is full of examples of them.
T
TomFL
Guest
Do not change the subject
Possession of the Holy Spirit is the issue
To be a true child (teknon) under the new covenant and not have the Holy Spirit is impossible
Romans 8:9 (KJV)
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
I am not changing the subject.
"True" child? What is the difference between a "true" child of God and a child of God? Except what I am trying to point out to you.
I agree with the verses of scripture you quoted. But what you fail to realize is that not all children of God have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The promised indwelling is what makes the child of God .......a Christian.
Question.....when one is born from above (the act of spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit) is the individual automatically a Chrstian? No.
T
TomFL
Guest
Some use the term child because of creation
A true child (teknon - root to beget)is born of God
If one has the spirit he is a child in this sense
If one does not have the spirit he is not
You err
one born from above is a Christian
further it is indwelling of the Spirit which regenerates
John 7:38-39 (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Let's see if we can clear up a few points. You say, "If one has the spirit he is a child...." . I noticed you used a small "s". Was this intentional? Or are you referring to the Holy Spirit? Man's spirit? Or the Holy Spirit that is promised to the children of God.?
Also, I always make a distinction between "child" of God verses "child" of man. The distinction being whether one is regenerate or unregenerate. So, when I write "child of God" I am always referring to one who has been born from above by the Holy Spirit.
So on these two points, I point out you quoted Eze. 37:14. But I quote, Eze. 36:26,27 (condensed) "I will put a new spirit (small s) within you..........AND I will put My Spirit within you."
Can you see the distinction between spirit and Spirit? The sovereign act of regeneration by the Holy Spirit puts a new spirit (small s) in the new born babe of God. This is what makes one a child of God......quickening.......spiritual regeneration......an new spirit within. But.....but that new spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit.
This is a critical point. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Conversion and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit is what makes the child of God a.......Christian.
The child of God because he now has eyes and ears to see and hear the divine truths can "see" the kingdom of God. But seeing is not entering. Jesus made this distinction with Nicodemus.
So, when one is regenerated is he automatically indwelled with the Holy Spirit? IF you say , yes, where does repentance and conversion come into the equation?
I have a word of the biblical term REGENERATION.
It is not a showcase word in the scriptures. Almost everything that is said about regeneration on this forum is made up and untrue. There is no place one can go in scripture and find where God has defined this word and attached the teaching to it that comes out in these threads. those who knows their bible will look first for the meaning that God gives to the word because God always defines his terms, often times in the very verse he uses them. Such is the case with the word regeneration. I will show this in a minute.
First, I will say that God only uses the word regeneration two times in the scriptures, whether you are reading a Greek manuscript or the KJV translation. Of those two times he uses it only once in his dealing with his plan of redemption of sinners. So, those people who are saying this about regeneration and others who are saying that about regeneration are generally telling lies and are not teaching from the bible.
Everything a person can say with any authority about regeneration must come from the place where God uses the term. It would help greatly if the teacher knew the ways of God because these ways are consistent from Genesis to Revelation. The ways of God is to make a statement in a text and then define the language in the second phrase. This he does with the word regeneration in Titus 3. Let me illustrate in this quote.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, (this is the first clause)
and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (this is what the first clause means)
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
So what does he mean by saving us by the washing of regeneration?
He explains himself. - It is the renewing of the Holy Ghost!
The capsule picture of salvation is in these few verses.
One is saved when he receives the Holy Ghost into his mortal body because the Holy Ghost is life. When a man gets life it is a birth, a beginning of something new and different. He becomes a son of God , and if you do not believe that just look at the next couple verses.
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is said over and over in different ways in scripture but God wants us to think in the terms of begotten of God, born again, as children of God, son of God, because these are the terms he uses to describe salvation and he does not use the term regeneration except in this limited application. This is true with the word "conversion." Conversion means the same thing but it has limited use in scriptures and in our preaching. People know what we mean when we do use the word.
There are confused teachers on this forum who are assigning meanings to this word that cannot be found in the scriptures.
It is not a showcase word in the scriptures. Almost everything that is said about regeneration on this forum is made up and untrue. There is no place one can go in scripture and find where God has defined this word and attached the teaching to it that comes out in these threads. those who knows their bible will look first for the meaning that God gives to the word because God always defines his terms, often times in the very verse he uses them. Such is the case with the word regeneration. I will show this in a minute.
First, I will say that God only uses the word regeneration two times in the scriptures, whether you are reading a Greek manuscript or the KJV translation. Of those two times he uses it only once in his dealing with his plan of redemption of sinners. So, those people who are saying this about regeneration and others who are saying that about regeneration are generally telling lies and are not teaching from the bible.
Everything a person can say with any authority about regeneration must come from the place where God uses the term. It would help greatly if the teacher knew the ways of God because these ways are consistent from Genesis to Revelation. The ways of God is to make a statement in a text and then define the language in the second phrase. This he does with the word regeneration in Titus 3. Let me illustrate in this quote.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, (this is the first clause)
and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (this is what the first clause means)
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
So what does he mean by saving us by the washing of regeneration?
He explains himself. - It is the renewing of the Holy Ghost!
The capsule picture of salvation is in these few verses.
One is saved when he receives the Holy Ghost into his mortal body because the Holy Ghost is life. When a man gets life it is a birth, a beginning of something new and different. He becomes a son of God , and if you do not believe that just look at the next couple verses.
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is said over and over in different ways in scripture but God wants us to think in the terms of begotten of God, born again, as children of God, son of God, because these are the terms he uses to describe salvation and he does not use the term regeneration except in this limited application. This is true with the word "conversion." Conversion means the same thing but it has limited use in scriptures and in our preaching. People know what we mean when we do use the word.
There are confused teachers on this forum who are assigning meanings to this word that cannot be found in the scriptures.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
You are a bit amiss in your definition. Perhaps the "confused teachers" you speak of is yourself?
You just claimed "the washing of regeneration IS the renewing of the Holy Spirit." The Bible makes no such claim. The text above you quoted makes the very point. In the text is the major point "He saved us". How? One, by the "washing of regeneration" and two, the "renewing of the Holy Spirit."
Notice the little "and" in the text joining the two? The joining of regeneration with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what saves the child of God.
Fact: all God's children are regenerated to life by the Holy Spirit. That is what makes an unregenerate child of man into a regenerate child of God.
But the renewing of the Holy Spirit is a promise......a conditional promise of the Father to His children. Furthermore, this promise applies to God's children since the ascension of Jesus. Now tell me. Prior to Jesus' coming, in the OT, were the children of God regenerate? Were Moses, David, the prophets, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all the obedient children that worshipped God prior to Pentecost, were they regenerate? Of course they were. God's children throughout time worshipped and communed with their Heavenly Father because they were regenerate (spiritually alive). The difference now , for us the children of God, since the ascension of Jesus, is that the conditional promise of the Holy Spirit is available to His children......available to actually indwell and abide within His children.
And we actually have another scriptural text that further clarifies the two separate events of Titus' "washing and renewing". In Eze. 36:26,27 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and PUT a new spirit (small s) within you.................AND (got that little and?) I will put My Spirit within you......"
Jesus also makes the two events distinctive.......John 3: 3 and 5 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot SEE the kingdom of God...............truly, truly I say unto you, unless one is born of water AND the Spirit , he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God."
Again, you see two different events in the lives of God's children.....one , regeneration of spiritual life........two, conversion and the renewing of the promised Holy Spirit.
And the reason this understanding is so critical is that ALL God's children , obviously are regenerate.....but not all God's children are obedient and thus receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. And........and if the child of God fails to receive the conditional promise of the Holy Spirit because they live disobedient, rebellious , covetous, unforgiving, or just plain foolish lives........they will miss the first resurrection, miss the marriage supper, miss ruling and reigning with Jesus in the age to come, the Sabbath Rest of God. Just so you know.......and realize your error. And you cannot prove anything I have just written contradicts the teachings of Jesus or the word of God. But feel free to try. But better effort would be to confirm what I wrote is true and live accordingly. For those who read this it may just make a difference in where one spends their time in the age to come........with Jesus or in prison.
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I am here to deal with the false teaching of Calvinism and not your strange doctrines. As far as I can tell yours is from your own mind and you are the only person on earth who has ever come up with this strangeness.
I will talk some more with you if you can find a single instance in the OT scriptures, which covers the period from the beginning of creation to the cross of Jesus Christ, where a man is called the son of God, with these two exceptions. Adam (Lk 3:38), before his fall and Jesus Christ, both of whom are called the son of God.
I am into believing the words of the scriptures and not making stuff up like you are doing.
The only individual entities that are called the sons of God are those who are specially created by God. This includes angels in Job 1 and Adam and Jesus and every individual Christian who receives the Holy Ghost in his body.
Just so you know the fashioning of Jesus concerns his humanity, his body and soul.
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Concerning the humanity of Jesus Christ, the prophet said this.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
All new testament Christians, those who are redeemed in this age of grace, are born again of the Spirit and are called a new creation of God This is true of both individually and collectively.
Individually - 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
He is not something that is old and reworked. He is new..
Collectively - Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
I am pretty much done dealing with you now unless you can produce evidence for your aberrant doctrines with the use of the words we are given in the scriptures. I am not interested in your philosophy. Show your doctrines in words.
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
Hit the wrong button
T
TomFL
Guest
Your Problem remains
John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
One becomes a child of God by regeneration being born again begotten
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
You just totally blew off my post as if I did not even write one. Would you please not ignore what I wrote and address my previous post?
T
TomFL
Guest
You are self refuted
"This is a critical point. Regeneration makes one a child of God. Conversion and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit is what makes the child of God a.......Christian."
One cannot be regenerated with the indwelling of the spirit
Ezekiel 37:14 (KJV)
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
so one cannot be a child of of God without being indwelt by the spirit
you were were not ignored it was shown becoming a child of God is a function of regeneration
John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
One becomes a child of God by regeneration being born again begotten
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
So..... are all men immortal souls?
Really? You mean like the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16?
So then, it has nothing to do with agreeing with Calvinism.
NO. You are still flesh of Adam's flesh.
What Greek term means "never ending, without end, endless, everlasting etc"??
Do tell.
At Ephesians 1:5, Paul is talking about this:
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Ephesians 1:11 literally says we were made heirs. Yes, believers have been made heirs.
Your Bible never says God predestined anyone to become a Christian. Ephesians 1:4 refers to what God chose Christians TO BE - holy and blameless before him.
God foreknew his people, Israelites. That is what Paul is talking about. These were predestined by God to be released from the Law and conformed to the image of His son.
This is completely unBiblical.
And yes we already no you will provide an empty response.