Apologetic follies

Whateverman

Well-known member
The lengths to which some Christian fundamentalists will go to not lose an argument is amusing...

In a recent thread, CrowCross held up the Gospel of Barnabus as an example of an extra-biblical reference to Jesus. All those nasty atheists demanding evidence of Jesus' existence from outside of the bible, and on the face of it, this book/gospel fits the bill.

Of course, the Gospel of Barnabus never made it into the bible, for several reasons - one of which stands out like a sore thumb:

In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity

Here in the Atheism sub-forum, we have a Christian arguing that a book which conforms to some extent to the Islamic view of Jesus, is evidence of Jesus' existence...
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The lengths to which some Christian fundamentalists will go to not lose an argument is amusing...

In a recent thread, CrowCross held up the Gospel of Barnabus as an example of an extra-biblical reference to Jesus. All those nasty atheists demanding evidence of Jesus' existence from outside of the bible, and on the face of it, this book/gospel fits the bill.

Of course, the Gospel of Barnabus never made it into the bible, for several reasons - one of which stands out like a sore thumb:

In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity

Here in the Atheism sub-forum, we have a Christian arguing that a book which conforms to some extent to the Islamic view of Jesus, is evidence of Jesus' existence...
Hmm.....
I won't hazard a guess as to why he'd use a document which espouses a non-biblical view, except to say--- it's an extra-biblical source saying--- There actually was a real guy named Jesus, who did.............
As the Islamic view of Jesus is that he's not YHVH's Son, nor did he die, so he couldn't have actually been resurrected, I'd summarily reject it as a valid document.

I think the problem I'd have is that I already take Jesus seriously, so why would I want to use non-biblical ideas to point to him? If I did do so, why not use all the non-biblical references--- Gospel of Mary, Thomas, Peter, etc...... They all talk about A Jesus, even though none of them describe THE Jesus we believe in, and is described in the biblical record.
The point being--- we who follow Jesus want you to follow the real Jesus, as he's described in the bible.

So, you're going to have to take this one up with CC.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
The Quran mentions Jesus. So does Robert Heinlein's book A Stranger In A Strange Land.

Look at that, we've got extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence all over the place!

Silly atheists...
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Maybe it's time to ask the one to whom this thread is dedicated.

Hey @CrowCross - do you consider the Quran to hold extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence?

Why or why not...
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Maybe it's time to ask the one to whom this thread is dedicated.

Hey @CrowCross - do you consider the Quran to hold extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence?

Why or why not...
The Jesus in the Quran is a false Jesus...trying to depict the real Jesus.

Edit...Just for the record, I posted this prior to reading SteveB's post.
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity
I was curious....do you have an example?

I haven't looked but I believe Barnies Gospel was written long befor the Quran.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
As the Islamic view of Jesus is that he's not YHVH's Son, nor did he die, so he couldn't have actually been resurrected, I'd summarily reject it as a valid document.
You define 'valid' as something that you agree with. This may be the single worst way to figure out what is true that I have read. Instead of combatting confirmation bias you are wearing it like a crown.

We should always look for ideas, facts, and opinions that disagree with our beliefs. It is a way to find truth, to grow, and to test your own beliefs.

If you just listen to what you like and ignore the rest you are never going to find truth.

Or get a job in a scientific field and tell them you only accept the evidence that supports your hypothesis and reject any evidence that questions your hypothesis. See how that first day goes :)
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
The Jesus in the Quran is a false Jesus...trying to depict the real Jesus.

Edit...Just for the record, I posted this prior to reading SteveB's post.
I know you know Jesus exists. I'm referring to the kind of evidence people are looking for when they ask for something from outside the bible which mentions Him as a real/existing person.

Would it be accurate to say you DO NOT think Jesus' mention in the Quran constitutes evidence for his existence?
 

Woody50

Well-known member
I know you know Jesus exists. I'm referring to the kind of evidence people are looking for when they ask for something from outside the bible which mentions Him as a real/existing person.

Would it be accurate to say you DO NOT think Jesus' mention in the Quran constitutes evidence for his existence?
I'd say yes, because we have a First Principle. All you do is guesswork.
 

Woody50

Well-known member
The lengths to which some Christian fundamentalists will go to not lose an argument is amusing...
Are you exempt from this axiom of yours? Is it only "fundies" who do this, or did you just insert "Christian fundamentalists" because you cannot control your emotions and just wanna lump them in with what you do?
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I'd say yes, because we have a First Principle. All you do is guesswork.
I'll bite. What is a First Principle and how does that prove The Bible is right and the Koran is wrong? I am guessing you just choose to believe the Bible and reject the Koran, right? No reason, no evidence, no system of proving which is true? Or is there actual evidence and a process.
 

Woody50

Well-known member
I'll bite. What is a First Principle
I can link you, but it's Philosophy 101. Let me know if you want more resources.
and how does that prove The Bible is right and the Koran is wrong?
It doesn't. Deductive reasoning is the only valid logic. Guesswork (inductive reasoning) is not. That's what you do.
I am guessing you just choose to believe the Bible and reject the Koran, right?
Guess away. It's what you do.
No reason, no evidence, no system of proving which is true? Or is there actual evidence and a process.
Sure there is, but it only works if you're logical...which you are not.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
I know you know Jesus exists. I'm referring to the kind of evidence people are looking for when they ask for something from outside the bible which mentions Him as a real/existing person.

Would it be accurate to say you DO NOT think Jesus' mention in the Quran constitutes evidence for his existence?
There is NOTHING that exists...well, actually there is but the blinded doesn't have the ability to see it and will only fight against it. You are an example Whateverman.

As for the evidence in the Quran...it mentions Jesus. If the Jesus mentioned in the Quaran is supposed to be the Jesus born in Bethlehem...then there is evidence in the Quran.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
I'll bite. What is a First Principle and how does that prove The Bible is right and the Koran is wrong? I am guessing you just choose to believe the Bible and reject the Koran, right? No reason, no evidence, no system of proving which is true? Or is there actual evidence and a process.
ISAIAH 53.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
I know you know Jesus exists. I'm referring to the kind of evidence people are looking for when they ask for something from outside the bible which mentions Him as a real/existing person.

Would it be accurate to say you DO NOT think Jesus' mention in the Quran constitutes evidence for his existence?
There is NOTHING that exists
Ok, thanks. You've just stated you have no extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence. I'm not sure that was your intent, but...

...well, actually there is but the blinded doesn't have the ability to see it and will only fight against it.
So only you can see the evidence?
 

Woody50

Well-known member
Ok, thanks. You've just stated you have no extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' existence. I'm not sure that was your intent, but...


So only you can see the evidence?
Yeah. He's learning.

Care to respond to me, little dub?

Just joshing you. I know you won't.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You define 'valid' as something that you agree with. This may be the single worst way to figure out what is true that I have read. Instead of combatting confirmation bias you are wearing it like a crown.
I can read the Quran, and then in the attempt to do what the Quran says, to determine if it speaks truth or not, it breaks down.
the only way I can know if it speaks truth or not is to murder others, and get myself killed in the process. I.e., I won't know the truth of Islam until after I've died.

YHVH doesn't operate like that.
He actually gives us means to know, in this life.


We should always look for ideas, facts, and opinions that disagree with our beliefs. It is a way to find truth, to grow, and to test your own beliefs.
Yet all I ever read from you is that you only know ideas, facts and opinions which say you're right, and nobody who disagrees with you can be right, not matter what..... when it comes to Jesus.
So, it seems to me that it's you who is failing to follow your own advice.


If you just listen to what you like and ignore the rest you are never going to find truth.
Oh, you mean like you've been doing for years?

Steve--- Hey LA, do what Jesus said. It's here is where you can know Truth.
LA- nah! You have to prove it to me with words.
Steve-- Hey, LA. It's not something that's demonstrated by words of others. You have to actually do what Jesus said to know the Truth.
LA-- I don't believe that to be true, therefore you are not able to prove to be with words what I don't actually want to know in fact. I only believe what words say that I agree with.

At what point do you listen to what words you like, and ignore the rest, to realize that you're running yourself in circles?

Or get a job in a scientific field and tell them you only accept the evidence that supports your hypothesis and reject any evidence that questions your hypothesis. See how that first day goes :)
Oh, you mean like the one I've been doing for over a decade+ now?
Ok..... I'll make sure to not follow your obviously lacking in awareness instructions.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I can link you, but it's Philosophy 101. Let me know if you want more resources.
Ah - no thanks. Philosophy bores me. And it is the wrong discipline to figure out if God is real or not. To determine if something exists in reality is a question for science, not philosophy.

We might as well use psychology to determine if Jesus rose from the dead.
Sure there is, but it only works if you're logical...which you are not.
Ad Hominum.
 
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