Apologetic follies

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Correct. Science uses observation and witnesses say Jesus who had been crucified.
Can I speak to the witnesses? Can I read their documented testimony? Or do you just have the claim from one man in 300 CE that witnesses saw stuff?

You do not have the evidence you claim to have. Let's see the witnesses and their testimony from the 1st Century - or admit that you have no such evidence.

This is folly.
God parted the Red Sea. Not Moses.
How can you prove that? Do you have any evidence? Or is this another story in an ancient book that you cannot prove?
If you take a rod and toss it on the ground and it becomes a serpent, we may believe you, or not.
If you can do this in a lab environment in 2021 then you will have your empirical evidence. I look forward to the experiment - when and where?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Steve, the problem with having a conversation with you is your insistence that yours is the correct way to read the Bible, and anyone who doesn't read it the same way as you is misreading it or doesn't get what the passage really means.
In other words, you lack the knowledge to know what you're talking about and instead of considering that, you complain that you believe I'm a know it all, in order to justify your ongoing ignorance.
You see, the "way I'm reading the bible" is that I read it through, cover to cover, and repeat that process, over, and over, and over........ and over again. I keep reading it. Sometimes I'll skip the new testament, because I want to get a better idea of what's being said in the old. Other times, I've skipped the psalms, proverbs, eccl, and song of solomon, after I finished Genesis through Job, and start in Isaiah through to Malachi, and then go back tro Genesis. Starting last year, I decided to read Revelation 6 times in a row, following the encouragement of a guy I'd read about. I did that, and now I'm on my 6th time of Genesis. Next I'll start on Exodus, and work through t he bible again. I may change it up, once I get to a certain point, but the idea was to read it several times, so as to get a clear picture. Which is why I have been reading it cover to cover. It allows me time to consider my thoughts on it, and since I have a bible app on my phone that I read, and it allows me to take notes, I document my thoughts on the verses I choose.



I get that you've spent 30 years in a Calvary Chapel, and you think you really know the Bible, which is very common in a Calvary Chapel, but what I've found is the people in a Calvary Chapel really know the Calvary Chapel position on an issue. It is a possibility you are wrong on your position, and a lot of other Christians do think you’re wrong on a number of your positions.
I know the bible better than some, and not better than others.
What's ironic is that elders in my church are the ones who've been telling me for over a decade now that I know the bible better than they do. And in all honesty--- I find that disconcerting that the board of directors for my local church don't know the bible as well as I do, and have taken pains to make me aware of this.

The only reason I know the bible as well as I do is because I read it. Daily. Sometimes often through my day, because I'm looking for passages to post to my posts here, or on facebook, to help emphasize a point that needs to be made.

And the only reason I read it daily is because Chuck Smith, at CCCM said that we need to read it daily, and make a habit out of it. And then he quoted this passage....

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

He then quoted this passage.

Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; But happy is he who keeps the law.


He then made the point that it's human nature to read and then forget. And as such, we need to be reminded daily, so we don't forget. I further learned this in a "how to succeed in college class" I took in my first semester in college. The professor taught us methods on how to remind ourselves of the materials we were being taught on a daily basis, so when the exams/quizzes/tests would come, we'd be ready for them.

So, my way is the only way to read the bible? No. It's the best way that I've learned.... initially because I failed to do so after having been instructed on how to do it better, and then because after learning the lessons of failure, I decided to take the time to start reading, a little bit each morning, and continued reading, a little bit each morning, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, and it's now been a very long time, and multiple times reading through the bible. So..... yeah, I have a fairly good grasp on the bible. Enough so that the elders in my church have made the comments to me numerous times.

And here's the thing that acted as a catalyst for me..... AT a certain point, I'd purchased a multi-station sprinkler timer for my yard, garden, etc.... It allowed me to water 8 times a day. I worked it out, and over the course of a couple of years, I learned that watering a little bit, several times a day, my lawn, trees, roses, berries, etc.... fared better than if I only watered once a day, a lot. My water bill also dropped. I used less water, more efficiently.
So.... having made this observation, I wondered if it'd work in my spiritual life too, because God said in psalm 1

1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.

When I read this, I realized--- there just might be something here that I should pay attention to, and put it into action in my life.....
Well..... as I learned with my garden, lawns, etc..... so I've been learning in my life in Christ.

Which begs the question---- what kind of garden would you like? Do you like a healthy, happy, satisfying life, or are you content with a desert existence?

Psalm 1 continues on, and the idea is picked up by Jeremiah in chapter 17 of his book----

4 The ungodly are not so, But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.​
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.​
6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.​

5 Thus says the LORD:​
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.​
6 For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, In a salt land which is not inhabited.​

I don't know about you..... but I've found that I prefer a well-watered garden, filled with ripe fruit trees, and bushes, constantly producing fruits in their seasons. It makes my life so much more enjoyable.
I further learned in the experience of taking care of my garden that my wife came to really enjoy fresh, off the vine, ripe blackberries. I'd grown up with being able to eat fresh blackberries. She had not. And because of that, she did not like them at all. When I'd get blackberries from the market, she'd poo-poo them, and tell me she didn't like black berries. But when I began growing them---- she tried on, reluctantly, and fell in love.
After that, every season following, she'd go out every morning, with a bowl in hand, and pick fresh black berries for her morning cereal.


You say it’s not about denomination but about following Jesus, but a denomination is just a collection of people who interpret the Bible in a similar way.
Yep. And what did Jesus say about bad doctrine?

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,

It's possible to get so caught up in ideas that you completely miss Jesus.
Take a look at what happened to the church in Ephesus, in Revelation 2--- their orthodoxy, their doctrine, their whole thing was spot on, and they'd grown cold in heart, and had left their first love. It was so important to Jesus that he told them--- unless you repent, I will remove your candlestick.
that's a spooky thing. A people whose entire practice was what we’d think were at the top of their game, and they were in a seriously bad way.

The way they interpret the Bible has everything to do with how they follow Jesus. As we’ve discussed in a previous post, how they interpret the Bible has do with their views on war, or what following Jesus looks like in regards to a Christian’s involvement with war. Maybe the Amish are right in their interpretation, and every other denomination with a different interpretation of what the Bible says on how to follow Jesus is incorrect.
Perhaps they are.... with one exception--- they've created an isolated society, which does not evangelize. Jesus told us to go out into the world, and teach the nations, making disciples/followers of Jesus.
There's a guy on another forum here trying to gather followers to move up to a forested area in British Columbia, up north. He wants to create his own version of the Amish society. Make a modern day commune.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I jumped from denomination to denomination because I was looking for one that I thought was most true to my understanding of what was actually in the Bible, and I found they all hone in on the passages that support what they already believe, and ignore or explain away the ones they find problematic. You just did it. The Calvinist argument for their view on irresistible grace is just as Biblically solid as the Arminian view, but both are using the same Bible and coming to two different conclusions. You’ll be tempted to argue why their view is incorrect, and toss around the passages that prove why, and they’ll be tempted to argue why your view is incorrect and toss around the passages that prove why, but if you both have the Spirit of Truth, which will guide you in all understanding, why can’t Christian’s agree on what that truth is? I’ve already listed a number of very import issues that Christians don’t agree on, and how can I believe they have the truth when they can’t even agree on what the truth is.

you thought.

most true

your understanding.



I think this was your mistake....

I had no idea what the bible said. I didn't want to be taught what I thought it should/would be. I simply wanted to know what it said, and that's what Chuck, and the other CC's have done.



CC practices what's known as the inductive bible study method.

Here's what I was taught, from pretty much my earliest days.


I still have my notes from then.

In reading the bible, I don't want what I think to define what the bible says. I want the bible to show me what it says, and then, as Jesus said--- let the Holy Spirit guide me into all truth. John 14:26, and 16:12-15.



This has been the core practice of every calvary chapel I've been to, since 1977.



So, while you may be using thoughts and ideas to make your statement that you don't actually mean, what you're saying is that you excluded yourself from learning, and expected to see something you did not in fact see, so you left, and kept leaving, until you just quit.





I’m sure you’ll just tell me I’m not understanding what was meant by that passage as well, which is your response for anyone who disagrees with you. I’m just letting you know, if you’re heart is to win people to Christ, your approach isn’t working, it just makes you come across like you care more about winning the argument than winning the person, but then again, maybe you are.

what passage are you referring to?

Doing a block quote, after clipping most of what I posted, I have no idea what you're referring to.



This reads to me that you don't actually want to converse about this issue, so you cut out the uneasy parts, and make generic statements that speak more to what you think I want to hear. So, this statement of yours--- it's all on you. I have not said you’re not understanding what was meant by that passage.

My approach is to speak the truth. It worked for Jesus. So, why wouldn’t it work for me? Ever read John 6, 8, 10? How about Matthew 23? He spoke the truth to everyone. Some respected him for it, and some wanted to kill him for it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
... you just defined your entire Christian faith right there.....
to you.... I"m absolutely certain that's what you need to tell yourself.....
I note that you clipped most of what I said, and focused only on the parts that fit your bias.

Which further helps to illustrate the proverbs.

Pro 15:7 NKJV - The lips of the wise disperse knowledge, But the heart of the fool [does] not [do] so.
Pro 18:2 NKJV - A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.

You guys do this so well.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
In other words, you lack the knowledge to know what you're talking about and instead of considering that, you complain that you believe I'm a know it all, in order to justify your ongoing ignorance.
We talked about this - people do not like it when you insult them. It has nothing to do with The Gospels. We just do not like being called ignorant.

Try to be nice and recognize that it is possible for people to disagree with you without them being drooling idiots. Intelligent, well informed people can have different views - no need to toss insults.

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." -- Ephesians 4:32
 

SteveB

Well-known member
We talked about this - people do not like it when you insult them. It has nothing to do with The Gospels. We just do not like being called ignorant.

Try to be nice and recognize that it is possible for people to disagree with you without them being drooling idiots. Intelligent, well informed people can have different views - no need to toss insults.

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." -- Ephesians 4:32

Since you're going to use the Bible to justify yourself, here's a couple that actually apply

Psa 141:5 WEB Let the righteous strike me, it is kindness; let him reprove me, it is like oil on the head; don’t let my head refuse it; Yet my prayer is always against evil deeds.​

What do you think kindness is?
How do you think kindness is to be expressed on a digital medium?


Eph 4:15 WEB but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him who is the head, Christ,​

How do you think truth is spoken on a written medium?

1Co 13:4-7 WEB 4 Love is patient and is kind. Love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud, 5 doesn’t behave itself inappropriately, doesn’t seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; 6 doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things.

Show me how you think these attributes are to be expressed in writing, on a medium that has no means of interacting face to face?


So, show me how I am to speak the truth, be kind, and not rejoice in your unrighteousness, to love you, as Jesus said to.


I've stated this numerous times before. And even posted a couple of ops about it.

stop insulting yourselves by ignoring what we are saying regarding Jesus. Stop insulting yourselves by saying that you don't want to consider doing something to actually know and learn the truth, and continue to believe that you are right.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
It's been fun watching the evolution of the discussion here. Without diving into the details, one thing remains clear:

The person this thread is dedicated to - is happy to use heresy as evidence that Jesus existed.

Apologetic follies indeed ;)
 

5wize

Well-known member
to you.... I"m absolutely certain that's what you need to tell yourself.....
I note that you clipped most of what I said, and focused only on the parts that fit your bias.

Which further helps to illustrate the proverbs.

Pro 15:7 NKJV - The lips of the wise disperse knowledge, But the heart of the fool [does] not [do] so.
Pro 18:2 NKJV - A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.

You guys do this so well.
Well I'm not the one that believes he knows something that he doesn't know. I'm the one showing that you don't know anything about a real God and you are the one proving it's true.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Well I'm not the one that believes he knows something that he doesn't know. I'm the one showing that you don't know anything about a real God and you are the one proving it's true.
🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That you actually believe that you know what I know is hilarious.

I'm curious.

Do you actually know what I know, or are you thinking that because you don't actually know what I know, I'm not allowed to have learned anything?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Yeah, two different descriptions of the same event...one with more details than the other.

Would you like to try another?
No. We do not have here one story that can be reconciled and made into a mega-narrative, the way conservative Christians have always tried to do. Instead, we have two stories that simply are at odds because both of them contain legendary elements.
  • In Matthew’s account, the priests buy the field; in Acts it is Judas himself who buys it.
  • In Matthew’s account, Judas hangs himself; in Acts he falls headlong, bursts open, and spills his intestines on the field.
  • In Matthew’s account, it is a clear suicide; in Acts there is no reference to a suicide.
  • In Matthew’s account, the place is called the Field of Blood because it was purchased with blood money. In Acts, it is called the Field of Blood because Judas spilled his blood on it.
 

5wize

Well-known member
🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That you actually believe that you know what I know is hilarious.

I'm curious.

Do you actually know what I know, or are you thinking that because you don't actually know what I know, I'm not allowed to have learned anything?
I know what you think you know, and I know you cannot possibly know it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I know what you think you know, and I know you cannot possibly know it.
Solely because you have chosen to not take the time to learn.

Pity.

YHVH says

Jer 24:7 WEB I will give them a heart to know me, that I am Yahweh. They will be my people, and I will be their God; for they will return to me with their whole heart.​

Then Jesus said

Joh 17:3 WEB This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

He also said,


Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Mat 19:26 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Mar 10:27 Jesus, looking at them, said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God.”

Luk 1:37 For nothing spoken by God is impossible.”


Luk 18:27 But he said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”

So, tell me again that what I've learned to actually know and experience is not possible.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Since you're going to use the Bible to justify yourself, here's a couple that actually apply
I was using The Bible to try and remind you what your own faith says about insulting people. You know. To not do it.

But if telling us that we are a bunch of ignorant, lazy, poo poo heads makes you happy then go for it brother! I have to admit I enjoy your posts. There is a purity to them that I find entertaining.

And I personally am not insulted in the slightest - so go nuts.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
You didn't address anything. All you're doing is attacking and insulting me.

Apparently that's all you can do. You certainly won't answer my questions. In fact, let's test that...

Is requiring belief more than merely requiring a choice? Yes or No?
Tested and confirmed.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Yeah, two different descriptions of the same event...one with more details than the other.

Would you like to try another?
When they found the tomb:

- was it open or sealed?
- was there an angel?
- was there anyone inside the tomb?

These are not details - they are contradicted in each Gospel - thus undermining an already shaky credibility.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Solely because you have chosen to not take the time to learn.

Pity.

YHVH says

Jer 24:7 WEB I will give them a heart to know me, that I am Yahweh. They will be my people, and I will be their God; for they will return to me with their whole heart.​

Then Jesus said

Joh 17:3 WEB This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

He also said,


Mat 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Mat 19:26 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Mar 10:27 Jesus, looking at them, said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God.”

Luk 1:37 For nothing spoken by God is impossible.”


Luk 18:27 But he said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”

So, tell me again that what I've learned to actually know and experience is not possible.
Why should we believe anything you posted came from a god?
 
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