Apologetics and Naratives from Cultural Literature...

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This Thread is at the request of the Poster known as eve. We started talking elsewhere about how I used portions of the Disney Adaptation of Peter Pan, to make my point in a Gospel Tract I wrote. She spoke about several points from Peter Pan that are Archetypes of Theism and Christianity. We decided instead of diverting the Thread we were on, discussion could take place here. As usual, all can participate as they like; but I usually don't like to argue, preferring discussion and debate...

I'll post my Gospel Tract titled Peter Pan, and if you would like to join in with us, feel free to start discussing. Whatever you feel like has Biblical themes as a part of It's narrative, go ahead and maybe someone will speak up about it. Over time I'll Post other Gospel Tracts to discuss. If you recognize my Gospel Tracts from the old CARM Forums, yes it is me. I had the opportunity to change my old Username to my Pen Name...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Peter Pan ~ by ReverendRV

Colossians 2:16-17
; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When I think of ‘shadows’ my mind goes to the story of Peter Pan. In the Disney adaptation we find that Peter Pan goes looking for his shadow and finds it in the home of the Girl Wendy. It seems that the shadow has a mind of it’s own and from time to time it runs away. It takes quite an effort for the shadow to be captured, and Wendy helps Peter by sewing the shadow to his feet. Thus his shadow ceases its effort to escape; for now…

God gave his Law to the Jews through his Prophet Moses. The Jews became zealous for Gods Law and rightfully so. The Apostle Paul says that the Law was given by God to show us that we are Sinners; and to point us to Jesus. ~ In ancient days the people kept the time of day with a sundial. A sundial has a shadow casting device called a gnomon, attached to a dial plate which has markings. The markings almost always have hours, and may or may not be legal time, often it is local sun time. The sundial always points to the truth. Paul teaches us that the ‘things’ he mentions in this verse are some of the markings on the face of the sundial, and the shadow is cast from the gnomon. We are to learn from this sundial just ‘how far gone we are’ in our spiritual day. Have you ever told a lie? Then the gnomon’s shadow has started moving across the clock face and stops at half past the ‘Liar’ marking. Have you ever stolen? The shadow moves more and stops at ‘Thief’. The day has hardly begun but we see ‘it is time’ that we know the truth…

Like the shadow of Peter Pan, the Jews began to chase the shadow of the Law as if it were the reality. They loved the darkness rather than the light. We, like them, have gone astray and do not want to come into the light. What we fail to realize is that without light, there is no shadow to be cast onto the ground. In our fascination for the shadow, the thought has never occurred to us that if we follow the shadow from the face of the sundial back to it’s origin we will find out ‘who’ the gnomon is! The Bible tells us that Jesus kept the Law of God perfectly and we are living in his shadow. He is the gnomon which reaches all the way up to Heaven. Climb Jacobs ladder, if you enter the Kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, you will not be judged guilty by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

But you ask, “Didn’t Jesus say that not one dot of an ‘i’ or one cross of a ‘t’ will perish from the Law of God?” Yes, he did; but we also learn from the Bible that, “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” If we do not keep the festivals but we do keep the Sabbath days, then we are cursed because we have not continued to do everything written in the books of the Law of Moses. Instead, let’s live by Gods Grace! Don’t be like Peter Pan and desire a life which chases the shadow of the reality, only to sew it to your heel. The shadow will escape you again, because it is only dangling by a thread…

Ephesians 2:8; For by Grace you are saved through Faith apart from Works so that no man can boast…
 

e v e

Well-known member
Peter Pan ~ by ReverendRV

Colossians 2:16-17
; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

When I think of ‘shadows’ my mind goes to the story of Peter Pan. In the Disney adaptation we find that Peter Pan goes looking for his shadow and finds it in the home of the Girl Wendy. It seems that the shadow has a mind of it’s own and from time to time it runs away. It takes quite an effort for the shadow to be captured, and Wendy helps Peter by sewing the shadow to his feet. Thus his shadow ceases its effort to escape; for now…

God gave his Law to the Jews through his Prophet Moses. The Jews became zealous for Gods Law and rightfully so. The Apostle Paul says that the Law was given by God to show us that we are Sinners; and to point us to Jesus. ~ In ancient days the people kept the time of day with a sundial. A sundial has a shadow casting device called a gnomon, attached to a dial plate which has markings. The markings almost always have hours, and may or may not be legal time, often it is local sun time. The sundial always points to the truth. Paul teaches us that the ‘things’ he mentions in this verse are some of the markings on the face of the sundial, and the shadow is cast from the gnomon. We are to learn from this sundial just ‘how far gone we are’ in our spiritual day. Have you ever told a lie? Then the gnomon’s shadow has started moving across the clock face and stops at half past the ‘Liar’ marking. Have you ever stolen? The shadow moves more and stops at ‘Thief’. The day has hardly begun but we see ‘it is time’ that we know the truth…

Like the shadow of Peter Pan, the Jews began to chase the shadow of the Law as if it were the reality. They loved the darkness rather than the light. We, like them, have gone astray and do not want to come into the light. What we fail to realize is that without light, there is no shadow to be cast onto the ground. In our fascination for the shadow, the thought has never occurred to us that if we follow the shadow from the face of the sundial back to it’s origin we will find out ‘who’ the gnomon is! The Bible tells us that Jesus kept the Law of God perfectly and we are living in his shadow. He is the gnomon which reaches all the way up to Heaven. Climb Jacobs ladder, if you enter the Kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, you will not be judged guilty by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

But you ask, “Didn’t Jesus say that not one dot of an ‘i’ or one cross of a ‘t’ will perish from the Law of God?” Yes, he did; but we also learn from the Bible that, “For all who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” If we do not keep the festivals but we do keep the Sabbath days, then we are cursed because we have not continued to do everything written in the books of the Law of Moses. Instead, let’s live by Gods Grace! Don’t be like Peter Pan and desire a life which chases the shadow of the reality, only to sew it to your heel. The shadow will escape you again, because it is only dangling by a thread…

Ephesians 2:8; For by Grace you are saved through Faith apart from Works so that no man can boast…
Thank you for starting the thread. I'm rereading your post now and pondering the shadow construct.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you for starting the thread. I'm rereading your post now and pondering the shadow construct.
Though I started the Thread, I suppose it will be yours. I like to spend time on two other subforums, but I won't abandon you here. It may take a little time to respond, but that's typical when life calls...
 

e v e

Well-known member
Part I of response to your first paragraph...
from the view point of archetypes... let me run through some negative interpretations, simply from the names used and the situations...

peter pan can represent a fallen construct of man glued to a false mixed realm... already separated from his soul and unaware of his situation... pan as name is a horrible construct representing a mixed being, a satyr with animal and human qualitites. In a way that is how we are, because we are souls yet trapped in these perishable bodies.
It could be a disguised reference to the god pan who battled typhon, pan being a very negative figure because he uses a false music. Both his first and last name, peter pan, represents the phallic which is entirely negative and a satanic construct (obelisks etc.) God has no phallic constructs. Pan is a goat figure, which we can also find archetypes for in scripture. And in peter pan, he offers wendy to take her to a heaven like place which resembles eden but is not. This could be allusion to eating of the tree of good and evil in that the realm of Peter pan, neverland, contains both, with a dualism hook and pan always at war.
 

e v e

Well-known member
Though I started the Thread, I suppose it will be yours. I like to spend time on two other subforums, but I won't abandon you here. It may take a little time to respond, but that's typical when life calls...
I understand. well no one reads anything I write on these forums... but you know that already.
It doesn't bother me. Maybe someone will get on here or not, but I will reply to your post, although I am going line by line
and once I reply to everything, you could post the Alice one.

But don't expect much response to this thread... I would be surprised if so. Enjoy your other forums Bruiser.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I understand. well no one reads anything I write on these forums... but you know that already.
It doesn't bother me. Maybe someone will get on here or not, but I will reply to your post, although I am going line by line
and once I reply to everything, you could post the Alice one.

But don't expect much response to this thread... I would be surprised if so. Enjoy your other forums Bruiser.
Since I started the Thread, I'll be around...

What Denomination do you say you're closer to?

From the looks of the folks here, I think they'll have something to say about my Gospel Tracts sooner or later...
 

e v e

Well-known member
Continued about the construct of peter pan character.
Peter seems to be 'the good character' and hook the evil one. He can fly and is unaffected by gravity. The island he is on seems to be very far away, in another reality unlike this one, since here, people are held down by gravity. However, not everyone on the island can fly.

It seems that tinkerbell holds a key, having some pixie dust that allows one to become enlightened (=fly). I will post separately on tinkerbell archetype and what it can be.

I am telling how I read the story that canaan (this world) has devised and called 'peter pan' and released by Disney to cause subconscious attitudes in those who watch and what these obscure hints Disney makes 'can' represent subliminally.

peter apparently visits this world and finds the children. There is no mention of the lost boys already on pans island, if they got to the island the same way, being sprinkled by tinkerbell with the dust and captured by peter. But at this point a way to read the story is that peter is a satanic type entity ( a false christ type ) who mesmerizes or entraps souls to go to his area (which on the other thread would be the area of those who tempted eden and made her to fall, the area now above eden.)

In myth, pan sings a false tune, traps souls by a melody and is part goat part man, a satyr or horned deity..so this construct of peter pan would be a construct after eden fell... where then some eden qualities mixed with satanic ones (example adam adopting carnality.)

The horn (still talking of pan the satyr who is half man and half animal) is an eden construct, acquired/stolen after the fall and converted into a satanic form. Compare Micah 4, the hoofs of brass and one horn of iron, but these are inversed (being the fallen situation, inversion) and doubled in the horned goat construct. See Daniel, the 4 horns in the cardinal directions. Daniel writes about “the ram’s horns which grew high”. Consider, eden-lampstand corrupted after the fall to the ram goat as satan-realm lampstand [same archetype as behemoth], as the abomination of desolation. Indeed, since there are eden qualities to the 'archetype' then a soul could be led astray, thinking it was good...just as in the peter pan movie, peter pan seems a very nice flying boy... but consider his name

Back to the behemoth version of the lampstand, which is the deformed version after the fall, and their false axis, the phallus. Now look at Peter pan's name, exactly the same. But we can see that Disney makes it 'fun' to go astray (onto the wrong axis/direction). And in fact, the name wendy as a term means Astray... to wander off which is what peter causes to happen. So we have pan leading wendy astray.

The whole thing is set in london... and that would not seem a positive since as archetype london is not good. But we can get to wendy later and tinkerbell and to london later.
 
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e v e

Well-known member
Since I started the Thread, I'll be around...

What Denomination do you say you're closer to?

From the looks of the folks here, I think they'll have something to say about my Gospel Tracts sooner or later...
Thank you. I am not going to push a meaning okay. I've mentioned Daniel and Micah..and some archetypes and then to see what others will want to say about it.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Thank you. I am not going to push a meaning okay. I've mentioned Daniel and Micah..and some archetypes and then to see what others will want to say about it.
All right. I suppose you know I'm an Evangelist, so I'll be heading in that direction with all responders...

Well; all that time, patience, and civility will allow :)
 

e v e

Well-known member
It's all a bit horrifying how going to the movies, or books, or music, can involve an inculcation to satanic points of view. And it must be a point to be able to distinguish the realms, by their coloring and be able to spot when something is not His...
 

e v e

Well-known member
All right. I suppose you know I'm an Evangelist, so I'll be heading in that direction with all responders...

Well; all that time, patience, and civility will allow :)
I understand. I'm just doing etymology of those archetypes, so I will be curious of how you would take those and am not going to argue or go into theology...I don't like debate much as it ends up getting so harsh.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I understand. I'm just doing etymology of those archetypes, so I will be curious of how you would take those and am not going to argue or go into theology...I don't like debate much as it ends up getting so harsh.
I will try to be a good student...
 

e v e

Well-known member
I will try to be a good student...
alright... remember I am trying to stay close to His point of view... and of course pagan type modern secular movies and books do not really lend to His point of view overall... in terms of their type of hero... so I am just looking at the types. <3

The way pan appears is very negative...but wendy's deciding to leave him and return 'home' to london is also negative... perhaps symbolizing the trap human beings are placed in, which is the tree of good and evil... where the good of that tree is negative, though seeming to be good...
 

e v e

Well-known member
peter pan's island seems to have an eden-like quality (pretty nature, an island away from cities and civilization) but at the same time being a war zone. note that everything on the island is male until wendy shows up.

Right now it seems to me that the pan archetype in that movie can represent the Goat from the hostile dimension (satan realm) which replaced
the Ram as eden’s lampstand... (the pan version representing the inversion, the fallen mindset of the Self that is astray from God. --which Disney makes to be so much fun, an excursion in disobedience to the parents... (of Wendy and her two brothers.)
 

e v e

Well-known member
In Egytian tuat II, the construct such as this is the first animal-construct to rise, is a ram; it seems the eden-lampstand was dualistic (ram), being devised “to re-conquer” : (implying also Adam had something in-built what could made him to fall..?); the line must tell that because of the Fall, the (Eden) ram became haughty(adam?) and therefore vulnerable to the satanic Dualism; in hieroglyph spells, the ram is deformed already as SER and SERÁ glyphs, which are a post-eden concept.

This is why to see pan as negative..he can represents adam as already fallen and haughty, yet notice, still in the eden area and not upon this earth with its gravity, since he has the dust of eden, which buoys him... such that the peter pan character represents the deformed ram. (ref. Daniel 8)

Again, I am giving my opinion on the types...because the satan realm does try to make its own types attractive to the soul and holly wood is used to pull that off, such as to make a soul astray. Wendy and her brothers can represent us, who are as the children to be led astray - souls.

So the archetypes are of goat (satan's) and the original ram (of Eden.) The false ram is also a title of the satan realm osiris.
 

e v e

Well-known member
I stop there for now. I think wendy is simply meaning 'astray souls' or simple soul, to wend, wander off, who but gets mesmerized by the childhood things peter represents (recall the pied piper archetype), yet what he represents is a mimic eternal youth and childhood (freedom, imagination), not the real thing.
 

e v e

Well-known member
A complication is that the story maker (disney) sets this all london part 'in this world' and pan's world as an escape from this world... mimicking a return to the eden situation and setting peter up as an adam figure trying to 'get back his soul' (the lost shadow which is on this earth and which is Wendy)... it can be read that way... since in fact, the fallen adam would still have had the eden aspects being the ram and NOT their goat construct.... i dont really know exactly how to read either the first way or this way, only that I do not trust Disney to ever give God's version of anything at all, ever, and so I think the goal would be to create a mixup in the mind as to what things mean, because the viewer is led to like pan and champion his cause in neverland. neverland does represent eden and it can be then that pan represents fallen adam, in the other world... not here...

I am going to reread your write up as so far I have only responded to the first paragraph and will say more maybe tomorrow about what you interpreted.
 

e v e

Well-known member
But the only escape from this world would be by the Change, with God, not by running off with 'pan', if peter pan archetype represents what i wrote before. Yes, it's speculative and I am just seeing this by the types presented, but also with a distrust of anything Hollywood I can see that the story is 'mixed' as are most things presented as 'entertainment' and perhaps as an subtle 'education', presented in a form of 'fun' and supposed innocent themes which are not so much innocent.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
But the only escape from this world would be by the Change, not by running off with 'pan'.
I've read your Posts but am afraid I don't understand your teaching. On what basis do you say that your determination of the Archetypes mean what you say they mean? For instance, I base my meaning on the Bible, Theology and Doctrine; IE typical Evangelicalism...

I know you don't want to tell me your Theological Foundation, but knowing your presuppositions will help me recognize your Archetypes. I try not to beat people up because of what they believe...
 
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