Apologetics vs One's Integrity

Dant01

Active member
.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of
forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the
defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly
concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained
the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?


Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.
_
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of
forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the
defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly
concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained
the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?


Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.
_
As a Christian: I understand how atheists can think that God's actions can seem to be unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic..

Now what?
 

Algernon

Active member
.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of
forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the
defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly
concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained
the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?


Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.
_
After reading the tread title and the first paragraph, I thought that this thread was going to be about the lack of integrity of Christians about their interpretations of the Bible or even in general. Have to admit that I was more than bit surprised at the turn it took.

Do you also "find it difficult to find a Christian with integrity" when it comes to interpreting the Bible or even in general?
Do you also "believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit" when it comes to interpreting the Bible or even in general?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?

I am fully aware of the answer I'm "supposed" to give, but in all honesty, I don't recall every felt any of those ideas. I was introduced to Christianity as an Arminian (which goes to great lengths, intentionally or otherwise, to try to "protect" God's image, and I eventually worked my way to Calvinism, through the teachings of the Bible, in such a gradual progression that those ideas never entered into my mind.

Further, I never felt that I was in a position to presume to judge God. After all, I only know in part, and God knows fully. Further still, to address each of those criticisms, you would really have to flesh them out and define them with a level of precision. For instance, there is valid reason that we are not to be selfish, but there is valid reason for God to be what man might call "selfish". Man is not deity. Man does not have the right to things that God has the right to.

Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

Again, in all honesty, no, there hasn't been.
Before I became a Christian, I didn't even consider God. I didn't care whether He existed or not. And from the time I first became a Christian, there's never been a time when I wished He didn't exist.

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.

God knows my answers are 100% true.
There's no reason for me to lie, since God knows me better than I know myself.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
As a Christian: I understand how atheists can think that God's actions can seem to be unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic..

Now what?

Exactly.

It's all well can good to tell an atheist, "I understand why you feel that way", but the kind of atheists who approach Christians (IMO) aren't interested in honest discussion, and will take such a response as, "Aha! So you agree with me that God is selfish and cruel!"
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?

Oh yeah.

It's very difficult for me to understand the value God places on delegated authority, and the victimization that results from judgment over someone else's decision I had no part of. I still struggle with it, but ask for help.

That is where it is hard to bow the knee, but after all, God owes me nothing, and I am born sinful of no choice of my own.

I think if we deny we feel offense at that, we are denying our heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Interesting post.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
As a Christian: I understand how atheists can think that God's actions can seem to be unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic..

Now what?
Yes, these do not believe Jesus when he commands of us to be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect and have the same mind of God he had from Him when God opened up all of His heaven to him as He does in us all who receives the same from Him. These do not believe Matt 3:16 that God did come to Jesus and opened up His heaven to him from lack in having the same from God themselves to be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect as Jesus commanded of us all.
 

Dant01

Active member
.
I prefer to sympathize with skeptics seeing as how I and they have many opinions
in common; for example:

GOD: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

ME: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

ME: Yes.

The Bible encourages Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace with
boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia (par-rhay-see'
ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God, and
about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too unholy to out.
Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret from God. Well; in time
I came to a realization that keeping secrets from God is not only stressful, but also
quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense or
deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know they're hiding
something, and terrified that somebody will come along and figure it out.
_
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God, and
about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too unholy to out.
Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret from God. Well; in time
I came to a realization that keeping secrets from God is not only stressful, but also
quite futile.

Certainly the Psalmist showed his human frailty in his cries to God. As long as we end with "have mercy on my a sinner," I think we can let out some honest struggles. The Problem of Evil can become an idol in and of itself, and I've been there. "God, I don't think your reasons for allowing this are sufficient." I do think we should strive for sanctification, though; I regret the times I let my emotions get the better of me. Job let it all out, but he never once prayed the prayer "God have mercy on me." I think he could avoided the correction he received. Asking for help is the key to everything. If God loves the victims more than I do, and if what my heart thinks is love for victims is really just selfish offense for the way their victimization makes me feel bad, then I'm screwed up in my thinking when I accuse God. But again, I've transgressed terribly in this, but repented thoroughly. I would just set limits upon the honest frustration to not cross over into irreverence. Prayers and blessings.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
.
I prefer to sympathize with skeptics seeing as how I and they have many opinions
in common; for example:
The reality of God be in you and you be in Him as one dissipates opinions. For when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him. 1 John 3. Opinions are not reality, opinions are self imposed and purely speculation from ignorance.
GOD: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

ME: Yes.

GOD: Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

ME: Yes.

The Bible encourages Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace with
boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia (par-rhay-see'
ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God, and
about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too unholy to out.
Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret from God. Well; in time
I came to a realization that keeping secrets from God is not only stressful, but also
quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense or
deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know they're hiding
something, and terrified that somebody will come along and figure it out.
_
 

101G

Well-known member
Certainly the Psalmist showed his human frailty in his cries to God. As long as we end with "have mercy on my a sinner," I think we can let out some honest struggles. The Problem of Evil can become an idol in and of itself, and I've been there. "God, I don't think your reasons for allowing this are sufficient." I do think we should strive for sanctification, though; I regret the times I let my emotions get the better of me. Job let it all out, but he never once prayed the prayer "God have mercy on me." I think he could avoided the correction he received. Asking for help is the key to everything. If God loves the victims more than I do, and if what my heart thinks is love for victims is really just selfish offense for the way their victimization makes me feel bad, then I'm screwed up in my thinking when I accuse God. But again, I've transgressed terribly in this, but repented thoroughly. I would just set limits upon the honest frustration to not cross over into irreverence. Prayers and blessings.
Good reply, on scripture, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

that LOVE MERCY is the Key, and true, as the scriptures states, Hebrews 12:4 "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."

but as said, LOVE MERCY is the Key, and it is found in "FORGIVNESS". Luke 23:34 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

if we JUST LOVE one another, we can overcome the sin in us.

thanks for your post,

PICJAG, 101G
 

ferengi

Well-known member
.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.
Is it hard to be a dishonest hypocrite?
When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic;
Since your post is not rational you are not one of these.
According to objective standard does god do evil?
Instead of forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense;
Why do you assume you make sense a priori?
I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit.
So god does not appreciate your deceit.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Is it hard to be a dishonest hypocrite?

Since your post is not rational you are not one of these.
According to objective standard does god do evil?

Why do you assume you make sense a priori?

So god does not appreciate your deceit.
Anytime someone says they are Christian sends up a red flag. I do not use the term myself for it is so abused. If someone askes, I reply -- Im a son of God if that is what you mean. Most of these cant relate to that statement and get that deer in the headlight look.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
if we JUST LOVE one another, we can overcome the sin in us.

But the Bible says we overcome sin by the faith in what Jesus did on the Cross, not our inherent goodness. We need to trust in Christ as Savior and not our own efforts.

Peace in Christ.
 

Rockson

Active member
.
It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you
a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out....
Are we allowed to put forth too that it's very difficult to find a rational skeptic? Or is it rather just Christians that are asked such loaded questions?
When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only
unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average
Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive.
Guess it depends what it means when you say they circle the wagons. If you're going to suggest the answers they said didn't make sense to you then that's what you're going to say they did. If what they said was in fact true what did they do what was wrong. And I also don't know how you're defining they become defensive.
Instead of
forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the
defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly
concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained
the very same opinions.
But you don't know at all that they've felt this way. I've seen many who have been raised as child with a religious upbringing and their minds never do and never has gone to a place of thinking of God as being unjust. It seems that you're wanting to just conclude that they couldn't be sincere.
I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So;
if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad
man?


Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?
So why would God ask such a question when he'd already know? And you could have somebody who did but honestly forgot they had a thought this way.
The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He
wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly
what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or
tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better
be honest.
_
Ha....so you're saying that God by asking us questions sets us up for a test. Why should he do that to us some day? Why should he add another sin of a lie to their judgment or assessment? I think rather it would be more of a roll out of what's on record and the Bible talks about the books of Heaven.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Ha.... so you're saying that God by asking us questions sets us up for a test.

I personally think you missed the point of the post. Although the book of Job might indicate God does this, I don't think that was his point here. His point was that we should be as honest with God as we can, and not try to act over confident and like we understand all the mysteries easily. Humility is virtue and brings God's grace, but humility can say "I don't know" for some things. It seems the modern apologetics movement has made some of us feel like we have to look really good to unbelievers and have an answer for everything, but sometimes admitting we don't know or we struggle is actually a virtue that brings grace. Apologetics can make us feel like we need to be pumped full of more information, instead of deep character formation—as if Job could have explained his situation and "given an answer for the hope that lies within him." Some challenges can simply feel overwhelming and beyond our intellect, and pride makes us not want to look dumb and weak and bad to the unbelievers, as if our great intellect will attract them to Christ. It's okay to just say "Thou O Lord knowest," and that some things confuse or offend us, but "You alone have the words of eternal life." It's okay to look stupid and weak for Christ, because this is the place he uses his power, the weak things of the world, and the intellect will just make us self-sufficient and fall prey to pride and judgmentalism. Just some thoughts.
 

101G

Well-known member
But the Bible says we overcome sin by the faith in what Jesus did on the Cross, not our inherent goodness. We need to trust in Christ as Savior and not our own efforts.

Peace in Christ.
yes, but one must USE that POWER, listen, Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
Romans 6:13 "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."
Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Let in verse 12 above is a conditional word, to do or not. it's an act of the will. just as the word "neither" in verse 13, is within your power to act or not. see, God, the Lord Jesus place us back in the same condition that the FIRST Adam had....... "A CHOICE" . but this time with the Wisdom and Knowledge of God, so we can obey or not that's the Question.

so FAITH is to be INCREASED. fo all of us got the "measure" of Faith. but that Faith must be added to, supportive scripture, 2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;" 2 Peter 1:6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;" 2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity." 2 Peter 1:8 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Peter 1:9 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." 2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" BINGO.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
101G said:
if we JUST LOVE one another, we can overcome the sin in us.
It isnt up to us to deal with sin at all. If you try and deal with sin you will fail miserably every time.

What you do not understand is He comes and takes away the sins of this world and in that it isnt up to us to deal with it, it is up to God to deal with it and either He has removed your sin to walk as He walk in His perfections, Trying to deal with sin is you are trying to play god and deal with it by your laws for sin.
 

Rockson

Active member
I personally think you missed the point of the post. Although the book of Job might indicate God does this,
And yet God didn't press Job with a question do you think I'm being fair?
His point was that we should be as honest with God as we can, and not try to act over confident and like we understand all the mysteries easily.
I get that. But the OP was insinuating that there's times where everyone thinks God is unfair and should admit it. I don't think anyone has any place to admit they can speak for all people believing this is true.
Humility is virtue and brings God's grace, but humility can say "I don't know" for some things.
I agree. But that doesn't have to translate into they believe God is unfair or there was a certain time in their life that they thought he was.
It seems the modern apologetics movement has made some of us feel like we have to look really good to unbelievers and have an answer for everything,
Actually we should try our best to have such. 1 Pt 3:15 states as much.
 
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