Appointed to Eternal Life !

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TomFL

Guest
They are not conditions for God's choosing, silly. Merit is the same as conditions, perhaps not so exact that you won't be nitpicky. Being strong because you worked out is a merit, as well as a condition for being chosen to be in the World's Strongest Man competition. Something you are/do. Since when has the Bible said that faith and repentance are a condition for God to choose you in Him before the foundation of the world? It is not explicitly mentioned, anywhere. In fact, it would cause a reality shattering paradox.
No they arnot the same. That is merely your assumption. Paul in fact shows otherwise

What is not mentioned anywhere is that God unconditionally elects all men to either to salvation and reprobation
 

armylngst

Well-known member
And granted does not mean irresistably effectually instilled
True, but in the verse where it states that it is irrevocable, it does. Salvation/justification is something God considers us. So it means that they will be saved, and there is nothing they can do about it. The calling and the grace are irrevocable. That seems clear to me.
and faith is not meritorious as Paul shows
No it isn't, so as such, it is not a condition for God choosing us before the foundation of the world. As has been stated more times than I can count half asleep, He chose according to the good pleasure of His will.
Rom. 3:26–27 —KJV
“To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

and it is the condition upon which regeneration, justification , reception of the Spirit, salvation are predicated
God's choice of whom will come to Him, of whom He will draw to Jesus, and who Jesus will not lose, is predicated on God, not on anything you mentioned.
 
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TomFL

Guest
True, but in the verse where it states that it is irrevocable, it does. Salvation/justification is something God considers us. So it means that they will be saved, and there is nothing they can do about it. The calling and the grace are irrevocable. That seems clear to me.

Point on the verse you speak of
No it isn't, so as such, it is not a condition for God choosing us before the foundation of the world. As has been stated more times than I can count half asleep, He chose according to the good pleasure of His will.


To the contrary men were chosen in Christ that is a condition effected by faith


God's choice of whom will come to Him, of whom He will draw to Jesus, and who Jesus will not lose, is predicated on God, not on anything you mentioned.

John 12:32 —ESV
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.””
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Point on the verse you speak of
Actually, you quoted it previously, but somehow the depth of spiritual meaning in the verse escaped you. Romans 11:29
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Salvation is a gift of God, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Irrevocable. So if God called you, if God has chosen you for salvation, it is irrevocable. You cannot escape God. You are His. Of course, you are somehow going to redefine irrevocable, but you do you.
To the contrary men were chosen in Christ that is a condition effected by faith
Um...what? You do realize if God looked forward in time and chose people because He saw that they chose Him and got saved, that the resulting paradox would destroy the universe, right?
John 12:32 —ESV
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.””
Ah, so you are actually a universalist? Nice.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Actually, you quoted it previously, but somehow the depth of spiritual meaning in the verse escaped you. Romans 11:29
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Salvation is a gift of God, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Irrevocable. So if God called you, if God has chosen you for salvation, it is irrevocable. You cannot escape God. You are His. Of course, you are somehow going to redefine irrevocable, but you do you.

How does that contradict anything i stated ?

are you making

assumptions about what I hold
Um...what? You do realize if God looked forward in time and chose people because He saw that they chose Him and got saved, that the resulting paradox would destroy the universe, right?

Ah, so you are actually a universalist? Nice.

You are very confused . No I am not a universalist

Are you ?

And the verse is not about God chosing people unconditionally but about God chosing men based upon being in Christ to be holy and blameless
 
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guest1

Guest
10 And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.’ Acts 22:10. Same word.

This word refers to what is orderly arranged, the order of things. Paul was instructed to preach the Gospel FIRST to the Jew and only then to the Gentile. What did Paul do in Acts 13? He preached to the Jews first and when they rejected the message of eternal life, he turned to the Gentiles just as he was instructed, just as it was appointed for him to do.

The Jews who were appointed to receive the message of eternal life first, rejected it
And it was orderly arranged for Paul to then turn to the Gentiles. Gentiles were appointed to receive the message of eternal life upon Jewish rejection of the message.
And unlike the Jews, the Gentiles who were appointed to receive the message upon Jewish rejection, believed.

That's the POINT of the language used in Luke's account. It has nothing to do with people being specifically chosen by God to believe. What is appointed for Paul is to deliver the message of eternal life to Gentiles after it was proclaimed to the Jews first. We are told this is what was appointed for him to do.
nice dodge but the text says those who were first appointed resulted in their belief and received eternal life. You are convoluting the clear order of things in the text.

hope this helps !!!
 
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TomFL

Guest
nice dodge but the text says those who were first appointed resulted in their belief and received eternal life. You are convoluting the clear order of things in the text.

hope this helps !!!
True but does the text state upon what basis they were appointed ? Assuming appointed is the correct translation of Tasso here
 
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TomFL

Guest
Ephesians states that it was "according to the good pleasure of His will". Why are you demanding God that He have a reason, stated to all, for anything that He does? God will not be audited.
Yeah and what is his good pleasure ?

That he would chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless before him in love and to be adopted as sons

That does not mean you are free to assume unconditional election to salvation at Acts 13:48
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts 13:48]

From Mounce’s NT Interlinear...


τάσσω (tassō)​

Strong: G5021

GK: G5435

to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2


Yep, those appointed to eternal life was salvific in nature. They weren’t appointed to visit the dentist.
 
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TomFL

Guest
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts 13:48]

From Mounce’s NT Interlinear...


τάσσω (tassō)​

Strong: G5021

GK: G5435

to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2


Yep, those appointed to eternal life was salvific in nature. They weren’t appointed to visit the dentist.
And on what basis were they appointed to eternal life

You wouldn't be reading in an unconditional election to salvation from before the foundation of the earth which is not mentioned would you ?
 

armylngst

Well-known member
How does that contradict anything i stated ?
Oh, so you do believe in irresistible grace? If you do not, then that is how it contradicts what you have stated. Also perseverance of the saints. Salvation is a gift from God, and, as Romans states, that is irrevocable. Why? Because God put you in that state, and God has stated that He who put you in that state, will keep you in that state. I understand you believe libertarian free will can overrule God, but I don't believe that.
are you making

assumptions about what I hold
Probably, because I am running under the assumption that you aren't a flat out heretic. (Unlike some here.)
You are very confused . No I am not a universalist

Are you ?

And the verse is not about God chosing people unconditionally but about God chosing men based upon being in Christ to be holy and blameless
I notice how you didn't deal with the reality shattering paradox. Perhaps because you know it is true?
The verse itself may not seem to say that God is choosing people unconditionally, but the passage, as a whole, does. I already accused you of isolating verses, and you have yet to disappoint.

The verse does not say God chose men based upon being in Christ. It says "He chose us in Him". That's it. Okay, that isn't it. He said "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." That's it. (And it is) This is a very special present tense situation. It means, from His point of view, He chose us...in Christ. What is special about that? Well, Peter says that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, just like these people were chosen before the foundation of the world. Coincidence? I think not. Why not? This verse is not an isolated context.

These people (individuals) who were chosen before the foundation of the world would only be chosen to live holy and blameless, if everyone were not living holy and blameless. I mean, that isn't too difficult to understand. It all leads to the understanding that this speaks of God choosing us for salvation, and that He does not see us any other way. We, temporally, know that we were totally depraved without hope, until one day, the Great Shepherd came and rounded up us sheep. In God's eyes, we were lost sheep, and then we were found sheep. Sheep from the start, sheep at the end. The only difference is that the beginning we had gone astray, and at the end, we had been rounded up by the Great Shepherd. It goes hand in hand with the parable of the wheat and the tares. Sowed wheat, harvested wheat. Someone else sowed tares, burnt tares to a crisp. You will notice that tares did not become wheat, and wheat did not become tares. There is a spiritual message hidden in there, as all Jesus parables hid spiritual truth. Revelation speaks of two different animal groups in dealing with people. Sheep and goats. Just who are the goats? Can a sheep become a goat, or a goat become a sheep? Aren't there two states spoken of in the Bible for sheep? Lost and found? What does the lost mean, and what does the found mean? Are you beginning to see a little light in why some of us believe that once a sheep, always a sheep, whether lost or found, and that Jesus will not lose a single one, which means all sheep will be found?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Oh, so you do believe in irresistible grace? If you do not, then that is how it contradicts what you have stated. Also perseverance of the saints. Salvation is a gift from God, and, as Romans states, that is irrevocable. Why? Because God put you in that state, and God has stated that He who put you in that state, will keep you in that state. I understand you believe libertarian free will can overrule God, but I don't believe that.

No I do not believe in irrestistible grace. I believe in grace and no I do not believe libertarian fre will can overrule God. No one believes that,
Probably, because I am running under the assumption that you aren't a flat out heretic. (Unlike some here.)
Well I am no kind of a heretic. Everything I believe is orthodox

And I can support it with systematic theologies of which I have many

I notice how you didn't deal with the reality shattering paradox. Perhaps because you know it is true?
The verse itself may not seem to say that God is choosing people unconditionally, but the passage, as a whole, does. I already accused you of isolating verses, and you have yet to disappoint.
I did deal with it. I see no force in it at all
But no the passage as a whole does not. You have to prove these things by reading them out from scripture not reading your view into it

If you start with a preconceived notion it is quite likely you Will see what your preconceived notion tells you.








The verse does not say God chose men based upon being in Christ. It says "He chose us in Him".

Yes and the us is the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”


Christ is the elect

The head of the church

The church is his body

Men are elect only in association with the elect body the church which is in Christ


That's it. Okay, that isn't it. He said "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." That's it.
No that is not it

Chose them to be holy and blameless before him

There was no chosing of men to unconditionally be in Christ
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts 13:48]

From Mounce’s NT Interlinear...


τάσσω (tassō)​

Strong: G5021

GK: G5435

to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2


Yep, those appointed to eternal life was salvific in nature. They weren’t appointed to visit the dentist.
To appoint denotes Gods rule, control, arrangement ! Acts 13 48 most certainly reveals Gods Sovereignty on who receives eternal life and who believes.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.[Acts 13:48]

From Mounce’s NT Interlinear...


τάσσω (tassō)​

Strong: G5021

GK: G5435

to arrange; to set, appoint, in a certain station, Lk. 7:8; Rom. 13:1; to set, devote, to a pursuit, 1 Cor. 16:15; to dispose, frame, for an object, Acts 13:48; to arrange, appoint, place or time, Mt. 28:16; Acts 28:23; to allot, assign, Acts 22:10; to settle, decide, Acts 15:2


Yep, those appointed to eternal life was salvific in nature. They weren’t appointed to visit the dentist.
Yes of course Acts 13:48 is salvific

The questions from Mounce however should be twofold

is the translation appoint or dispose

Most favorable to Calvinist interpretationwould be appoint

If appoint what was the basis for the appointing

It canot just be assumed it was an unconditional decree from before the foundation of the earth

The arminian would point to to God's foreknowledge as the grounds

Others could point to scriptures like Ro 8:28,29 where those who love God and are called according to his purpose those God knew formerly are predestined to be conformed to the imagre of Christ

Or even Jn 6:44,45 where those that are the fathers are given to Christ

My own personal opinion however is it should be translated disposed as the passage presents the attitude of the gentiles in stark contrast to the Jews who rejected eternal life for themselves

In any case there are a number of non Calvinist interpretations which fit the data of the passage

So it cannot just be asumed evidence for an unconditional election to salvation
 
G

guest1

Guest
True but does the text state upon what basis they were appointed ? Assuming appointed is the correct translation of Tasso here
not in that text but in others its by Gods will they are elected, chosen, appointed, predestined etc............
 

armylngst

Well-known member
No I do not believe in irrestistible grace. I believe in grace and no I do not believe libertarian fre will can overrule God. No one believes that,
So you believe God and His grace can be resisted? And what, do tell is resisting/overruling God, if not one's libertarian free will? You either believe that God's calling and His gifts are irresistible/irrevocable (Peter said that), or you believe men can resist/overrule God. There is no middle ground here. In the Greek, Ephesians 1:3-14 are all one sentence. There are no breaks within, so it is all related. You keep breaking it all up. So the individuals chosen in verse 4 are saved in verse 5. All one sentence. "
4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"" (Young's Literal Translation)
Look at the structure. God chose something (chose us in him), to do something (for our being holy and unblemished before Him) because He did something (in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself) for some reason (according to the good pleasure of His will). So God chose us in Christ to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, so that we might live holy and unblemished lives before Him. [I shouldn't say this, but I want to see you try to explain away that "having foreordained us" when it is solidly connected to Ephesians 1:4.

I did deal with it. I see no force in it at all
But no the passage as a whole does not. You have to prove these things by reading them out from scripture not reading your view into it

If you start with a preconceived notion it is quite likely you Will see what your preconceived notion tells you.
I have yet to see you deal with the reality shattering paradox. Do you even know what it is? It is your belief clashing with the clear teachings of Jesus. You create an infinite loop where the Earth never gets created. Show me that you even know what the paradox is, and then deal with it.
Yes and the us is the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”


Christ is the elect

The head of the church

The church is his body

Men are elect only in association with the elect body the church which is in Christ
That is your preconceived notion, but the English and Greek clearly states "us", and not it. Paul is clearly addressing the "us", which is himself, and the individuals who are saints and are faithful in Christ Jesus. True believers. The church is the body of believers...corporate. That is to say, what is true about the church, is true about every individual in the church. That is the spiritual understanding of the church. The Bible speaks of us individuals being the temple of the Holy Spirit (God). You cannot take verses in isolation, which you can't seem to get past. What you said above, contradicts what both Paul and Peter had to say. Of course, if you remove Peter from the scene, you can say what you want of Paul, but if you add Peter back in, now there is contradiction.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No I do not believe in irrestistible grace. I believe in grace and no I do not believe libertarian fre will can overrule God. No one believes that,

Well I am no kind of a heretic. Everything I believe is orthodox

And I can support it with systematic theologies of which I have many


I did deal with it. I see no force in it at all
But no the passage as a whole does not. You have to prove these things by reading them out from scripture not reading your view into it

If you start with a preconceived notion it is quite likely you Will see what your preconceived notion tells you.










Yes and the us is the faithful in Christ

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”


Christ is the elect

The head of the church

The church is his body

Men are elect only in association with the elect body the church which is in Christ



No that is not it

Chose them to be holy and blameless before him

There was no chosing of men to unconditionally be in Christ
If you don't believe in irresistible Grace then you don't believe in Grace at all. Grace reigns through righteousness. Rom 5:21

that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

Grace reigns is more effective than sin reign unto death.
 
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