Appointed to Eternal Life !

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TomFL

Guest
Um, grace is how we're GIVEN faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc.)
The grace I was referring to is forgiveness of sin, salvation, reception of the spirit, regeneration etc

In any case God has given us the ability to have faith the opportunity and the enablement for faith

There is no evidence at all that God irresistibly infuses faith in anyone

God's initiative can and has been resisted

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

Rom. 1:18 —KJV

and is warned against

Heb. 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb. 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb. 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Heb. 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

truth resisted for

2Th. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So what ?

Grace is not received without faith
So what ? What a affront to the Sovereign Power and Grace of God ! Grace brings Faith, men believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The grace I was referring to is forgiveness of sin, salvation, reception of the spirit, regeneration etc

In any case God has given us the ability to have faith the opportunity and the enablement for faith

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Does it say "the enablement for faith" is the gift of God?
Or does it say "faith" is the gift of God?

Phil. 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Does it say it is given "the enablement for faith"?
Orr does it say it is given "to believe"?

Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Does it say God hath dealt the measure of "the enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that God hath dealt the measure of "faith"?

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Does it say that we "have obtained like precious "enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that we have obtained like precious "faith"?

You don't believe what it ACTUALLY says.
You have to CHANGE it so that you can take credit for part of God's gift.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Does it say "the enablement for faith" is the gift of God?
Or does it say "faith" is the gift of God?

Phil. 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Does it say it is given "the enablement for faith"?
Orr does it say it is given "to believe"?

Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Does it say God hath dealt the measure of "the enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that God hath dealt the measure of "faith"?

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Does it say that we "have obtained like precious "enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that we have obtained like precious "faith"?

You don't believe what it ACTUALLY says.
You have to CHANGE it so that you can take credit for part of God's gift.
Been through this many times

No Eph 2:8 does not state faith is the gift

Rom 12:3 still concerns ministry gifts. Context counts

2Pe 1:1 as Alford , FJB, Barnes note this refers to doctrinal body of truth compromising christianity

Phil. 1:29 —ESV
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake”

There are no verses anywhere that faith is something God irresistibly unilasterally infuses

into men and withhold from others

All Arminians, Provisionist believe God must do something to enable faith whether it is prevenient grace, the conviction of the spirit, the light of revelation, the gospel itself

and thus affirm God grants faith
 
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TomFL

Guest
So what ? What a affront to the Sovereign Power and Grace of God ! Grace brings Faith, men believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace
Yes grace enables faith

But you cannot receive forgivenes of sin

Salvation

reception of the holy Spirit

Regeneration

without faith
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes grace enables faith

But you cannot receive forgivenes of sin

Salvation

reception of the holy Spirit

Regeneration

without faith
You elevate sin and death over Gods Grace that reigns through Righteousness Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace is Irresistible power of God !
 
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TomFL

Guest
You elevate sin and death over Gods Grace that reigns through Righteousness Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace is Irresistible power of God !
You are confused

Grace has been resisted according to scripture

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are confused

Grace has been resisted according to scripture

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
Grace reigns as Sovereign King!
 
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TomFL

Guest
Grace reigns as Sovereign King!
You ignored this

Grace has been resisted according to scripture

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

also

Heb. 10:29 —KJV
“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
 

armylngst

Well-known member
There is no middle ground here. In the Greek, Ephesians 1:3-14 are all one sentence. There are no breaks within, so it is all related. You keep breaking it all up. So the individuals chosen in verse 4 are saved in verse 5. All one sentence. "
4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"" (Young's Literal Translation)
Look at the structure.
Before we can deal with anything else you wrote, we have to deal with this. Look at the structure of Ephesians 1:4 and 1:5. Consider different ways of saying the exact same thing in English. In love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him. That whole "having done [well, foreordained" construction means that everything in that clause (having foreordained us...) comes before 1:4. This is like Paul's writing style. Very intellectual. So, He predestined us to salvation, and chose us to live holy and blameless lives.
I'm not sure why you just don't understand "according to the good pleasure of His will. In love, according to the good pleasure of His will. So, if you asked God what conditions he had in choosing you, he isn't going to say, well not you, because you don't wear striped socks. His answer is, why, I chose in love, according to the good pleasure of my will. When you ask "Because....you felt like it?" Going by what is written here, His answer would be...yes. You speculate things that are not in these verses. He is very clear when it says in love, he predestined, according to the good pleasure of His will. So if there was a condition, it was on Him, and it was love. So obviously He didn't choose Esau because He didn't love him.

Is there a particular reason you are having so much trouble with the English literally translated from the Greek? Having finished his homework, Johnny went to the store, is the same sentence as, Johnny went to the store, having finished his homework. Another rendition, Johnny went to the store, because he had finished his homework. That is not as clear, but it should give you an idea of why you are misreading this whole passage. The understanding is, the condition for Johnny going to the store is finishing his homework, so having finished his homework, he could finally go to the store. So God had to predestine people to come to Christ, to be Christians, before He could choose them to live holy and blameless lives in Christ. I mean, that more than makes sense. Doing in love, according to the good pleasure of His will is also quite clear that there was no catch, there were no conditions.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You ignored this

Grace has been resisted according to scripture

Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

also

Heb. 10:29 —KJV
“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
You ignoring this Grace reigns through righteousness by Jesus Christ Rom 5:21

that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What Christ done is more effective than what adam done.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Before we can deal with anything else you wrote, we have to deal with this. Look at the structure of Ephesians 1:4 and 1:5. Consider different ways of saying the exact same thing in English. In love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him. That whole "having done [well, foreordained" construction means that everything in that clause (having foreordained us...) comes before 1:4. This is like Paul's writing style. Very intellectual. So, He predestined us to salvation, and chose us to live holy and blameless lives.
I'm not sure why you just don't understand "according to the good pleasure of His will. In love, according to the good pleasure of His will. So, if you asked God what conditions he had in choosing you, he isn't going to say, well not you, because you don't wear striped socks. His answer is, why, I chose in love, according to the good pleasure of my will. When you ask "Because....you felt like it?" Going by what is written here, His answer would be...yes. You speculate things that are not in these verses. He is very clear when it says in love, he predestined, according to the good pleasure of His will. So if there was a condition, it was on Him, and it was love. So obviously He didn't choose Esau because He didn't love him.

Is there a particular reason you are having so much trouble with the English literally translated from the Greek? Having finished his homework, Johnny went to the store, is the same sentence as, Johnny went to the store, having finished his homework. Another rendition, Johnny went to the store, because he had finished his homework. That is not as clear, but it should give you an idea of why you are misreading this whole passage. The understanding is, the condition for Johnny going to the store is finishing his homework, so having finished his homework, he could finally go to the store. So God had to predestine people to come to Christ, to be Christians, before He could choose them to live holy and blameless lives in Christ. I mean, that more than makes sense. Doing in love, according to the good pleasure of His will is also quite clear that there was no catch, there were no conditions.
Sorry but it is clear God chose men in Christ to be holy and blameless

The text does not say he chose men toi be in Christ

No he chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless

Repeating your view does nothing to change that
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Sorry but it is clear God chose men in Christ to be holy and blameless

The text does not say he chose men toi be in Christ

No he chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless

Repeating your view does nothing to change that
Yes, that is clear. But it is also clear, by verse 5, that God first chose men to salvation. and having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You keep stating that at one point in time, it wasn't required for those in Christ to be holy and blameless, and then God changed His mind, and chose us in Him to be holy and blameless. You realize that that makes no sense, right. God chose to save them, and through that salvation, that being in Him, to live holy and blameless lives. That is the only way it makes sense. It started with no one saved, God chose to save, and as part of that salvation, set them to live holy and blameless lives.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yes, that is clear. But it is also clear, by verse 5, that God first chose men to salvation. and having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You keep stating that at one point in time, it wasn't required for those in Christ to be holy and blameless, and then God changed His mind, and chose us in Him to be holy and blameless. You realize that that makes no sense, right. God chose to save them, and through that salvation, that being in Him, to live holy and blameless lives. That is the only way it makes sense. It started with no one saved, God chose to save, and as part of that salvation, set them to live holy and blameless lives.
No it is not clear he chosemen unconditional

what is clear is that verse refers to those in Christ as it is those in Christ being addressed

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:5 —ESV
“he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”

and how they got in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”


They were sealed in him (Christ) when they believed
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No it is not clear he chosemen unconditional

what is clear is that verse refers to those in Christ as it is those in Christ being addressed

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:5 —ESV
“he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”

and how they got in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”


They were sealed in him (Christ) when they believed
It's unconditional election before they are born to do good or evil Rom 9:11

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls)
 

armylngst

Well-known member
No it is not clear he chosemen unconditional

what is clear is that verse refers to those in Christ as it is those in Christ being addressed

Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”

Eph. 1:5 —ESV
“he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”

and how they got in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”


They were sealed in him (Christ) when they believed
Grace leads to salvation, and without grace there is no salvation. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. So therefore, anyone who receives God's grace has received it without condition. Those who receive God's grace were chosen before the foundation of the world, to receive God's grace. Since we are talking about God's grace, and grace is the unmerited (without condition) favor of God, then the choice of who receives it, must, by definition, be unconditional. Everything you talk about salvation, is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2, as happening, because God chose and God called through the gospel.

Since you seem to ignore scripture that doesn't agree with you, here it is again: "13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

Young's Literal Translation: "13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
14 to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;
15 so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;
16 and may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who did love us, and did give comfort age-during, and good hope in grace,
17 comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work."

It is quite clear.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Grace leads to salvation, and without grace there is no salvation. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. So therefore, anyone who receives God's grace has received it without condition. Those who receive God's grace were chosen before the foundation of the world, to receive God's grace. Since we are talking about God's grace, and grace is the unmerited (without condition) favor of God, then the choice of who receives it, must, by definition, be unconditional. Everything you talk about salvation, is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2, as happening, because God chose and God called through the gospel.

Since you seem to ignore scripture that doesn't agree with you, here it is again: "13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

Young's Literal Translation: "13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
14 to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;
15 so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;
16 and may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who did love us, and did give comfort age-during, and good hope in grace,
17 comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work."

It is quite clear.
What mans religion dont realize is that Grace just doesnt enable the natural man to perform a condition to get hiself saved, no, Grace is a Spiritual Principle of life which enlivens dead sinners Eph 2:5

5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Its a quickening Grace, that word quickened suzóopoieó:

to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

Its a undeserved quickening with Christ !

Frankly its impossible for any sinner Christ died for and rose again for, to remain in Spiritual death, they shall be made alive in Gods determined time with life with Christ. hence saved by Grace !
 
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