T
TomFL
Guest
So what ?You don't know what reigns mean. The word is basileuō:
metaph. to exercise the highest influence, to control
Grace is not received without faith
So what ?You don't know what reigns mean. The word is basileuō:
metaph. to exercise the highest influence, to control
So what ?
Grace is not received without faith
The grace I was referring to is forgiveness of sin, salvation, reception of the spirit, regeneration etcUm, grace is how we're GIVEN faith (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc.)
So what ? What a affront to the Sovereign Power and Grace of God ! Grace brings Faith, men believe through Grace Acts 18:27So what ?
Grace is not received without faith
The grace I was referring to is forgiveness of sin, salvation, reception of the spirit, regeneration etc
In any case God has given us the ability to have faith the opportunity and the enablement for faith
Been through this many timesEph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Does it say "the enablement for faith" is the gift of God?
Or does it say "faith" is the gift of God?
Phil. 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Does it say it is given "the enablement for faith"?
Orr does it say it is given "to believe"?
Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Does it say God hath dealt the measure of "the enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that God hath dealt the measure of "faith"?
2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Does it say that we "have obtained like precious "enablement for faith"?
Or does it say that we have obtained like precious "faith"?
You don't believe what it ACTUALLY says.
You have to CHANGE it so that you can take credit for part of God's gift.
Yes grace enables faithSo what ? What a affront to the Sovereign Power and Grace of God ! Grace brings Faith, men believe through Grace Acts 18:27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace
You elevate sin and death over Gods Grace that reigns through Righteousness Rom 5:21Yes grace enables faith
But you cannot receive forgivenes of sin
Salvation
reception of the holy Spirit
Regeneration
without faith
You are confusedYou elevate sin and death over Gods Grace that reigns through Righteousness Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace is Irresistible power of God !
Grace reigns as Sovereign King!You are confused
Grace has been resisted according to scripture
Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
You ignored thisGrace reigns as Sovereign King!
Before we can deal with anything else you wrote, we have to deal with this. Look at the structure of Ephesians 1:4 and 1:5. Consider different ways of saying the exact same thing in English. In love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him. That whole "having done [well, foreordained" construction means that everything in that clause (having foreordained us...) comes before 1:4. This is like Paul's writing style. Very intellectual. So, He predestined us to salvation, and chose us to live holy and blameless lives.There is no middle ground here. In the Greek, Ephesians 1:3-14 are all one sentence. There are no breaks within, so it is all related. You keep breaking it all up. So the individuals chosen in verse 4 are saved in verse 5. All one sentence. "
4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"" (Young's Literal Translation)
Look at the structure.
You ignoring this Grace reigns through righteousness by Jesus Christ Rom 5:21You ignored this
Grace has been resisted according to scripture
Acts 7:51 —KJV
“¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”
also
Heb. 10:29 —KJV
“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
Sorry but it is clear God chose men in Christ to be holy and blamelessBefore we can deal with anything else you wrote, we have to deal with this. Look at the structure of Ephesians 1:4 and 1:5. Consider different ways of saying the exact same thing in English. In love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him. That whole "having done [well, foreordained" construction means that everything in that clause (having foreordained us...) comes before 1:4. This is like Paul's writing style. Very intellectual. So, He predestined us to salvation, and chose us to live holy and blameless lives.
I'm not sure why you just don't understand "according to the good pleasure of His will. In love, according to the good pleasure of His will. So, if you asked God what conditions he had in choosing you, he isn't going to say, well not you, because you don't wear striped socks. His answer is, why, I chose in love, according to the good pleasure of my will. When you ask "Because....you felt like it?" Going by what is written here, His answer would be...yes. You speculate things that are not in these verses. He is very clear when it says in love, he predestined, according to the good pleasure of His will. So if there was a condition, it was on Him, and it was love. So obviously He didn't choose Esau because He didn't love him.
Is there a particular reason you are having so much trouble with the English literally translated from the Greek? Having finished his homework, Johnny went to the store, is the same sentence as, Johnny went to the store, having finished his homework. Another rendition, Johnny went to the store, because he had finished his homework. That is not as clear, but it should give you an idea of why you are misreading this whole passage. The understanding is, the condition for Johnny going to the store is finishing his homework, so having finished his homework, he could finally go to the store. So God had to predestine people to come to Christ, to be Christians, before He could choose them to live holy and blameless lives in Christ. I mean, that more than makes sense. Doing in love, according to the good pleasure of His will is also quite clear that there was no catch, there were no conditions.
Yes, that is clear. But it is also clear, by verse 5, that God first chose men to salvation. and having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You keep stating that at one point in time, it wasn't required for those in Christ to be holy and blameless, and then God changed His mind, and chose us in Him to be holy and blameless. You realize that that makes no sense, right. God chose to save them, and through that salvation, that being in Him, to live holy and blameless lives. That is the only way it makes sense. It started with no one saved, God chose to save, and as part of that salvation, set them to live holy and blameless lives.Sorry but it is clear God chose men in Christ to be holy and blameless
The text does not say he chose men toi be in Christ
No he chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless
Repeating your view does nothing to change that
No it is not clear he chosemen unconditionalYes, that is clear. But it is also clear, by verse 5, that God first chose men to salvation. and having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You keep stating that at one point in time, it wasn't required for those in Christ to be holy and blameless, and then God changed His mind, and chose us in Him to be holy and blameless. You realize that that makes no sense, right. God chose to save them, and through that salvation, that being in Him, to live holy and blameless lives. That is the only way it makes sense. It started with no one saved, God chose to save, and as part of that salvation, set them to live holy and blameless lives.
It's unconditional election before they are born to do good or evil Rom 9:11No it is not clear he chosemen unconditional
what is clear is that verse refers to those in Christ as it is those in Christ being addressed
Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Eph. 1:5 —ESV
“he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
and how they got in Christ
Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
They were sealed in him (Christ) when they believed
Grace leads to salvation, and without grace there is no salvation. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. So therefore, anyone who receives God's grace has received it without condition. Those who receive God's grace were chosen before the foundation of the world, to receive God's grace. Since we are talking about God's grace, and grace is the unmerited (without condition) favor of God, then the choice of who receives it, must, by definition, be unconditional. Everything you talk about salvation, is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2, as happening, because God chose and God called through the gospel.No it is not clear he chosemen unconditional
what is clear is that verse refers to those in Christ as it is those in Christ being addressed
Eph. 1:1 —ESV
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, ¶ To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Eph. 1:5 —ESV
“he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
and how they got in Christ
Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
They were sealed in him (Christ) when they believed
What mans religion dont realize is that Grace just doesnt enable the natural man to perform a condition to get hiself saved, no, Grace is a Spiritual Principle of life which enlivens dead sinners Eph 2:5Grace leads to salvation, and without grace there is no salvation. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. So therefore, anyone who receives God's grace has received it without condition. Those who receive God's grace were chosen before the foundation of the world, to receive God's grace. Since we are talking about God's grace, and grace is the unmerited (without condition) favor of God, then the choice of who receives it, must, by definition, be unconditional. Everything you talk about salvation, is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2, as happening, because God chose and God called through the gospel.
Since you seem to ignore scripture that doesn't agree with you, here it is again: "13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."
Young's Literal Translation: "13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
14 to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;
15 so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;
16 and may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who did love us, and did give comfort age-during, and good hope in grace,
17 comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work."
It is quite clear.