Are there Buddhists here?

CrowCross

Well-known member
No there are not. There are prophecies about the Jewish Messiah. The name "Jesus Christ" is not mentioned in the Old Testament at all.

The Jews reject Jesus precisely because of those OT prophecies. Jesus did not:
  • Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
  • Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
  • Usher in an era of world peace (Isaiah 2:4)
  • Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel (Zechariah 14:9).
Jesus fulfilled some, but not all, of the prophecies. At best that makes Him a partial Messiah, not the complete Messiah. The Jewish rejection of Jesus is perfectly reasonable.
The clock was stopped....

Much to say about that topic.

BTW....this bagan to happen in 1948.
  • Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
 

Hark

Well-known member
Strict Calvinists believe that. The elect can sin as much as they want and will still be saved. Others can do as much good as they want and still be damned. That is the kind of religion that the Buddha called "not useful".
Jesus Christ does not teach that but warns against it as Paul, Peter, James, & John does.
The start of the path is on faith. As you progress on the path you can check that the map you have is correct. Occasionally the cloud thins and you can dimly make out the top of the mountain you are climbing. That is enough to give me confidence that I am on the right path.
You made a comparison of Buddhism to other religions as if other religions required blind faith but Buddhism does not. So I reckon you need to drop that art as being true about Buddhism when it does require blind faith.

If you had not turned away from the Lord because of errant Christians, you could have studied the scripture in the KJV with Him to find out that those Christians were astray and did not understand His words as they had thought they did.

You have to acknowledge that for Christianity since you acknowledge that for all people in Buddhism.
Primarily a good teacher. That and experience.

People long for big thrills. Peak experiences. Some people come to Zen expecting that Enlightenment will be the Ultimate Peak Experience. The Mother of All Peak Experiences. But real enlightenment is the most ordinary of the ordinary. Once I had an amazing vision. I saw myself transported through time and space. Millions, no, billions, trillions, Godzillions of years passed. Not figuratively, but literally. Whizzed by. I found myself at the very rim of time and space, a vast giant being composed of the living minds and bodies of every thing that ever was. It was an incredibly moving experience. Exhilarating. I was high for weeks. Finally I told Nishijima Sensei about it . He said it was nonsense. Just my imagination. I can't tell you how that made me feel. Imagination? This was as real an experience as any I've ever had. I just about cried. Later on that day I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment.​
You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that. Countless teachers would have interpreted my experience as a merging of my Atman with God, as a portent of great and wonderful things, would have praised my spiritual growth and given me pointers on how to go even further. And I would have been suckered right in to that, let me tell you! Woulda fallen for it hook line and sinker, boy howdy. If a teacher doesn't shatter your illusions he's doing you no favors at all.​
So you do know what I am talking about for how meditation can bring a supernatural phenomenon or a real like dream state that if you can have a vision like that and be knocked down by a Buddhist teacher, then what about visions of past lives? It was real vision to you, but he shot you down just because he did not had a vision like that, but had eaten a tangerine like you did and so he can call that enlightenment?
Boredom is what you need. Merging with the Mind of God at the Edge of the Universe, that's excitement. That's what we're all into this Zen thing for, right? Eating tangerines? Come on, dude! What could be more boring than eating a tangerine?​
-- Zen is Boring, Brad Warner​
Yet you got that vision through meditation which Buddhism taught you to do to recall your former lives? Is that correct? Isn't that exciting to recall your former lives or not?
In your immediately past life you might have been in one of the (temporary) hells, an animal, a human being, an alien on a different planet or in one of the (temporary) heavens. There are plenty of places where today's humans might have lived their previous lives.
Amazing how that teacher of your shot down your vison so readily when Buddhism allows for that.
The ancient Indians worked out something that the Bible authors never did; that stars are actually very distant suns, with their own planets. You will find this in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain scriptures. For example, in the Vimalakirtinirdesa sutra the Bodhisattva Vimalakirti feeds 80,000 people from a single bowl of rice fetched from a distant planet. See VKN chapter 10.
Is it true that the legend of Buddha was that his first words out of his mouth as a baby was " I shall not be born again"? This speaker against Buddhism has some things to share that I wonder if you can confirm or correct what he is sharing in that full but short about 7 minutes video.

 

Hark

Well-known member
No there are not. There are prophecies about the Jewish Messiah. The name "Jesus Christ" is not mentioned in the Old Testament at all.

The Jews reject Jesus precisely because of those OT prophecies. Jesus did not:
  • Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
  • Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
  • Usher in an era of world peace (Isaiah 2:4)
  • Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel (Zechariah 14:9).
Jesus fulfilled some, but not all, of the prophecies. At best that makes Him a partial Messiah, not the complete Messiah. The Jewish rejection of Jesus is perfectly reasonable.
Except the prophetic & yet future part where the Jews were in mourning for what they had done to their returning Messiah Whom they have pierced which is referring to having crucified Him on the cross. That battle is at the end of the great tribulation that is coming on the whole earth.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Jesus Christ does not teach that but warns against it as Paul, Peter, James, & John does.
Jesus and the Buddha agree on this point.

You made a comparison of Buddhism to other religions as if other religions required blind faith but Buddhism does not. So I reckon you need to drop that art as being true about Buddhism when it does require blind faith.
You need faith at the start, otherwise you would never do anything. Once started on the path the faith is no longer blind. By the end of the path there is no faith left; you know.

So you do know what I am talking about for how meditation can bring a supernatural phenomenon or a real like dream state that if you can have a vision like that and be knocked down by a Buddhist teacher, then what about visions of past lives? It was real vision to you, but he shot you down just because he did not had a vision like that, but had eaten a tangerine like you did and so he can call that enlightenment?
I have not bothered with remembering my past lives. That requires years of practice in Vipassana meditation. For the moment I prefer Samatha meditation, a different technique.

Is it true that the legend of Buddha was that his first words out of his mouth as a baby was " I shall not be born again"?
That is what the legend of the Buddha says. I am perfectly happy with the word "legend". Many famous men have stories attached to them, often around their birth. Just read Suetonius, 'The Twelve Caesars' for many examples.

The Buddha (re)discovered some techniques. What is important is that those techniques work. The details of his life are less important. You might want to bear in mind that we have no eye-witness accounts of Jesus' birth either and again there are legends attached to that event.

Humans seem to need miracles around the birth of any great man.

This speaker against Buddhism has some things to share that I wonder if you can confirm or correct what he is sharing in that full but short about 7 minutes video.
Nirvana is not what he thinks it is.

Samsara does not have the slightest distinction from nirvana.​
Nirvana does not have the slightest distinction from samsara.​
Whatever is the end of nirvana, that is the end of samsara.​
There is not even a very subtle slight distinction between the two.​
-- Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20​

The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35. He died age 80. For 45 years he was simultaneously in nirvana and in the ordinary world (samsara). Nirvana is not separate from the world we all live in. Nirvana is not 'up there'; it is here and now. Many people misunderstand nirvana; your speaker is not alone.

He is wrong about suffering as well. Suffering exists, true. The Four Noble Truths are organised as a medical diagnosis to cure suffering.
  1. Suffering exists.
  2. Selfish desire causes suffering.
  3. Stopping selfish desire stops suffering.
  4. The Eightfold Path stops selfish desire.
Following the path stops desire. Stopping desire stops suffering. Buddhism teaches us how to avoid suffering.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Jesus and the Buddha agree on this point.
Then do not listen to Christians that err, but to Jesus. Don't turn away from Jesus because many Christians today err when He prophesied that many will fall away from the faith in the latter days before He appears, and you have because of erring Christians judging you. You need to forgive them for they know not what they do. If you do not walk away from Buddha because of those who err & do evil, then come back to Jesus. He died for you & risen from the dead proving what He has said whereas Buddha could not.

Someone could lie about Buddha and say.. I am Buddha and I was reborn after all.

But anyone claiming to be Jesus Christ will not be able to fool people for very long when He shall appear as the Bridegroom in collecting those ready as found abiding in Him to take them Home to the Marriage Supper above and come back with them at the end of the great tribulation to do battle with the armies marching against Jerusalem to set up His kingdom on earth as the King of kings for a thousand years.
You need faith at the start, otherwise you would never do anything. Once started on the path the faith is no longer blind. By the end of the path there is no faith left; you know.
When our believing in Jesus Christ is the work of God the Father, thus by faith in Jesus Chris, we had received the promise of the Spirit is why you are still saved even though some errant Christians overthrew your faith in Him; He is faithful for He still abides. So while you are seeking enlightenment or having obtained it, learn about Jesus Christ & His words rather than going off of the words of erring Christians.
I have not bothered with remembering my past lives. That requires years of practice in Vipassana meditation. For the moment I prefer Samatha meditation, a different technique.
Still a new age concept for how some will receive something by revelations or a phenomenon or loss of self control. There are those who teach it into Christianity like seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation by leading them back to a "blue room" away from distractions and noise and just meditate, blank out their thoughts, and just focus on receiving the Holy Spirit, and apparently, the phenomenon comes but that was not the Holy Spirit. No one is prepped like that in order to receive the promise, but by believing in Jesus Christ is how the promise of the Spirit is received and that is by faith in Jesus Christ; not by sight of feeling a spirit being received like a medium in contacting spirits as they get information from spirits about their past lives and such.. One can say that is what happens to those in Buddhism in "remembering their past lives" which is not really their lives at all.
That is what the legend of the Buddha says. I am perfectly happy with the word "legend". Many famous men have stories attached to them, often around their birth. Just read Suetonius, 'The Twelve Caesars' for many examples.

The Buddha (re)discovered some techniques. What is important is that those techniques work. The details of his life are less important. You might want to bear in mind that we have no eye-witness accounts of Jesus' birth either and again there are legends attached to that event.

Humans seem to need miracles around the birth of any great man.
Thanks for the confirmation and clarification.
Nirvana is not what he thinks it is.

Samsara does not have the slightest distinction from nirvana.​
Nirvana does not have the slightest distinction from samsara.​
Whatever is the end of nirvana, that is the end of samsara.​
There is not even a very subtle slight distinction between the two.​
-- Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20​

The Buddha attained nirvana at age 35. He died age 80. For 45 years he was simultaneously in nirvana and in the ordinary world (samsara). Nirvana is not separate from the world we all live in. Nirvana is not 'up there'; it is here and now. Many people misunderstand nirvana; your speaker is not alone.​

Can you confirm this search result? "Theravada Buddhism understands samsara and nirvana to be opposites. In Mahayana Buddhism, however, with its focus on inherent Buddha Nature, both samsara and nirvana are seen as natural manifestations of the empty clarity of the mind."

Is it true there are 2 kinds of Buddhism? How do you know you are in the right one since they both cannot be right?
He is wrong about suffering as well. Suffering exists, true. The Four Noble Truths are organised as a medical diagnosis to cure suffering.
  1. Suffering exists.
  2. Selfish desire causes suffering.
  3. Stopping selfish desire stops suffering.
  4. The Eightfold Path stops selfish desire.
Following the path stops desire. Stopping desire stops suffering. Buddhism teaches us how to avoid suffering.
Is it true that Buddhism came from Hinduism?

What do you say about this article regarding the differences in meditation between the 2? Are they accurate or is your form of Buddhism have you see it differently? Difference Between Hindu And Buddhist meditation I am open to the possibility that the article may be wrong altogether in the differences.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Someone could lie about Buddha and say.. I am Buddha and I was reborn after all.
People who do that generally know enough not to claim not to be Shakyamuni Buddha, but to be the Maitreya, the future Buddha. Buddhism is founded by a Buddha and then gradually declines. Eventually it disappears and is re-established by the next Buddha. Maitreya Buddha was predicted for between 5,000 and 10,000 years after Shakyamini's death.

Still a new age concept
Hardly. Meditation has been around for a very long time in the East. It has been present in Christianity from near the beginning, and those denominations who have retained monastic orders still have their versions of meditation. That is mainly the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches. Protestant Churches have mostly lost their monastic orders and so have lost their meditation practices. They are the ones who see meditation as "new". It is only new because of their earlier loss of the former Christian practice.

For a layman, Saying the Jesus Prayer is a good place to start on Christian meditation.

Can you confirm this search result? "Theravada Buddhism understands samsara and nirvana to be opposites. In Mahayana Buddhism, however, with its focus on inherent Buddha Nature, both samsara and nirvana are seen as natural manifestations of the empty clarity of the mind."
Yes. My quote was from Nagarjuna, a Mahayana writer. As with Christianity, there are different schools within Buddhism with different approaches. The goal is the same, but they follow different paths up the mountain.

Is it true there are 2 kinds of Buddhism? How do you know you are in the right one since they both cannot be right?
There are a lot more than two schools of Buddhism. How many different denominations of Christianity are there? Buddhism aims to climb a mountain right to the peak. You would not expect the route up the east face to be the same as the route up the west face. The routes are different, but they all lead to the same peak.

Different routes up the mountain suit different people. Tibetan Buddhism uses a lot of visualisation techniques. I tried those techniques, but they didn't work for me. I prefer simpler techniques: satipatthana from the Theravada and zazen from Zen Buddhism.

Is it true that Buddhism came from Hinduism?
Yes. The Buddha grew up in an early Hindu environment and learned many yoga techniques in the six years between leaving home and becoming enlightened. The useful techniques he kept, the non-useful he discarded. For example he tried starvation as a technique before his enlightenment. That was an extreme he rejected in favour of his Middle Way.

What do you say about this article regarding the differences in meditation between the 2? Are they accurate or is your form of Buddhism have you see it differently? Difference Between Hindu And Buddhist meditation I am open to the possibility that the article may be wrong altogether in the differences.
I know less about Hinduism. It is reasonably accurate, though brief, about Buddhist meditation. Buddhism uses a subset of the various Hindu techniques, together with some added later, such as Zen koans.

Buddhism can be flexible about adding things. Here is a Zen story:

Two monks, Tanzan and Ekido, were walking down a muddy street in the city. They came on a lovely young girl dressed in fine silks, who was afraid to cross because of all the mud.​
"Come on, girl," said Tanzan. And he picked her up in his arms, and carried her across.​
The two monks did not speak again till nightfall. Then, when they had returned to the monastery, Ekido couldn't keep quiet any longer.​
"Monks shouldn't go near girls," he said, "certainly not beautiful ones like that one! Why did you do it?"​
"My dear fellow," said Tanzan. "I put that girl down, way back in the city. It's you who are still carrying her!"​

A typical Zen story, with a moral. Tanzan lived from 1819 to 1892.
 

Hark

Well-known member
People who do that generally know enough not to claim not to be Shakyamuni Buddha, but to be the Maitreya, the future Buddha. Buddhism is founded by a Buddha and then gradually declines. Eventually it disappears and is re-established by the next Buddha. Maitreya Buddha was predicted for between 5,000 and 10,000 years after Shakyamini's death.
Have you applied the same level of skepticism to Buddhism as you are doing to Christianity ( albeit, you said Christians offended you for why you had left, correct? ) If it has been around for a long time, then would that not suggest a failure of Buddhism if another Buddha comes?
Hardly. Meditation has been around for a very long time in the East. It has been present in Christianity from near the beginning, and those denominations who have retained monastic orders still have their versions of meditation. That is mainly the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches. Protestant Churches have mostly lost their monastic orders and so have lost their meditation practices. They are the ones who see meditation as "new". It is only new because of their earlier loss of the former Christian practice.
There is a difference between meditating on His words than meditating the way the world does it; like some deep trance; some form of emptiness of self and thought, some sense of receiving... mediums do that in contacting spirits. That is why that sort of meditating s not of Him. That is why Khundalini with its uncontrollable laughter can be found in Christianity by false prophets putting the emphasis on seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. I assure, you that although they pray to the Holy Spirit ( which is not Biblically taught to do for He is the Comforter and not up there at that throne of grace as a means to approach God the Father by in prayer since only Jesus answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the son for answers to prayers per John 14:13-14 therefore Jesus is the only way to come to the father by ( John 14:6.

That is the only way sinners can depart from their practices in coming to the Father not by way of spirits but by the only way of the Son.
For a layman, Saying the Jesus Prayer is a good place to start on Christian meditation.
Yes, but again, it is an active mind in praying rather than an emptying thereof. ( I am not Orthodox by the way so I prefer to speak of Jesus rather than any church. I'd point you to Him, not to a church for the truth. )
Yes. My quote was from Nagarjuna, a Mahayana writer. As with Christianity, there are different schools within Buddhism with different approaches. The goal is the same, but they follow different paths up the mountain.
Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. 7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice, even the Lord, the hope of their fathers.

Don't let Christians that err turn you away from your resting place to climbing mountains any more. May He remind you of your first love.
There are a lot more than two schools of Buddhism. How many different denominations of Christianity are there? Buddhism aims to climb a mountain right to the peak. You would not expect the route up the east face to be the same as the route up the west face. The routes are different, but they all lead to the same peak.
Yeah but His words can be found to correcting a lot of errors in those denomination for why He had prophesied that by the time He returns as the Bridegroom, He wonders if He will find faith in all the earth.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

You saw what had happened to you because of verse 18. Please come back to Him and ask him in prayer for help to see the truth from the lies that turned you away from Him.
Different routes up the mountain suit different people. Tibetan Buddhism uses a lot of visualisation techniques. I tried those techniques, but they didn't work for me. I prefer simpler techniques: satipatthana from the Theravada and zazen from Zen Buddhism.
Does that not make you wonder what enlightenment is being achieved by those different paths? Can't be the same, right?
Yes. The Buddha grew up in an early Hindu environment and learned many yoga techniques in the six years between leaving home and becoming enlightened. The useful techniques he kept, the non-useful he discarded. For example he tried starvation as a technique before his enlightenment. That was an extreme he rejected in favour of his Middle Way.
American Indians has something similar regarding starvation, heat & smoking in order to get a vision. Some even dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come whereby a spirit of drunkenness comes over them for why they took to alcohol. Believers that believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation is why they are "drunk in the spirit", losing self control, and even having holy laughter of what is found in Khundalini. Jesus warned against false prophets in verses 13-20 for why they are falling down in verses 24-27 in Matthew 7:13-27 in spite of the many signs and wonders in verses 21-23.. Paul warned against it 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & the apostle John warned against it per 1 John 4:1-6.
I know less about Hinduism. It is reasonably accurate, though brief, about Buddhist meditation. Buddhism uses a subset of the various Hindu techniques, together with some added later, such as Zen koans.
if that methodology for achieving a result can be found from Hinduism to Buddhism and all over the world in the cults & occults, then you should reconsider since evil has been befalling participants in all of them, including Christians that do not meditate on His words but use that same kind of worldly meditation to achieve or obtain a result.
Buddhism can be flexible about adding things. Here is a Zen story:

Two monks, Tanzan and Ekido, were walking down a muddy street in the city. They came on a lovely young girl dressed in fine silks, who was afraid to cross because of all the mud.​
"Come on, girl," said Tanzan. And he picked her up in his arms, and carried her across.​
The two monks did not speak again till nightfall. Then, when they had returned to the monastery, Ekido couldn't keep quiet any longer.​
"Monks shouldn't go near girls," he said, "certainly not beautiful ones like that one! Why did you do it?"​
"My dear fellow," said Tanzan. "I put that girl down, way back in the city. It's you who are still carrying her!"​

A typical Zen story, with a moral. Tanzan lived from 1819 to 1892.
Christianity cannot be flexible for it departs from faith to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. That is why so many believers have gone astray when their focus in coming to the father is no longer on the son, but on the Holy Spirit as if He is the Go To Father by when He is in us still pointing believers to go to the Son in coming to God the Father by but not very many are heeding His words for why they are falling..
 

rossum

Well-known member
Have you applied the same level of skepticism to Buddhism as you are doing to Christianity
Basically yes. In Buddhism I rely on myself to work to attain enlightenment. In Christianity I relied on God to save me. I am a lot more sure that I exist than that God exists, so I go with the more likely prospect.

If it has been around for a long time, then would that not suggest a failure of Buddhism if another Buddha comes?
Everything changes and everything is impermanent. That includes Buddhism; it changes and it is impermanent. When it has disappeared a new Buddha will be born, will rediscover the Four Noble Truths and will re-establish Buddhism again. Then the cycle repeats.

That is the only way sinners can depart from their practices in coming to the Father not by way of spirits but by the only way of the Son.
Sin is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. Your argument here is irrelevant.

Don't let Christians that err turn you away from your resting place to climbing mountains any more. May He remind you of your first love.
But which Christians are the erring ones? Each denomination claims that it is correct and the others are in error. Catholics say Protestants are in error; Protestants say Catholics are in error. Buddhism says, "Try things and follow what works for you." That works for me.

Christianity cannot be flexible for it departs from faith to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
If true that would be a major fault. The world changes and religions need to change as well. Do Christians still kill witches? They used to, as the Bible said. Do Christians still keep slaves? They used to as the Bible allowed.

Luckily for modern followers of Wicca and the descendants of former slaves, Christianity does change.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Basically yes. In Buddhism I rely on myself to work to attain enlightenment. In Christianity I relied on God to save me. I am a lot more sure that I exist than that God exists, so I go with the more likely prospect.
Being imperfect, I fail to see how any human can achieve perfection. I look to my Maker & my Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, to do that.
Everything changes and everything is impermanent. That includes Buddhism; it changes and it is impermanent. When it has disappeared a new Buddha will be born, will rediscover the Four Noble Truths and will re-establish Buddhism again. Then the cycle repeats.
So the never ending story.
Sin is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. Your argument here is irrelevant.
You can call it evil; still the same.
But which Christians are the erring ones? Each denomination claims that it is correct and the others are in error. Catholics say Protestants are in error; Protestants say Catholics are in error. Buddhism says, "Try things and follow what works for you." That works for me.
You should have just followed Jesus in trusting Him as your personal Good shepherd in understanding His words.
If true that would be a major fault. The world changes and religions need to change as well.
So the goal of enlightenment changes as does meditation. If you do not see anything wrong with that picture, then there is no truth in Buddhism, because it changes with the wind.
Do Christians still kill witches? They used to, as the Bible said. Do Christians still keep slaves? They used to as the Bible allowed.
John 16:1-3 proves that Jesus did not teach that. Calvin had thought it was okay to execute a heretic but he was wrong there too.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
Luckily for modern followers of Wicca and the descendants of former slaves, Christianity does change.
Actually erring Christians were not following Jesus when they had executed witches. This is what Jesus said to do to our enemies.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Makes me wonder how well you knew Jesus Christ before you were offended and turned away from Him by erring Christians.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Being imperfect, I fail to see how any human can achieve perfection.
The Buddha did it. Others have done it. I can see that it is possible. Difficult, but possible.

So the goal of enlightenment changes as does meditation.
Of course. There are many different paths up the mountain. You do not have to be Buddhist to climb it, it is just that Buddhism has better maps of the path than some other religions.

Calvin had thought it was okay to execute a heretic but he was wrong there too.
Christians were executing heretics long before Calvin. You might want to read up about the Albigensian Crusade.
 

Hark

Well-known member
The Buddha did it. Others have done it. I can see that it is possible. Difficult, but possible.
Did Buddha came back spiritually and say he had achieved it? But I say unto you that Christ has risen from the dead and seen by many witnesses for why Christianity and the Good News exists today and for what is coming; the end of death altogether.

1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Of course. There are many different paths up the mountain. You do not have to be Buddhist to climb it, it is just that Buddhism has better maps of the path than some other religions.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There is rest in Jesus Christ; no climbing any mountains. That is why little children are free to come to Him for all they can do is take Him at His word by trusting Him. That is how we enter in by believing in Him.

Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Christians were executing heretics long before Calvin. You might want to read up about the Albigensian Crusade.
Doesn't mean Jesus had taught it. That is the difference between following Jesus & His words rather than erring Christians.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

We are the ones to get killed, we are not to kill those who hate us. Indeed, during the coming great tribulation, believers are not allowed to kill or take captive anyone that opposes them even though He has warned everyone that taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the new world order will go to the lake of fire. Of all times one would think you would be allowed to kill because those sinners cannt be saved that has the mark, it would be then, but no. Vengeance is His.

Revelation 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So Christians killing in His name in those crusades were not doing God's service at all since they are not allowed to do it during the great tribulation.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Did Buddha came back spiritually and say he had achieved it?
Coming back would have been a sign of failure. Even coming back as a god would have been a sign of failure. The Buddha was not reborn. The whole point of Buddhism is to avoid being reborn.

But I say unto you that Christ has risen from the dead and seen by many witnesses for why Christianity and the Good News exists today and for what is coming; the end of death altogether.
However the end of death (Christian version) is not the end of suffering.

[The Buddha said:] "The Noble Truth of Suffering, monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering; separation from the loved is suffering; not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering." (emphasis added)​
-- Samyutta Nikaya, 56.11​

Christians in heaven are eternally separated from those that they love in hell: "love your neighbour as yourself." That is eternal suffering.

Doesn't mean Jesus had taught it. That is the difference between following Jesus & His words rather than erring Christians.
Jesus did not kill anyone during His time on earth, but His Father is very different. How many people does God kill and order to be killed? "You shall not allow a witch to live" is in the Bible. How many pregnant women drowned in Noah's flood? A God who kills unborn children wholesale is not my idea of a loving or just God.

Maybe those Christian crusaders were following the OT version of God rather than Jesus?

Certainly humans are imperfect and so do not always follow the best in their various religions -- the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar for example. With the Abrahamic religions, it is the Abrahamic God Himself who does not follow the best. "You shall not kill" is common to all three, but God ignores that when convenient to His purposes.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Coming back would have been a sign of failure. Even coming back as a god would have been a sign of failure. The Buddha was not reborn. The whole point of Buddhism is to avoid being reborn.
Then there is no proof that Buddha has accomplished it since we can say that about anyone else not a Buddhist in that they have not come back. Still comes across as blind faith.
However the end of death (Christian version) is not the end of suffering.

[The Buddha said:] "The Noble Truth of Suffering, monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering; separation from the loved is suffering; not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering." (emphasis added)​
-- Samyutta Nikaya, 56.11​

Christians in heaven are eternally separated from those that they love in hell: "love your neighbour as yourself." That is eternal suffering.
Sin reaches its full bloom after death in that it separates the sinner from all that is good & God so those loved ones will be unrecognizable. I am sure you have heard it said from other people to the ones they love " I do not know you any more. "

I do not see any thing about how you will be with your loved ones in Buddhism.
Jesus did not kill anyone during His time on earth, but His Father is very different. How many people does God kill and order to be killed? "You shall not allow a witch to live" is in the Bible. How many pregnant women drowned in Noah's flood? A God who kills unborn children wholesale is not my idea of a loving or just God.
God has the right to judge sinners with death like the global flood.

God has the right to judge unrepentant believers & former believers with death for having gone astray by being left behind to face what is coming on the earth and the coming great tribulation afterwards even though their spirits are with the Lord after they die.
Maybe those Christian crusaders were following the OT version of God rather than Jesus?
Doesn't matter how or why they did it. They were not following Jesus & His words.
Certainly humans are imperfect and so do not always follow the best in their various religions -- the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar for example. With the Abrahamic religions, it is the Abrahamic God Himself who does not follow the best. "You shall not kill" is common to all three, but God ignores that when convenient to His purposes.
The wages of sin is death. If you cannot understand that then the wages of evil is death.

For the Christians, anything on that foundation that defiles their temple, they will die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation. Those abiding in Him in truth & His love will be resurrected, even the living, as transformed to be received by Him before that fire comes on the earth and the following great tribulation after that.

I am hoping the Lord will intervene in your case to restore the joy of your salvation before He, as the Bridegroom, comes.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Then there is no proof that Buddha has accomplished it since we can say that about anyone else not a Buddhist in that they have not come back. Still comes across as blind faith.
The proof is in the pudding: Buddhists really are happier.

I do not see any thing about how you will be with your loved ones in Buddhism.
You were not paying attention above. Buddhism is a universalist religion; everyone attains nirvana eventually.

God has the right to judge sinners with death like the global flood.
What sins had all those unborn children whose pregnant mothers were drowned committed? What were those unborn judged for? Even the Argentine Junta was better than your God. When they wanted to kill a pregnant woman, they kept her in the prison hospital until she had given birth and only then killed her. Do you seriously want me to respect a God who cannot even rise to the moral level of a military Junta?

How is killing the unborn either loving or just? You claim both for your God, but His actions speak louder.

The wages of sin is death. If you cannot understand that then the wages of evil is death.
No, death is the result of birth. My scriptures are not the same as yours.
 

Hark

Well-known member
The proof is in the pudding: Buddhists really are happier.
They skipped over my friend that began hearing voices and no Buddhist, neither his teacher, would help him. He is not happier.
You were not paying attention above. Buddhism is a universalist religion; everyone attains nirvana eventually.
In regards to my friend, no.. I doubt it.

Since Buddhism came out of Hinduism, I would say everybody is making up their own definition of enlightenment and meditation that only proves they are not really followers of Buddha. They could even go back to Hinduism and then what?
What sins had all those unborn children whose pregnant mothers were drowned committed? What were those unborn judged for? Even the Argentine Junta was better than your God. When they wanted to kill a pregnant woman, they kept her in the prison hospital until she had given birth and only then killed her. Do you seriously want me to respect a God who cannot even rise to the moral level of a military Junta?
So why don't you blame Buddha for all the evils in the world?

God made a decree that those who bless Israel shall be blessed and those who cursed Israel shall be cursed.

God also foreknew what would happen if the babies found out they were adopted, research their families, renew their evil practice even if it is sacrificing the newborns on the altar of that other "god". Really think they should continue as a people when they corrupt others around them to do the same? And yet what had happened when Israel did not kill off the Philistines like they were supposed to? Every time Israel sinned as a nation against God, they suffer punishment where the nations are overthrown.

There are some Jews whom had believed that the sins of the fathers are carried over unto the children so that their proclivity to those sins and abomination would recur when they grow older.

What does Buddha say about evil people? Were they born that way? Did they do evil in their previous lives for why they were reborn and continue to get worse & worse? Hardly the reality of Buddhism can be true when majority of people are getting worse and worse so that it will never really truly end for everyone when you see how everything is getting worse and worse.
How is killing the unborn either loving or just? You claim both for your God, but His actions speak louder.
He is God. He knows all things; He is just when executing judgment.
No, death is the result of birth. My scriptures are not the same as yours.
Death is a result of sin aka evil.

If you believed that God judged the world by a global flood because every thought & intent of their hearts was evil continually, then God has a right to judge thru out history in working towards the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Did you know Buddhism has their own global flood legend? Here it is Buddhist flood myth? (Jataka); Garden of Eden

Did you know Hinduism has their own global flood legend? Here it is Startling Similarity between Hindu Flood Legend of Manu and the Biblical Account of Noah

Since Buddhism came out of Hinduism,, should that make you wonder if you are in a man made religion after all as each carried part of the truth about the global flood whereas the Bible kept it in full?

Did you know that the ancient Chinese pictograph for boat is made up by 3 smaller pictographs of eight, and mouths or persons and vessel?

1 Peter 3:Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Come back to Jesus Christ and learn of Him and His words in the KJV.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Since Buddhism came out of Hinduism, I would say everybody is making up their own definition of enlightenment and meditation that only proves they are not really followers of Buddha. They could even go back to Hinduism and then what?
It can be useful to transpose one's own words into a different key so as to get an alternative perspective on them. Something like this:

Since Christianity came out of Judaism, I would say everybody is making up their own definition of salvation that only proves they are not really followers of Jesus. They could even go back to Judaism and then what?​

Would that convince you? No, I didn't think so. Why did you expect it to convince me?

So why don't you blame Buddha for all the evils in the world?
Because the Buddha did not make the world. He just lived in it and showed us how to escape it.

God made a decree that those who bless Israel shall be blessed and those who cursed Israel shall be cursed.
Which leaves you with the problem of how an unborn child can be told not to curse Israel, and how such an unborn child can actually curse Israel while still in the womb. Your God claims to be just. I cannot see the justice here.

God also foreknew what would happen
So, God correctly foresaw that He would kill them in His flood and that they would not commit any sins after they were dead. What sins did they commit before they died in their mothers wombs?

Really think they should continue as a people when they corrupt others around them to do the same? And yet what had happened when Israel did not kill off the Philistines like they were supposed to? Every time Israel sinned as a nation against God, they suffer punishment where the nations are overthrown.
The Philistines were long after Noah's flood, so they are not relevant to this discussion. God killed a lot of unborn children; on a literal interpretation He killed every unborn child on earth. As I said, not a loving action, not a just action and not a God worthy of respect,

What does Buddha say about evil people? Were they born that way? Did they do evil in their previous lives for why they were reborn and continue to get worse & worse? Hardly the reality of Buddhism can be true when majority of people are getting worse
People are not evil -- actions can be evil. Wrong actions have deleterious consequences, which is how karma works. You do the crime so you do the time. Given the number of previous lives that people have had then all have done both evil and good many times in their past lives, often in their present lives as well.

I disagree that people are generally getting worse. The death penalty is less common than it used to be for example.

He is God. He knows all things; He is just when executing judgment.
No He is not just. What did He judge all those unborn children guilty of before He drowned their pregnant mothers?

If you believed that God judged the world by a global flood because every thought & intent of their hearts was evil continually, then God has a right to judge thru out history in working towards the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purpose.
I do not believe that, you do. I do not believe that a "just" and "loving" God can be so described if He drowns pregnant women wholesale, thus killing their unborn children. Christians tell me that they are against killing the unborn. Evidently God didn't get the message.

The God of the Old Testament kills far to many people. You should read through Buddhist scriptures and count up how many people the Buddha kills for a comparison.

Did you know that the ancient Chinese pictograph for boat is made up by 3 smaller pictographs of eight, and mouths or persons and vessel?
Humans need to live near water, so all human groups have floods in their history. No ancient human group had the ability to determine if a flood was worldwide or not; all that signifies is that the flood was a lot bigger than average for the area. Every hundred years or so you get a "once in a hundred years" size flood. You get an even bigger one every thousand years.

Your sources seem not to understand how most Chinese characters are constructed. Part gives the meaning and another part gives the pronunciation. Your source is treating the phonetic element as part of the meaning. See CG101: Chinese Glyph for "Ark" for more details.
 

Hark

Well-known member
It can be useful to transpose one's own words into a different key so as to get an alternative perspective on them. Something like this:

Since Christianity came out of Judaism, I would say everybody is making up their own definition of salvation that only proves they are not really followers of Jesus. They could even go back to Judaism and then what?​

Would that convince you? No, I didn't think so. Why did you expect it to convince me?
Because Jesus warned about false prophets coming in for why many saved believers will not be found abiding in Him as not ready for why they will be left behind when He comes.

Buddhism allows for falsehood.
 

rossum

Well-known member
Buddhism allows for falsehood.
It is not the only religion that does so:

• 1 Kings 22:23 - Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.​
• 2 Chronicles 18:22 - Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.​
• Jeremiah 4:10 - Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.​
• Jeremiah 20:7 - O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.​
• Ezekiel 14:9 - And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.​
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.​
 

Hark

Well-known member
It is not the only religion that does so:

• 1 Kings 22:23 - Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.​
• 2 Chronicles 18:22 - Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.​
• Jeremiah 4:10 - Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.​
• Jeremiah 20:7 - O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.​
• Ezekiel 14:9 - And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.​
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.​
But Jesus Christ as God does not allow for falsehood but punishes falsehood. God does not allow scripture for private interpretation as we are to rightly divide the word of truth with His help to abide in His words and thus abide in truth.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Buddha allows for different interpretation & thus cannot avoid falsehood. You testified of what you had learned that enlightenment is different for everyone; they can do different meditation than what Buddha has done to achieve those different kinds of enlightenment.

You testified you had a vision and you still call it a vision. Yet you allow your teacher to dismiss it and say it was your imagination for you to dismiss it. I believe it was a vision but like memories of past lives and anything else sought after during these meditations, the mind can play tricks and yet supernatural phenomenon can also occur. Is there not a yoga type meditation where people can leave their bodies to enter the "astral plane" and testify to going place on earth, seeing people and things happening at that moment in tome as if they were physically there but yet not there to be seen by any one to verify that they were there? I am sure it can mystify people but then so can mediums in contacting the dead in sharing information that only the spirits of the dead would know.

Yet all of this is an abomination to the Lord for seeking those things instead of Jesus Christ the Lord.

It seems all I can say is this, because of what has happened to my friend and others testify of scary supernatural phenomenon in Khundalini in doing that meditation and yoga, I hope in the Lord Jesus Christ Who is in you, to remind you to call on Him for help when that scary stuff happens to you, for greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world. All those that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

rossum

Well-known member
But Jesus Christ as God does not allow for falsehood but punishes falsehood. God does not allow scripture for private interpretation as we are to rightly divide the word of truth with His help to abide in His words and thus abide in truth.
God explicitly says that He lies and deceives on occasions. If, as Christians say, Jesus is God, then Jesus is not being consistent.

If "private interpretation" is not allowed, then do we follow the Pope on Rome or the Patriarch in Istanbul? Or do we follow Ken Ham perhaps? There are a lot of public interpretations available. The Archbishop of Canterbury maybe? Jerry Falwell Jr?

Buddha allows for different interpretation & thus cannot avoid falsehood.
God allows different interpretations and thus cannot avoid falsehood. Either Lutheran, Calvinist or both must be wrong. Either pre-trib, post-trib or both must be wrong. Has God eliminated all Christian denominations except one? No, He allows false interpretations to carry on regardless.

It seems all I can say is this, because of what has happened to my friend and others testify of scary supernatural phenomenon in Khundalini in doing that meditation and yoga,
Kundalini is Hindu, not Buddhist. If your friend has problems then he needs to find a better teacher.
 
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