Limited atonement? What is that?
Are we justified by faith when we have faith?
- Thread starter Matt-Slick
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Google it !
will I find it in the scripture?
The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation.
That is nonsensical and not in the scripture. If it was then Peter would not have written this
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Clearly, Peter is saying if we don't follow his directions we will fall
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brightfame52
Well-known member
So do you now know what I mean by limited atonement?
Wow Jesus was not an apologist? Let me write that down. And I see you have a problem with my go to guy RC that he's not Jesus. Man you're just full of all sorts of useful information I never could figure that out on my own. I believe John the Baptist didn't bum rush anyone, they came to him. I'm kinda concerned why you're worried about being touched by an unclean person I hope nothing bad happened to you. If so Jesus might be able to help you out as He had dealings with unclean people, and He loved them and healed them.
Have a blessed day, "this is the day the Lord is made and we will rejoice and be glad in it". So put your glad face on
Where does it say that he is sir?
Is he more reliable than Jesus sir?
Yes they came and he was very short ...repent and be baptized... When others do the same you call it bum rush.
I was referring to the items that you claim to remain holy. I am kinda concerned about why you are worried about something I never said.
Yep as were some of us, I was unclean now I am healed and loved by Jesus. How about you? Were you never unclean? I suppose you don't need Jesus then.
Right back at you who was never unclean therefore has no need to be healed by Jesus.
I don't know what you mean by it ...I know what I read about it. Which flies in the face of
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
UncleAbee
Active member
Most churches
I assumed that you did believe in some type of limited atonement. Are you a Calvanist?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Know it doesnt, just in your imagination. And Im not explaining that verse to you !
brightfame52
Well-known member
Im a believer in Christ ! And His Death Justified many Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
You can't explain the verse without compromising your limited atonement assumption.
Believers are partakers of the divine nature and are expected to live according to that divine nature...
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
brightfame52
Well-known member
That verse/passage doesnt contradict limited atonement except in your own mind. And Im not explaining verses you go find for me to explain ! Do your own explaining of verses you go find, I do !
The passage does since the person in the passage must be diligent and do certain things that he may never fall He has to add to his faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. These things must be in him and must also come out from him.
With limited atonement, one does not need anything since they will be saved no matter what.
The passage does not need any explanation for those who have added to their faith, knowledge.
With limited atonement, you don't have to add anything you are guaranteed a spot in your limited atonement heaven.
brightfame52
Well-known member
No it doesn't, you are imagining it does !
How do you know when you have faith?
Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus proves that faith requires action to show that you have it. Else it's just talk.
UncleAbee
Active member
Justification by faith comes once you place your trust in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom ch 3). But, again this is not the end of salvation. Of course James says something different on the subject. I think James and Paul (Rom ch 3 vs James ch 2) were working off different definitions of faith and works.
James' works - good works of Christ
Paul's works - works of the OT law
James' faith - Mental assent (even the demons believe ......)
Paul's faith - Trusting in Christ's work on the cross.
Comparing and contrasting James and Paul is very tricky because of this. IMO people heard Paul and took his writings on faith too far. They were thinking that belief was enough. They didn't have to do anything. I think James had access to Paul's writings and was countering the idea that it was enough just to believe and not have to do anything. Like I said though, just my opinion. The reason I believe James had access to Paul's writings because they both quote Abraham (same OT chapter and verse) as their proof text. I don't think James was countering Paul. I think James was countering the erroneous community idea (from reading Rom ch 4) that it was enough to believe and do no work.
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Your doctrine of baptism is so painful read. You really have no understanding of what baptism is or what it does. Lets go back to the basics.....
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First.
What is Baptism?
Answer: Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
Which is that word of God?
Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?
Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God?
Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Thirdly.
How can water do such great things?
Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.
Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?
Answer: It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?
Answer: St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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I'd suggest you meditate on the above. From it you should be able to come to a clear understanding of what Christian Baptism is and not as it has been redefined by the Anabaptists.
Here's a couple of points you should find in the above.
By connecting the word of God and baptism through invoking the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, it is God that is baptising not the man actually pouring the water on you. You evangelicals are so blinded by your anti-RC bigotry that you remove God from baptism.
Baptism does save as the bible states in the above verse. By the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, we are buried with Christ and raised into newness of life.
Finally, believe and be baptised.......not believe and be baptised when you can find a clean swimming pool and some decent weather.
By removing God from your baptism you end up filling that void with some form of 20th century monkery. Essentially you fall into a form of whacky evangelical convental nomism.
water only for JOHN
Member
Mark 16:16
For those who believe and are BAPTIZED will be SAVED..
The scripture says we must be baptized in order to be saved.
Most people today think the word baptize means WATER BAPTISM , but to put your thinking cap on John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptize in the Holy Spirit .without the baptism of the Holy Spirit you cannot be saved.
YOU can lead a non Christian to water baptism but they're still not saved.
A person must think about the baptism of the Holy Spirit if they have any doubt they are not saved
water only for JOHN
Member
The simple truth is most people don't understand the word BAPTISM..
Acts 1:1 - 5
Jesus said for John baptized with water but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit ..
Mark 16:16
for those who believe and are baptized will be saved .
""Belief is not enough""
JESUS DOSE THE BAPTISM
You cannot schedule a baptism of the Holy Spirit it's like the wind you never know when it will hit you
the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit does SAVE.....
The sad thing is most people don't understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
All christians have to have a testimony of their baptism of the Holy Spirit.