Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

Newbirth

Well-known member
uncleab



No sir, only those men Christ died for, I believe in limited atonement ! Now those people He died for are Justified by His death Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
Limited atonement? What is that?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Google it !
will I find it in the scripture?
The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation.

That is nonsensical and not in the scripture. If it was then Peter would not have written this
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Clearly, Peter is saying if we don't follow his directions we will fall
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
will I find it in the scripture?
The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world, it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation.

That is nonsensical and not in the scripture. If it was then Peter would not have written this
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Clearly, Peter is saying if we don't follow his directions we will fall
So do you now know what I mean by limited atonement?
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Jesus was not an apologetic was he? Don't recall ever reading that. I have a problem with your go-to guy he is not Jesus.

Since you put it that way the first person to bum rush people to baptize was John. Why didn't Philip wait for a collection of people to baptize the eunuch?

What if they were touched by an unclean person?
Wow Jesus was not an apologist? Let me write that down. And I see you have a problem with my go to guy RC that he's not Jesus. Man you're just full of all sorts of useful information I never could figure that out on my own. I believe John the Baptist didn't bum rush anyone, they came to him. I'm kinda concerned why you're worried about being touched by an unclean person I hope nothing bad happened to you. If so Jesus might be able to help you out as He had dealings with unclean people, and He loved them and healed them.

Have a blessed day, "this is the day the Lord is made and we will rejoice and be glad in it". So put your glad face on
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Wow Jesus was not an apologist?
Where does it say that he is sir?
Let me write that down. And I see you have a problem with my go to guy RC that he's not Jesus.
Is he more reliable than Jesus sir?
Man you're just full of all sorts of useful information I never could figure that out on my own. I believe John the Baptist didn't bum rush anyone, they came to him.
Yes they came and he was very short ...repent and be baptized... When others do the same you call it bum rush.
I'm kinda concerned why you're worried about being touched by an unclean person I hope nothing bad happened to you.
I was referring to the items that you claim to remain holy. I am kinda concerned about why you are worried about something I never said.
If so Jesus might be able to help you out as He had dealings with unclean people, and He loved them and healed them.
Yep as were some of us, I was unclean now I am healed and loved by Jesus. How about you? Were you never unclean? I suppose you don't need Jesus then.
Have a blessed day, "this is the day the Lord is made and we will rejoice and be glad in it". So put your glad face on
Right back at you who was never unclean therefore has no need to be healed by Jesus.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
So do you now know what I mean by limited atonement?
I don't know what you mean by it ...I know what I read about it. Which flies in the face of
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
 

UncleAbee

Active member
Most churches
uncleab



No sir, only those men Christ died for, I believe in limited atonement ! Now those people He died for are Justified by His death Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
I assumed that you did believe in some type of limited atonement. Are you a Calvanist?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I don't know what you mean by it ...I know what I read about it. Which flies in the face of
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Know it doesnt, just in your imagination. And Im not explaining that verse to you !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Most churches

I assumed that you did believe in some type of limited atonement. Are you a Calvanist?
Im a believer in Christ ! And His Death Justified many Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Know it doesnt, just in your imagination. And Im not explaining that verse to you !
You can't explain the verse without compromising your limited atonement assumption.
Believers are partakers of the divine nature and are expected to live according to that divine nature...
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You can't explain the verse without compromising your limited atonement assumption.
Believers are partakers of the divine nature and are expected to live according to that divine nature...
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
That verse/passage doesnt contradict limited atonement except in your own mind. And Im not explaining verses you go find for me to explain ! Do your own explaining of verses you go find, I do !
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
That verse/passage doesnt contradict limited atonement except in your own mind.
The passage does since the person in the passage must be diligent and do certain things that he may never fall He has to add to his faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. These things must be in him and must also come out from him.
With limited atonement, one does not need anything since they will be saved no matter what.
And Im not explaining verses you go find for me to explain ! Do your own explaining of verses you go find, I do !
The passage does not need any explanation for those who have added to their faith, knowledge.
With limited atonement, you don't have to add anything you are guaranteed a spot in your limited atonement heaven.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The passage does since the person in the passage must be diligent and do certain things that he may never fall He has to add to his faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. These things must be in him and must also come out from him.
With limited atonement, one does not need anything since they will be saved no matter what.

The passage does not need any explanation for those who have added to their faith, knowledge.
With limited atonement, you don't have to add anything you are guaranteed a spot in your limited atonement heaven.
No it doesn't, you are imagining it does !
 

UncleAbee

Active member
My answer to the OP is yes, we are justified by faith when we have faith. This is not the end of salvation though.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
My answer to the OP is yes, we are justified by faith when we have faith. This is not the end of salvation though.
How do you know when you have faith?
Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus proves that faith requires action to show that you have it. Else it's just talk.
 

UncleAbee

Active member
How do you know when you have faith?
Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus proves that faith requires action to show that you have it. Else it's just talk.
Justification by faith comes once you place your trust in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom ch 3). But, again this is not the end of salvation. Of course James says something different on the subject. I think James and Paul (Rom ch 3 vs James ch 2) were working off different definitions of faith and works.

James' works - good works of Christ
Paul's works - works of the OT law

James' faith - Mental assent (even the demons believe ......)
Paul's faith - Trusting in Christ's work on the cross.

Comparing and contrasting James and Paul is very tricky because of this. IMO people heard Paul and took his writings on faith too far. They were thinking that belief was enough. They didn't have to do anything. I think James had access to Paul's writings and was countering the idea that it was enough just to believe and not have to do anything. Like I said though, just my opinion. The reason I believe James had access to Paul's writings because they both quote Abraham (same OT chapter and verse) as their proof text. I don't think James was countering Paul. I think James was countering the erroneous community idea (from reading Rom ch 4) that it was enough to believe and do no work.
 
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Dropkick

New Member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
Your doctrine of baptism is so painful read. You really have no understanding of what baptism is or what it does. Lets go back to the basics.....

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First.
What is Baptism?

Answer: Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
Which is that word of God?
Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?

Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God?
Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thirdly.
How can water do such great things?

Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.

Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?

Answer: It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?
Answer: St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

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I'd suggest you meditate on the above. From it you should be able to come to a clear understanding of what Christian Baptism is and not as it has been redefined by the Anabaptists.

Here's a couple of points you should find in the above.

By connecting the word of God and baptism through invoking the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, it is God that is baptising not the man actually pouring the water on you. You evangelicals are so blinded by your anti-RC bigotry that you remove God from baptism.

Baptism does save as the bible states in the above verse. By the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, we are buried with Christ and raised into newness of life.

Finally, believe and be baptised.......not believe and be baptised when you can find a clean swimming pool and some decent weather.

By removing God from your baptism you end up filling that void with some form of 20th century monkery. Essentially you fall into a form of whacky evangelical convental nomism.
 
What does baptism actually accomplish in the lives of those who receive it? Inquiring minds want to know.

What exactly is baptisms role in our salvation. Do you have to be baptized to experience the new birth? Just from doing little bit of study it's obvious this question has ruffled a few feathers in the history of the church, I'm hoping to find some clarity right here. I know what you're thinking "that redeemed guy is quite the optimist isn't he".

Justification by faith in Christ should be a humbling experience for it leaves one person no more or less justified than another. The minute you add something to that it's very easy to get prideful. The apostle Paul warns of that in 1Corinthians 10:1-17.

This is why I believe we are justified by faith that results in righteousness, not by faith and being baptized by some certain denomination or person in that denomination or some ritual that someone has come up with.
Mark 16:16
For those who believe and are BAPTIZED will be SAVED..

The scripture says we must be baptized in order to be saved.

Most people today think the word baptize means WATER BAPTISM , but to put your thinking cap on John the Baptist preached the one who comes after me will baptize in the Holy Spirit .without the baptism of the Holy Spirit you cannot be saved.

YOU can lead a non Christian to water baptism but they're still not saved.

A person must think about the baptism of the Holy Spirit if they have any doubt they are not saved
 
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
The simple truth is most people don't understand the word BAPTISM..
Acts 1:1 - 5
Jesus said for John baptized with water but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit ..
Mark 16:16
for those who believe and are baptized will be saved .

""Belief is not enough""
JESUS DOSE THE BAPTISM
You cannot schedule a baptism of the Holy Spirit it's like the wind you never know when it will hit you

the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit does SAVE.....

The sad thing is most people don't understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

All christians have to have a testimony of their baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
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