Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

[JonHawk]

Newbirth said:
Oh really? How can you trust the Lord when you don't trust those he sent with the message? You reject Paul's words...workout your own salvation with fear and trembling...

I have never ignored the righteousness from God by faith...or deny the testimony of the spirit... You are denying the words of Paul. You are actually making that claim because I am working out my own salvation with fear and trembling...So answer me this ....Who is working out your salvation?

Nor will you find a single post of mine that says Not to praise God from whom all blessings flow. And If you really wanna know what I think, just give God the glory for the gift of Eternal Life that He granted you through the Son.

JonHawk said:
And the testimony is this: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son [resulting in our spiritual completeness, and eternal unity with Him].

Newbirth said:
You are adding to the scripture...Please show where that part in the brackets is written.

In the mean time, you're only acting the fool forgetting that there is only One Savior.

And that wasn't my version bro, try Amplified Bible. As it concerns me, I hear it directly from the source,

who, once made perfect, He, Himself became the source of eternal salvation... honor, kiss the Son,

Christ in you, ...Him we preach that we may present every bother and sister perfectly united in Christ Jesus.

All the brethren greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.

 

[Newbirth]

Nor will you find a single post of mine that says Not to praise God from whom all blessings flow.

neither will you find me saying you said that...You are making a strawman argument. Your claim is that we must not work out our own salvation with fear and trembling as Paul said. You even went so far as to mock me and call me "trembler".

And If really wanna know what I think, just give God the glory for the gift of Eternal Life that He granted you through the Son.

Eternal life is only for those who obey Jesus. Not because of what you think.

In the mean time, you're only acting the fool forgetting that there is only One Savior.

You are acting the fool by assuming you know what I am forgetting.

And that wasn't my version bro, try Amplified Bible. As it concerns me, I hear it directly from the source,

The Amplified version is not a direct translation, it is a lot of assumptions, therefore you are not hearing directly from the source

who, once made perfect, He, Himself became the source of eternal salvation... honor, kiss the Son,

Christ in you, ...Him we preach that we may present every bother and sister perfectly united in Christ Jesus.

All the brethren greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.

I don't see how that applied to not working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[JonHawk]

In the mean time, you're only acting the fool forgetting that there is only One Savior.

You are acting the fool by assuming you know what I am forgetting.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy [the one God who has the absolute power of life and death];

The Amplified version is not a direct translation, it is a lot of assumptions, therefore you are not hearing directly from the source

But who are you to [hypocritically or self-righteously] pass judgment on your neighbor? James 4:12

Eternal life is only for those who obey Jesus. Not because of what you think.

That was more like a suggested guideline towards others, I know in whom I believe.
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36

As it concerns me, I hear it directly from the source,

who, once made perfect, He, Himself became the source of eternal salvation... honor, kiss the Son,

...Him we preach that we may present every bother and sister perfectly united in Christ Jesus.

I don't see how that applied to not working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Obviously you don't see how believers are reconciled in one Spirit to the Father through the Son, since you're trying to work it out in fear, all by yourself.

By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in unity with the Father on earth. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. 1 John 4:17-19

 

[Newbirth]

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy [the one God who has the absolute power of life and death];

You are making a strawman argument...the fact is you are assuming to know that I am forgetting.

But who are you to [hypocritically or self-righteously] pass judgment on your neighbor? James 4:12

You are assuming that I am passing judgment by passing judgment on me. I stated facts.

That was more like a suggested guideline towards others, I know in whom I believe.

You know what was suggested to you. We know according to what we hear...Intelligent people test the scripture to ensure what they hear or read is compatible with the original translation of the gospel.

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36

Yep, The son sent the apostles to teach what we must obey...Paul being an apostle says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Obviously you don't see how believers are reconciled in one Spirit to the Father through the Son, since you're trying to work it out in fear, all by yourself.

Paul did not say work out your reconciliation in the one spirit to the father through the son.

By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in unity with the Father on earth. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. 1 John 4:17-19

So it boils down to that day, and how we translate our love. The fear in this passage is not the same fear Paul is speaking about. It seem as if you are suggesting they are...
1 Peter 2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Know the difference Jon...

 

[JonHawk]

You are making a strawman argument...the fact is you are assuming to know that I am forgetting.

The problem is your own mouth condemns you.

So it boils down to that day,...

Yet, He says, "Now is the day of salvation."

For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2

Paul did not say work out your reconciliation in the one spirit to the father through the son.

You are certainly not coming to the Father through a reprobate spirit.
For He Himself is our peace,...through Him we have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph 2:14-22

Acts 13:26
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,... they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony" Rev 12

 

[Newbirth]

The problem is your own mouth condemns you.

you are not my mouth you are the one condemning

Yet, He says, "Now is the day of salvation."

For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2

it is obvious he is not speaking of that day, else there would be no salvation for anyone else.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You are certainly not coming to the Father through a reprobate spirit.

Everyone comes with that... except maybe you, did you come to the father with a perfect spirit?

For He Himself is our peace,...through Him we have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph 2:14-22

How does this verse negate working out your own salvation?

“Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,... they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony" Rev 12

That is in the future is it not? You Just proved that salvation is coming...

 

[JonHawk]

Everyone comes with that... except maybe you, did you come to the father with a perfect spirit?

Everyone comes to the Father with a new heart and spirit Newbirth.

That is in the future is it not? You Just proved that salvation is coming...

That proves how they overcame,
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the firstborn, the Son of God. 1 John 5:4-5

 

[Newbirth]

Everyone comes to the Father with a new heart and spirit Newbirth.

which they got from Jesus whom the father sent...So in reality we all came as sinners.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

That proves how they overcame,

There are many obstacles to overcome for the believer. So therefore it proves how they will continue to overcome

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Well, believers must live by faith that is an ongoing process. There are those who turn from the faith. Those who endure to the end are the overcomers.

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the firstborn, the Son of God. 1 John 5:4-5

Those who believe obey and abide in Jesus don't they? Obedience and remaining in Christ is working out your salvation. Paul says to do it with fear and trembling.

 

[JonHawk]

JonHawk said:
That proves how they overcame,
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the firstborn, the Son of God. 1 John 5:4-5

which they got from Jesus whom the father sent...
Matthew 9:13
for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

There are many obstacles to overcome for the believer... There are those who turn from the faith.

Those are called deceivers, not believers.
Warnings Against Rejecting the Son
For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

 

[Newbirth]

Those are called deceivers, not believers.

They turned from the faith, who did they deceive? Men do that every day. Many turned from Jesus
John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
They are called unbelievers just as we were before we believed.

Warnings Against Rejecting the Son
For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

Therefore it is by choice because the HS can be grieved.

 

[JonHawk]

They turned from the faith, who did they deceive? Men do that every day. Many turned from Jesus

No one told you to rely on fallible humans.
For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4

JonHawk said:
Warnings Against Rejecting the Son
For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

Therefore it is by choice because the HS can be grieved.

If they rejected the the work of redemption in Christ their choice becomes obvious.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, 1 John 3:10

 

[Newbirth]

No one told you to rely on fallible humans.

How did you hear the gospel? Fallible men wrote the words you are quoting.

For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4

Should I take this to mean God is true but you are a liar? or is Paul calling himself a liar? You keep posting verses out of context.

If they rejected the the work of redemption in Christ their choice becomes obvious.

Christ died once for all men. Did he not? According to your doctrine, it would be impossible for men to resist God therefore all men are saved because the work of redemption in Christ applies to all men. According to you, it is not what men do but what Christ has done and since Christ died for all men then all men must be saved.. A man does not have to work out anything to maintain salvation. A person can live as a sinner and still be saved because of the work of redemption in Christ is that what you are saying?

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, 1 John 3:10

Have I not been saying that all week long? Practicing righteousness is working out your own salvation. If one is not practicing righteousness he would be practicing unrighteousness, wouldn't he?

 

[JonHawk]

How did you hear the gospel? Fallible men wrote the words you are quoting.

We desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:11-12

Should I take this to mean God is true but you are a liar? or is Paul calling himself a liar? You keep posting verses out of context.

Liars are those who deny Christ. Paul is an minister of righteousness and you don't know Scripture that testifies of salvation through Christ nor the power of God to save.

Christ died once for all men. Did he not? According to your doctrine, it would be impossible for men to resist God therefore all men are saved According to you, it is not what men do but what Christ has done

It is certainly through the merits of Christ that we are saved but not all men have faith. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-3

and since Christ died for all men then all men must be saved.. A man does not have to work out anything to maintain salvation.

According to my gospel the promise is of faith to the end that it is granted to all the seed of Abraham the believer.
The promise to Abraham and to his seed is through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:13
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Gal 3:7
And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed according to the promise; Gal 3:29

A person can live as a sinner and still be saved because of the work of redemption in Christ is that what you are saying?

A person has no access to God outside of faith, redemption in Christ.

Have I not been saying that all week long? Practicing righteousness is working out your own salvation.

If you practiced righteousness you would have been born of the Spirit, born of faith.

 

[Newbirth]

We desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:11-12

Isn't that working out your own salvation?

Liars are those who deny Christ. Paul is an minister of righteousness and you don't know Scripture that testifies of salvation through Christ nor the power of God to save.

liars are anyone who does not speak the truth or cover the truth.

It is certainly through the merits of Christ that we are saved but not all men have faith. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-3

because faith without works is dead...consider this...
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

According to my gospel the promise is of faith to the end that it is granted to all the seed of Abraham the believer.
The promise to Abraham and to his seed is through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:13
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Gal 3:7
And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed according to the promise; Gal 3:29

A person has no access to God outside of faith, redemption in Christ.

If you practiced righteousness you would have been born of the Spirit, born of faith.

This does not mean you don't have to work out your own salvation, does it...practicing righteousness is working out your own salvation...
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[JonHawk]

We desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:11-12

"And I know that His command is everlasting life." John 12:49

Isn't that working out your own salvation?

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, Titus 1

liars are anyone who does not speak the truth or cover the truth.

To the unbelieving nothing is cleansed; even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him,
Titus 1:15

because faith without works is dead...consider this...
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

But now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—Rom 16:26

This does not mean you don't have to work out your own salvation, does it...practicing righteousness is working out your own salvation...

Even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:21

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:14
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him received. John 7:39
This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13

 

[Newbirth]

"And I know that His command is everlasting life." John 12:49

and? That does not mean you don't have to work out your salvation

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, Titus 1

That does not mean Jesus is God

To the unbelieving nothing is cleansed; even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him,
Titus 1:15

Yep you deny him in works

But now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—Rom 16:26

yep, they have to obey...

Even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:21

That does not mean you don't have to work out your salvation

"But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:14
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him received. John 7:39
This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 1 John 4:13

Yep, the spirit helps us to work out our own salvation.
You are yet to show why one should not work out their own salvation.

 

[JonHawk]

That does not mean Jesus is God

"I and the Father are One."

Yep you deny him in works

The work of righteousness will be peace, Isa 32:17

That does not mean you don't have to work out your salvation

Jesus came and said to them, “Peace be with you"... “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20

You are yet to show why one should not work out their own salvation.

Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:18

 

[JonHawk]

and? That does not mean you don't have to work out your salvation

And I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them. Ezekiel 37:26

Newbirth said:
That does not mean Jesus is God

"I and the Father are One."

Newbirth said:
Yep you deny him in works

The way of peace they have not known; Rom 3:17

Newbirth said:
That does not mean you don't have to work out your salvation

The work of righteousness will be peace, Isa 32:17

Yep, the spirit helps us to work out our own salvation.

Jesus came and said to them, “Peace be with you"... “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20

Newbirth said:
You are yet to show why one should not work out their own salvation.

Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:18

yep, they have to obey...

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him. Acts 5:29-32

 

[Newbirth]

"I and the Father are One."

That does not mean Jesus is God...
John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The work of righteousness will be peace, Isa 32:17

you refuse to work

Jesus came and said to them, “Peace be with you"... “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20

Yet there is no record of them receiving the HS at that point... Vs 17 Jesus is saying the father is his God ...you are trying to promote Jesus is God

Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:18

that supports my statement, they are working out their salvation...

 

[JonHawk]

And I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them. Ezekiel 37:26

The work of righteousness will be peace, Isa 32:1

Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:18

that supports my statement,

It supports that we are reconciled by faith and have peace with God, reconciliation with Him through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).

they are working out their salvation...you refuse to work

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, ... if indeed you are grounded in the faith. Col 1:12-23

Jesus came and said to them, “Peace be with you"... “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20

Yet there is no record of them receiving the HS at that point...

The record clearly states that those who believed in Him were to receive the Spirit.

Vs 17 Jesus is saying the father is his God ...you are trying to promote Jesus is God

He is the divine Son of God, the firstborn over all creation, in whom we have redemption.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. Col 1:12-23

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him. Acts 5:29-32