Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
Is this Matt slick of the radio show?
this is off topic, but it might be helpful
I notice you Cough alot on your radio show. I think you are a mouth breather "don't get me wrong" search Joe rogan's YouTube on mouth breathing he has an episode that shows there's a percentage of people who don't breathe correctly through their nose and it affects their respiratory system.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
What does baptism actually accomplish in the lives of those who receive it? Inquiring minds want to know.
It's an act of obedience - when you are Born Again after being Convicted of your SIN, Repenting and calling on God with the FAITH that He gifts, then as a Christian, Biblically, you should be baptized. It also accomplishes a change of clothes, and some wet towels.
 
True - "Belief" (intellectual assent) accomplishes NOTHING. It's FAITH (Heb 11:1) God's gift (Eph 2:8,9) that gets 'er done. And then as a Christian one should be Baptized.
Its our Faith which leads to Gods DISIPLINE

Hebrews 12:6-10

because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.


2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is accounting to the will of God produces a repentance without regret to salvation,
But the sorrow of the world produces death

The faith of God will bring you to true repentance was great sorrow and great remorse.

God put to us on our knees and makes us born again

At that point we are buried with him in the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

REVELATION 7:17
and God will wipe every TEAR FROM YOUR EYES
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Its our Faith which leads to Gods DISIPLINE
Sure no problem - but what do you think Water Baptism has to do with any of that. At the very INSTANT that we place our faith in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, we're infilled with the Holy Spirit, (The Holy Spirit IN) Born Again and ready to go. THEN we're baptised in Water in obedience, and THEN WE Can be Acts 2 Baptized with the Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit ON) moving forward.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).

Morning, Matt:

God justified all men of life--as a free gift--in His Atonement, the ungodly included:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

By absolving one from the condemnation of the Fall(justified of life)--God provided all men the OPPORTUNITY to inherit eternal life--as a free gift to all men.

So--may I ask of you--when you reference "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a reference to a faith without works?

I believe Paul's point in Romans4-- was not works of the gospel are independent of faith in obtaining salvation--but rather--Abraham didn't live under the Law of works(Mosaic Law)--as Abraham was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law. (For Paul--"works" was usually a reference to certain rituals in the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision. James uses "works" as obedience in the gospel. That's confusing.).

IOW--Paul's conclusion was this---the Jews were running to father Abraham to claim their elite status, but Paul confirmed Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--not the Mosaic Law,( as Abrama was 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law)--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to them, but they were rejecting in lieu of the Mosaic Law(works).

There were two separate justifications in the Biblical NT--one, a free gift to all men--where God delivered all from death and hell, as an automatic consequence of the Fall. That had to be done before Jesus could make His Blood effective to the second justification--the forgiveness of personal sins--unto life eternal--as a personal reception of eternal life. Not just the opportunity--but the personal reception of eternal life.

That came through our obedience to Christ,(faith)-- in walking in His Light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


IOW--once a Redeemer redeems one--they then have to meet His conditions of the Redeemer to remain redeemed, as He bought them with a price. If one is redeemed--and does not meet the Redeemer's conditions--they they return to debtor's prison--but for a different reason than what they were originally redeemed of, IE--they aren't condemned due to the Fall--but, instead--don't receive His Blood unto the remission of their personal sins. The first justification absolves all from the condemnation of the Fall--the second addresses personal sins, and whether God will apply His Blood for the remission of the personal sins.

As the scriptures show--all are no longer judged according to the Fall(justified freely from that--Christ alone)--but according to their own works:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

You are mistaken.

Water baptism is HOW you put your faith in Jesus. This is how we die together with him.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member

Are we justified by faith when we have faith?​


Before God and angels we are seen as justified by faith. Because its an indicator we have believed in Christ.

But faith alone is not necessarily seen as justified before men who evaluate on another level.

That is why James said we are justified by our works - because it was before men who were watching the persecution of believing Jews in Jerusalem. Their businesses were being boycotted by unbeliever Jews and were becoming impoverished. The ones who suffered the most was those who were already low income. Some of these persecuted Jews were going to other believers of means asking for help. What did they receive from these believers?

Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them,
“Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,”
but does nothing about their physical needs,
what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
James 2:15-17

James was saying to them? You want to say you are saved, by claiming to have faith? Well? Even demons have "faith." Prove your faith is real by doing what God requires of you concerning those in need. Then you will justify your faith before men by justifying it by what works your faith produces!

But, before angels and God? Let's say a person enters the scene who used to be a hated scoundrel. He is a new believer, and some of his actions leaves angels wondering if God is justified in saying that man is now God's child. Then, that man confesses the Word of God and reveals he believes its true. That "faith" serves as the signal of justification for God saying this newborn low-life believer is his child.

Justification holds more than one meaning. Some see it as only having one application.
 

Thistle

Well-known member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
Matt, I agree with everything you are saying here except this line: "Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness." I disagree that the timing element is any inference of the verse. An easy way to break this down is to take it phrase by phrase.

"But to the one who does not work, . . . "

This just defines the subject of the sentence, namely all those who are not trying to take the works path to salvation [this is the path that Paul tells us does not result in salvation]. That is right down the middle Pauline doctrine.

"but [the one who] believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,"

Paul really only contrasts two possible paths toward salvation. This is the faith path [the only one that results in salvation]. So we have defined the subject in the negative in the first phrase, and in the positive in the second. Now the subject is fully defined.

"his faith is credited as righteousness"
This is the object you receive as a result of pursuing salvation by faith and not works. My point is that none of this grammar or syntax tells us when we receive this result.

"If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith."
I agree with this fully. I don't believe we are justified by faith when we have faith. The verse simply doesn't elucidate the question we are putting to it.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
water Baptism is an external sign of an already accomplisher internal work of the Holy Spirit, as we Baptists would say!!
 

Thistle

Well-known member
water Baptism is an external sign of an already accomplisher internal work of the Holy Spirit, as we Baptists would say!!
So what do you make of this passage?

"For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
- Acts 8:16 NASB [brackets mine]
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
So what do you make of this passage?

"For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
- Acts 8:16 NASB [brackets mine]
I would see this as being the special case where God waited until the Apostles themselves confirmed that Samaritans would now be saved by same messiah as the jews!
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
water Baptism is an external sign of an already accomplisher internal work of the Holy Spirit, as we Baptists would say!!
Water Baptism was a system that had to be unlearned by the church. It was a deeply ingrained holdover from the Jewish inculcation that the disciples were conditioned by. For, we see Peter throughout Acts ordering water baptisms. But, it was not until Acts11 that Peter finally recalled the words of the Lord telling him different. Peter had been told something by Jesus just before Pentecost, and finally sank in month's ... if not a year... later!

The following passage took place shortly after the Resurrection, but before Pentecost.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5

To say the least, the disciples during those days were stunned and in a daze with all the wondrous things going on around them. Keep that in mind. Because what Jesus told his disciples in Acts 1:5 concerning water baptism was going to not fully register with Peter. Its something he will only first recall later on.

Jesus had told them that the old symbolic way of water baptism (baptism of John) was about to be replaced with the antitype reality. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter heard Jesus' words, but it did not yet fully register yet. For, Peter was walking around daily in amazement with so many amazing things shocking his mind. How would you feel if you saw Jesus resurrected and even walking through walls?

Some more background is needed: Prior to the church age the disciples ended up water baptizing more people than John the Baptist had been. It had become second nature for them to water baptize believers on a large scale.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2

As you can see.. Peter was used to water baptizing many people as a way of religious life. So, when the church age exploded on the scene, Peter simply continued without thinking with what he had become accustomed to. Just like he kept eating kosher Peter gave it no thought! So? Water baptizing all new converts was simply a continuation of the old way of life for Peter.

It took all the way to Acts 11 before Peter finally recalled the words of Jesus, words that Jesus told him in the very beginning (just before Pentecost).

Here is when Peter finally made that connection and recalled Jesus words spoken in Acts 1:5, that there was to be a new baptism for the church age to replace water! Not to mention. recalling only after water baptizing thousands in error.

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said:
‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16

See! Peter had been making a mistake. He finally realized it. We do not see any more water baptisms being ordered after Acts 11.

grace and peace.....
 

Thistle

Well-known member
I would see this as being the special case where God waited until the Apostles themselves confirmed that Samaritans would now be saved by same messiah as the jews!
That doesn't seem like a satisfactory answer to me.
 
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GeneZ

Well-known member
So what do you make of this passage?

"For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
- Acts 8:16 NASB [brackets mine]
Baptism held not one meaning of just water. It meant to be placed into full identification with something. In the case of Jesus Name? It meant to be introduced to who and what Jesus is. The word "name" back then could also mean "the person."

An example of such word use for 'baptism' could be seen as follows.

There was a certain eccentric and highly demanding professor at a school. His name was "Professor Sniggles."

The students to say the least did not enjoy his classes. But, it was required for graduation.

One day. An upper classman was walking by the professor's classroom as students were exiting. He was overhearing their heated discussion about what a pain that class is to take. They looked back at him and saw him smiling. They keep looking at him. And, then he tells them... "I see, you have been baptized into Professor Sniggles!" They all laugh and keep walking.

Back then, the word baptism simply mean to be placed into identification with something.... Water baptism placed one in identification with repentance towards God. In contrast. The Holy Spirit baptism places one in identification with God.

grace and peace......
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Baptism held not one meaning of just water. It meant to be placed into full identification with something. In the case of Jesus Name? It meant to be introduced to who and what Jesus is. The word "name" back then could also mean "the person."
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
- Galatians 3:27 RSV
If we are putting on Christ like a garment in baptism, such that when God sees us, he sees Jesus, I'd have to agree that we are taking on Christ's identification analogically. But that hardly changes the fact that baptism is still a ceremony involving immersion in water.
An example of such word use for 'baptism' could be seen as follows.

There was a certain eccentric and highly demanding professor at a school. His name was "Professor Sniggles."

The students to say the least did not enjoy his classes. But, it was required for graduation.

One day. An upper classman was walking by the professor's classroom as students were exiting. He was overhearing their heated discussion about what a pain that class is to take. They looked back at him and saw him smiling. They keep looking at him. And, then he tells them... "I see, you have been baptized into Professor Sniggles!" They all laugh and keep walking.

Back then, the word baptism simply mean to be placed into identification with something....
There is no evidence to support the notion that "Back then, the word baptism simply mean to be placed into identification with something."
Water baptism placed one in identification with repentance towards God. In contrast. The Holy Spirit baptism places one in identification with God.

grace and peace......
This argument starts on a faulty premise.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Actusally, it is a unique situation, as the Lord wanted to confirm and prove that Jesus was messiah for Gentiles and samaritans along with Jews!
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
There is no evidence to support the notion that "Back then, the word baptism simply mean to be placed into identification with something."

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our
ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
1 Corinthians 10:1-2

They were all placed into identification with Moses. He was their head, and they were the feet.

The word "baptism" appears in ancient Greek writings. It was not a new word at the time of John the Baptist.

Would you want to learn the Greek history of the word usage? If you wish to learn more about the meaning of baptism from free audio lessons, just let me know.

grace and peace
 
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