Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

GeneZ

Well-known member
The Lord says, “The time is coming when I will visit and I will call into account all those who are circumcised [physically] and yet uncircumcised [spiritually of the heart]—Jeremiah 9:25

For he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual renewal in Christ. His praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:11


What you quote is not concerning the Jews who lived before the Cross.

Before the Cross the disciples were yet being Jews, not Christians.

After the Cross all Jews who believed ceased being Jews. They became a new creation in Christ.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Indeed.
God appointed Christ as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him
.
John 3:36
If God appointed Jesus as judge, then Jesus is not God, is he? Can you see your folly?
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
What you quote is not concerning the Jews who lived before the Cross.

Before the Cross the disciples were yet being Jews, not Christians.

After the Cross all Jews who believed ceased being Jews. They became a new creation in Christ.
That is total nonsense...Paul says he is a Jew.
Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I gave you plenty of Scripture in post 613.
out of context scriptures do not count in a discussion
All you do? You call me an idiot.
You are making yourself such
Yet, you can not address one passage I gave.
like I said out of context passages do not count.
You did quote just one I gave, but did not adrresss it, but threw in your own bias about another matter.
That is your opinion...
Go away... I put such as yourself on Ignore.
You put God on ignore, so I am in good company...
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Being a Jew from birth... I never heard of such a story. Sounds like folklore.

But this I found it online on several times with slight variations... A bit different than your pick.


“According to a traditional Hebrew story, Abraham was sitting outside his tent one evening when he saw an old man, weary from age and journey, coming toward him. Abraham rushed out, greeted him, and then invited him into his tent. There he washed the old man’s feet and gave him food and drink.

The old man immediately began eating without saying any prayer or blessing. So Abraham asked him, “Don’t you worship God?”

The old traveler replied, “I worship fire only and reverence no other god.”
When he heard this, Abraham became incensed, grabbed the old man by the shoulders, and threw him out his tent into the cold night air.

After the old man was gone, God called to his friend Abraham and asked where the stranger was. Abraham replied, “I forced him out because he did not worship You.”

God answered, “I have suffered him these eighty years although he dishonours me. Could you not endure him one night?””
...that story is about you...You put people on ignore.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
According to a Hebrew story, Abraham was sitting outside his tent one evening when he saw an old man
by the name of Fajr - Arabic for dawn or new beginning, who was weary from journey, coming toward him.
Abraham rushed out, greeted him, and then invited him in and offered him food and drink.
Fajr began eating without saying thanks. So Abraham asked him, “Don’t you worship God?”
Fajr replied, “I worship fire only and reverence no other god.”
Abraham became incensed, grabbed Fajr by the shoulders, and threw him out.
When Fajr had departed, God called to his friend Abraham and asked where the stranger was.
Abraham replied, “I threw him out because he was an illegitimate bastard.”

Don't even eat with such people. *1 Cor 5:11
That is why Jesus is Greater than Abraham... Given the chance, you might stone people who disagree with you to death
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Newbirth said:
@GeneZ
.Jesus was building the foundation of his church...The apostles were all Jews...not christians...
The Lord says, “The time is coming when I will visit and I will call into account all those who are circumcised [physically] and yet uncircumcised [spiritually of the heart]—Jeremiah 9:25

For he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual renewal in Christ. His praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:11
Newbirth said:
...All the epistles were written to the saints of God...not one was addressed to christians...
Christ Our Cornerstone— For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Eph 2:18-19
Newbirth said:
No mention of living work in the scripture. Dead works refers to ineffective works...
In which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath Ephesians 2
Newbirth said:
We are saved by grace, not works...
Indeed.
God appointed Christ as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
That is why Jesus is Greater than Abraham...
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath...
Where our forerunner went in— Jesus— having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:17-20
Given the chance, you might stone people who disagree with you to death
For starters, people who disagree with the gospel of Christ are headed for perdition all on their own.
Also, it was the religious zealots casting stones:

"You are just like your ancestors: devoid of the Spirit... they became furious and gnashed their teeth. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears, ...and began to stone him; Acts 7:50-58

Concerning this we have much to say, and it is hard for you to grasp, since you have covered your ears, becoming spiritually dull of hearing. Heb 5:10-12
For they did not know about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and sought to establish their own based on works;
For the law is fulfilled in Christ. Rom10:3-4

"Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day ....” John 8:56

I John, was in the Spirit [in communion with the Holy Spirit and strengthened to receive the revelation of Jesus Christ] On the Lord’s Day
and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,...I saw someone like the Son of Man; Rev 1:10

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at My table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior]. Matt 8:11
 
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Newbirth

Well-known member
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath...
Where our forerunner went in— Jesus— having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:17-20
More proof that Jesus is not God. Why are you arguing against yourself?
For starters, people who disagree with the gospel of Christ are headed for perdition all on their own.
Also, it was the religious zealots casting stones:
That is you in both cases.
"You are just like your ancestors: devoid of the Spirit... they became furious and gnashed their teeth. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears, ...and began to stone him; Acts 7:50-58
More proof that Jesus is not God. You keep posting scriptures against your beliefs.
Concerning this we have much to say, and it is hard for you to grasp, since you have covered your ears, becoming spiritually dull of hearing. Heb 5:10-12
For they did not know about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and sought to establish their own based on works;
For the law is fulfilled in Christ. Rom10:3-4
That is referring to the Law...you are posting out of context.
"Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day ....” John 8:56
Therefore Jesus is greater than Abraham.
I John, was in the Spirit [in communion with the Holy Spirit and strengthened to receive the revelation of Jesus Christ] On the Lord’s Day
and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,...I saw someone like the Son of Man; Rev 1:10
More proof that Jesus is not God...
I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at My table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior]. Matt 8:11
more proof that Jesus is not God...
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

In all your postings you have destroyed your belief that Jesus is God... nice going.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
The Lord says, “The time is coming when I will visit and I will call into account all those who are circumcised [physically] and yet uncircumcised [spiritually of the heart]—Jeremiah 9:25

For he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual renewal in Christ. His praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:11

Christ Our Cornerstone— For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Eph 2:18-19

Indeed.
God appointed Christ as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath...
Where our forerunner went in— Jesus— having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:17-20

For starters, people who disagree with the gospel of Christ are headed for perdition all on their own.
Also, it was the religious zealots casting stones:

"You are just like your ancestors: devoid of the Spirit... they became furious and gnashed their teeth. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears, ...and began to stone him; Acts 7:50-58

Concerning this we have much to say, and it is hard for you to grasp, since you have covered your ears, becoming spiritually dull of hearing. Heb 5:10-12
For they did not know about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and sought to establish their own based on works;
For the law is fulfilled in Christ. Rom10:3-4

"Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day ....” John 8:56

I John, was in the Spirit [in communion with the Holy Spirit and strengthened to receive the revelation of Jesus Christ] On the Lord’s Day
and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,...I saw someone like the Son of Man; Rev 1:10

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at My table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior]. Matt 8:11
In all your postings you have destroyed your belief that Jesus is God... nice going.
Or destroyed your belief that the eternal Son of God is mortal.
Honor the Son lest you perish in the way. Ps 2
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
JonHawk said:
The Lord says, “The time is coming when I will visit and I will call into account all those who are circumcised [physically] and yet uncircumcised [spiritually of the heart]—Jeremiah 9:25

For he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual renewal in Christ. His praise is not from men but from God. Rom 2:29
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:11

Christ Our Cornerstone— For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Eph 2:18-19

Indeed.
God appointed Christ as judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:42
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath...
Where our forerunner went in— Jesus— having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:17-20

For starters, people who disagree with the gospel of Christ are headed for perdition all on their own.
Also, it was the religious zealots casting stones:

"You are just like your ancestors: devoid of the Spirit... they became furious and gnashed their teeth. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears, ...and began to stone him; Acts 7:50-58

Concerning this we have much to say, and it is hard for you to grasp, since you have covered your ears, becoming spiritually dull of hearing. Heb 5:10-12
For they did not know about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and sought to establish their own based on works;
For the law is fulfilled in Christ. Rom10:3-4

"Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day ....” John 8:56

I John, was in the Spirit [in communion with the Holy Spirit and strengthened to receive the revelation of Jesus Christ] On the Lord’s Day
and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,...I saw someone like the Son of Man; Rev 1:10

I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will sit down [to feast at My table, and enjoy God’s promises] with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven [because they accepted Me as Savior]. Matt 8:11

Or destroyed your belief that the eternal Son of God is mortal.
Honor the Son lest you perish in the way. Ps 2
I said Jesus WAS mortal not is mortal... Jesus was resurrected to immortality. One must die first to be resurrected...
Everybody and their brother knows He resurrected from the dead, if Christ has not been raised, you are still in your sins; 1 Cor 15
I do honor the son. But that does not make him the son God... Jesus is not God, he is the son of God. Deal with it.
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. John 5:25
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Everybody and their brother knows He resurrected from the dead, if Christ has not been raised, you are still in your sins; 1 Cor 15
So why do you claim Jesus is God?
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. John 5:25
Yes, but that does not mean Jesus is God, does it?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Everybody and their brother knows He resurrected from the dead, if Christ has not been raised, you are still in your sins; 1 Cor 15
I said Jesus WAS mortal not is mortal... Jesus was resurrected to immortality.
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. John 5:25
Yes, but that does not mean Jesus is God, does it?
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10
 

Rejoran

Active member
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).

Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.
Comparing
Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness.

with

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).

Romans 4:5 does not say when. Mr. Matt Slick "added" the "when" to this verse when he said Notice that the verse says when a person believes

Baptism for salvation then does not make this verse not true, because the verse does not say when.

And even Paul did say when in this verse, baptism as a part of being saved would not make the verse not true.

In Acts 19:2-3, Paul included being baptized in Jesus's name in his definition "when" they believed.

Acts 16:33-34
The Philippian Jailer and his household are said to have come to believe in God after they were baptized.

Acts 2:41-44 called those who had accepted his message AND been baptized as believers.
 
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Rejoran

Active member
Exactly. This question of baptism's role in salvation has been debated for centuries and will be debated until Jesus comes. I personally believe that all people who faithfully follow Christ will be saved regardless of their stance on baptism. I don't think interpretational issues will keep you out of Heaven. Interpretation issues have existed since the beginning of the scriptures. The main point is that we emulate Christ. I do have issues with the "faith alone" doctrine and its devaluation of works. I think James had the same issue as well.
Why is the phrase I personally believe... more prevalent within the "by grace alone, through faith alone" community than any other group I've come across? Shouldn't we be defending God's word?
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. Gal 3:9
The main point is that we emulate Christ. I do have issues with the "faith alone" doctrine and its devaluation of works. I think James had the same issue as well.
James said that Abraham was made right with God by offering the Son of promise ,(James 2:21)
But the son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise; born by the power of the Spirit. Gal 4:23,28,29

Children born of God. John 1:13

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! 1 John 3:1

Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Galatians 3:6-8
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
What does baptism actually accomplish in the lives of those who receive it?
Good question!!! I've been Born again for 59 years, and nearing the end of life. I was baptised in the Southern Baptist manner 4 days after I was Born Again by FAITH (gifted by God in the midst of His Conviction of SIN) - because they said to do it when I became a christian so I did it. The only thing that CHANGED - were my wet clothes (I brought a dry set).

Today, I really have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER WHY, other than that Biblically, Christians were baptized when they became Born again.

Of course I've heard all the "Theological arguments", and I know the symbology. But the fact remains that NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED, other than me being obedient to what the Baptists told me.

Simple as that.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
God chose you [for salvation] through the sanctification by the Spirit and belief in Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:2
Christians were baptized when they became Born again.
And we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf. 1 Cor 10:17

For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body of believers; 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 4:3-4

We give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth; 2 Thess 2:13

So that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Rom 15:16
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
Good question!!! I've been Born again for 59 years, and nearing the end of life. I was baptised in the Southern Baptist manner 4 days after I was Born Again by FAITH (gifted by God in the midst of His Conviction of SIN) - because they said to do it when I became a christian so I did it. The only thing that CHANGED - were my wet clothes (I brought a dry set).
Because you refuse to acknowledge that you are baptized into Christ. Therefore you were baptized in the Southern Baptist manner not int Christ's death.
Today, I really have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER WHY, other than that Biblically, Christians were baptized when they became Born again.
2 Corinthians 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Of course I've heard all the "Theological arguments", and I know the symbology. But the fact remains that NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED, other than me being obedient to what the Baptists told me.

Simple as that.
That is a confession of you obeying the baptists and not Jesus. I suppose nothing has changed in those 59 years.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
@Bob Carabbio
Because you refuse to acknowledge that you are baptized into Christ. Therefore you were baptized in the Southern Baptist manner not int Christ's death.
Acts 2:38 ...each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, ...
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Rom 6:3

20 Having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself —
21 And you, who were formerly alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 Christ reconciled you in his body of flesh through death, in order to present you holy, blameless, and faultless before him—Col 1
@Bob Carabbio
That is a confession of you obeying the baptists and not Jesus. I suppose nothing has changed in those 59 years.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
What about you NB, have you believed/obeyed the gospel?

For we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the comfort. 2 Cor 1:7
For if we have been united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be in the likeness of his resurrection. Rom 6:5
Insomuch as you are partakers of Christ’s sufferings, rejoice at the revelation of his glory,1 Peter 4:13

Those who believe are indeed baptized with the Spirit.
God sealed you by giving you the Holy Spirit that He promised. Eph 1:13

Now grow up in your salvation, 3 since you have tasted that the Lord is good.
4 As you come to Him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious...
6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who believes in Him will never be confused. 1 Peter 2
 
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