Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

[GeneZ]

​

This argument starts on a faulty premise.

And, that was a faulty conclusion. You do not even have enough facts yet to make that statement, even if it were true.

 

[Thistle]

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our
ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

They were all placed into identification with Moses. He was their head, and they were the feet.

The word "baptism" appears in ancient Greek writings. It was not a new word at the time of John the Baptist.

Would you want to learn the Greek history of the word usage? If you wish to learn more about the meaning of baptism from free audio lessons, just let me know.

grace and peace

I'm familiar, I wrote a book on the subject. Baptism is being used analogically first Corinthians above. God bless.

 

[Thistle]

And, that was a faulty conclusion. You do not even have enough facts yet to make that statement, even if it were true.

I'm not sure we agree on what is and isn't factual, but you're welcome to specify which facts you believe I don't know.

 

[GeneZ]

I'm familiar, I wrote a book on the subject. Baptism is being used analogically first Corinthians above. God bless.

That was informative.... ????????????

But, that settles it.

Its a pity what has become of the body of Christ today.

 

[Thistle]

That was informative.... ????????????

It was overly exhaustive, so I didn't publish it. In reviewing other prominent books on the subject, I belatedly determined mine was also superfluous. It was not really instructive, or particularly helpful to address every passage that mentioned some form of the word baptize or baptism or all allusions to the same. The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism; and really there are only 12 passages that address that question directly. Address these, and the question is answered. The other tangents are just rationalizations.

But, that settles it.

Its a pity what has become of the body of Christ today.

A bit fatalistic for someone carrying the hope of salvation.

"For in this hope we were saved. . . ​

-from Romans 8:24 RSV​

 

[water only for JOHN]

It was overly exhaustive, so I didn't publish it. In reviewing other prominent books on the subject, I belatedly determined mine was also superfluous. It was not really instructive, or particularly helpful to address every passage that mentioned some form of the word baptize or baptism or all allusions to the same. The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism; and really there are only 12 passages that address that question directly. Address these, and the question is answered. The other tangents are just rationalizations.

A bit fatalistic for someone carrying the hope of salvation.

"For in this hope we were saved. . . ​

​

-from Romans 8:24 RSV​

The bigger Question...what is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

There's a hidden TRUTH 🤔
When christians today truly understand the reason John the Baptist baptised with water.

Your Question would be Irrelevant.

The theory of...
after John the Baptist baptised Jesus water baptism ended.

Would answer all water baptism debates and Controversies...😇



This will Answer your question..🤔
What is the meaning of Christian believers baptism ......................

The first think to understand is, Why did John the Baptist used water🤔

The answer is here in...JOHN 1:31-34
I myself did not know him, BUT THE REASON I CAME BAPTIZING WITH WATER was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a ""DOVE ""and remain on him................. And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


So with that said.....
The word BAPTIZO means to immerse in water.

John the Baptist had to immerse people in water looking for a DOVE 🕊

WHEN JESUS WAS BAPTIZE THE DOVE APPEARED...
Johns testimony was Complete..


Thats the reason Jesus refused to baptize JOHN.

JESUS'S BAPTISM WAS NOT FOR JESUS IT WAS FOR JOHN TO COMPLETE HIS TESTIMONY .

By John Completing his TESTIMONY he fulfilled all righteousness.

Water baptism was finished...

And Acts 1:1-4 will make more sense 😇
Only JOHN USED WATER TO BAPTIZE.

 

[Thistle]

The bigger Question...what is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

At least a couple of things seem to be meant by that, one miraculous and one salvific.

There's a hidden TRUTH 🤔

Nothing that was formerly hidden should still be to someone with a New Testament, outside of a few eschatological questions.

When christians today truly understand the reason John the Baptist baptised with water.

We discussed that.

Your Question would be Irrelevant.

Do you have a list of Christian doctrines that are irrelevant? If so, I'd love to have a peek at it.

The theory of...
after John the Baptist baptised Jesus water baptism ended.

That notion contridicts the sum and substance of the New Testament [John 3:1-5, 22; 4:1-2; Acts 8:36-39; etc., etc, etc.].

Would answer all water baptism debates and Controversies...😇

A counterfactual won't bare on the question of Christian baptism.

This will Answer your question..🤔
What is the meaning of Christian believers baptism ......................

There is no such thing as a dry baptism in the literal sense of the word.

The first think to understand is, Why did John the Baptist used water🤔

The answer is here in...JOHN 1:31-34
I myself did not know him, BUT THE REASON I CAME BAPTIZING WITH WATER was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a ""DOVE ""and remain on him................. And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


So with that said.....
The word BAPTIZO means to immerse in water.

John the Baptist had to immerse people in water looking for a DOVE 🕊

WHEN JESUS WAS BAPTIZE THE DOVE APPEARED...
Johns testimony was Complete..

Baptism was not completed, and as you point out above "BAPTIZO means to immerse in water." Furthermore baptism is attributed other purposes in scripture, and God is not wrong. Therefore your explanation can't be correct, on the ground that God can't be wrong.

Thats the reason Jesus refused to baptize JOHN.

We addressed this above where I explained why it's not true to say "Jesus refused to baptize JOHN." You can't settle an open question of a false predicate.

JESUS'S BAPTISM WAS NOT FOR JESUS IT WAS FOR JOHN TO COMPLETE HIS TESTIMONY .

The bible is suggestive of more than one purpose for Jesus baptism, not the least of which was that it played a role in the redemption of mankind. God carrying out multiple purposes at once is what we call providence. Its a very basic Christian doctrine.

By John Completing his TESTIMONY he fulfilled all righteousness.

Absolutely not. "All" includes all God's righteous purposes.

Water baptism was finished...

That is directly contradicted by the New Testament as you and I have discussed on these forums [e.g. Acts 8:36-39].

And Acts 1:1-4 will make more sense 😇

When did it ever not make sense?

Only JOHN USED WATER TO BAPTIZE.

That is flatly false [Acts 8:36-39]. You seem to be locked in an argument with yourself. Above you say "BAPTIZO means to immerse in water" yet here you say "Only JOHN USED WATER TO BAPTIZE." You are mistaken, if for no other reason [and there are several] than you are refuting yourself.

 

[GeneZ]

It was overly exhaustive, so I didn't publish it. In reviewing other prominent books on the subject, I belatedly determined mine was also superfluous. It was not really instructive, or particularly helpful to address every passage that mentioned some form of the word baptize or baptism or all allusions to the same. The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism; and really there are only 12 passages that address that question directly. Address these, and the question is answered. The other tangents are just rationalizations.

A bit fatalistic for someone carrying the hope of salvation.

"For in this hope we were saved. . . ​

​

-from Romans 8:24 RSV​

How many? There is only one baptism today.

Which one saves? Water. Or, the Holy Spirit?

There is one body and one Spirit. You were appointed to one hope
when you were chosen.
There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. "

Ephesians 4:4-5​

The Greek word we casually read as "hope" held special meaning of being an absolute confidence.


.

 

[Thistle]

How many? There is only one baptism today.

How many baptisms were there the day that Philip baptized the eunuch?

Which one saves? Water. Or, the Holy Spirit?

If you mean baptism in the literal sense, the only sense in which things [baptisms or anything else], can be counted to one [or any other number]; if so, then water and Spirit are two aspects of the same baptism.

There is one body and one Spirit. You were appointed to one hope
when you were chosen.
There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. "

Ephesians 4:4-5​

The Greek word we casually read as "hope" held special meaning of being an absolute confidence.
.

And we agree that, that absolute confidence rules out fatalism?

 

[water only for JOHN]

It was overly exhaustive, so I didn't publish it. In reviewing other prominent books on the subject, I belatedly determined mine was also superfluous. It was not really instructive, or particularly helpful to address every passage that mentioned some form of the word baptize or baptism or all allusions to the same. The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism; and really there are only 12 passages that address that question directly. Address these, and the question is answered. The other tangents are just rationalizations.

A bit fatalistic for someone carrying the hope of salvation.

"For in this hope we were saved. . . ​

​

-from Romans 8:24 RSV​

Thistie said;
The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism;

would it be fair to say , The first person "John the Baptist baptized "

Acts19:1-4
DID Paul preform a believer 's Baptism?
Or were


in Acts 8:37. Why did the NIV remove that verse?

Was Philip an Angel for the reason..
Scripture says immediately after coming up out of the water he was snathed away..

The Ethiopian when away rejoicing as if he was saved by the baptism.

I believe he was Baptize in the Holy Spirit 😇

Acts 19:1-5

Did Paul preform a believer s Baptism?

Or were they BAPTIZE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT 🤔

 

[GeneZ]

How many baptisms were there the day that Philip baptized the eunuch?

Of course.

They knew nothing at that point about the new way of Life for the Church. Nothing.

God honored what was not yet required to be known, for such knowledge was yet to be given.

Babies get treated one way. They are allowed to do dumb things and still receive approval. Can an adult receive smiles from others if he goes to the bathroom in his pants? But, the baby is loved. Acts has much about the growing pains of babyhood for the church.

In the beginning they were all baby Christians. All knowing nothing yet about the Christian way of life. They still knew nothing that was to become known as time passed as revelations grew in understanding. That is why the Lord raised up Paul to present the "mystery" that had been hidden, so the Church could learn about the New Way to live. Before that, they mostly only knew the Law.

What God honors with a baby Christian can cause them to be disciplined by God at a time when that believer should now be an adult. It is why we see idiot Christians who keep trying to relive their initial experiences into salvation. They never grow up. They want God to keep treating them like they were babies in Christ. And, when we look at animals in the wild. Like lions and jackals? Often time its the young ones who wander from the herd that the beasts of prey will capture and devour. We can only protect the baby Christians while they are expected to be a baby. Many Christians today are a mess because they never were willing to grow up in grace and knowledge. They want to stay in Sunday school and keep believing things that long needed correction. One of them is "water baptism."


grace and peace.......

 

[GeneZ]

Thistie said;
The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism;

would it be fair to say , The first person "John the Baptist baptized "

Acts19:1-4
DID Paul preform a believer 's Baptism?
Or were


in Acts 8:37. Why did the NIV remove that verse?

Was Philip an Angel for the reason..
Scripture says immediately after coming up out of the water he was snathed away..

The Ethiopian when away rejoicing as if he was saved by the baptism.

I believe he was Baptize in the Holy Spirit 😇

Acts 19:1-5

Did Paul preform a believer s Baptism?

Or were they BAPTIZE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT 🤔

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—
1 Corinthians 1:17a


I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one
can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of
Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ
did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence,
lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." 1 Corinthians 1:14-17​

Making water baptism an essential EMPTIES the Cross of its power!

When priorities are all wrong? God can not be right through those whom He called!


....... grace and peace

 

[water only for JOHN]

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—
1 Corinthians 1:17a


I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one
can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of
Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ
did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence,
lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." 1 Corinthians 1:14-17​

Making water baptism an essential EMPTIES the Cross of its power!

When priorities are all wrong? God can not be right through those whom He called!


....... grace and peace

Whats your thoughts on the doctrine...

Water Baptism ENDED After JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS

ONLY BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS FOR TODAY

 

[GeneZ]

Whats your thoughts on the doctrine...

Water Baptism ENDED After JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS

ONLY BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS FOR TODAY

Not true. Many water baptisms were given by the disciples of Jesus before Jesus went to the Cross.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining
and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not
Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2​

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not to replace water until after Jesus ascended and was glorified.

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as
Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he
meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up
to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been
glorified." John 7:37-39
​

Then at Pentecost God revealed with an explosion that water has been replaced by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water,
but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mark 1:8​

Some confuse speaking in tongues for the Spirit baptism, but tongues was only one of several gifts that the Spirit gave as He determines. Today with the absence of tongues, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always at work with new believers, enabling them with the grace needed for the new life we are to have in Christ.


grace and peace.......

 

[Thistle]

Thistie said;
The real question is, what is the meaning and purpose of Christian baptism;

would it be fair to say , The first person "John the Baptist baptized "

Acts19:1-4
DID Paul preform a believer 's Baptism?
Or were


in Acts 8:37. Why did the NIV remove that verse?

This is an example where your writing style makes it difficult for me to understand your point. What is it you're suggesting about " The first person "John the Baptist baptized "? So near as I can tell, we don't know who that is, "DID Paul preform a believer 's Baptism?" This is a term mostly Baptists use, and others liberally borrow. I find it non-instructive when you disconnect baptism from the moment of salvation. If I wanted to modify baptism in this way I'd call it conversion baptism. And yes, in Acts 19 Paul demonstrates that. And as for the inclusion or exclusion of verse 37, are you looking for a debate about the critical text vs. the received text? What relevance does that have?

Was Philip an Angel for the reason..

Angel means messenger. Your point?

Scripture says immediately after coming up out of the water he was snathed away..

This is frustrating; would you state the points you are trying to make, and tie their relevance to the discussion at hand?

The Ethiopian when away rejoicing as if he was saved by the baptism.

I believe he was Baptize in the Holy Spirit 😇

Every baptism is a baptism in the Holy Spirit in that sense [see 1 Corinthians 12:13]. That is the promise to "as many as the Lord our God may call" Acts 2:38-39.

Acts 19:1-5

Did Paul preform a believer s Baptism? Or were they BAPTIZE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT 🤔

They had not yet received the whole gospel message. The whole gospel message includes Acts 2:38-39. When they heard it from Paul, they believed it and this is proved by the fact that they were baptized with Christian baptism. Or as you point out above "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the sense of 1 Corinthians 12:13.

 

[Thistle]

Of course.

They knew nothing at that point about the new way of Life for the Church. Nothing.

God honored what was not yet required to be known, for such knowledge was yet to be given.

Babies get treated one way. They are allowed to do dumb things and still receive approval. Can an adult receive smiles from others if he goes to the bathroom in his pants? But, the baby is loved. Acts has much about the growing pains of babyhood for the church.

In the beginning they were all baby Christians. All knowing nothing yet about the Christian way of life. They still knew nothing that was to become known as time passed as revelations grew in understanding. That is why the Lord raised up Paul to present the "mystery" that had been hidden, so the Church could learn about the New Way to live. Before that, they mostly only knew the Law.

What God honors with a baby Christian can cause them to be disciplined by God at a time when that believer should now be an adult. It is why we see idiot Christians who keep trying to relive their initial experiences into salvation. They never grow up. They want God to keep treating them like they were babies in Christ. And, when we look at animals in the wild. Like lions and jackals? Often time its the young ones who wander from the herd that the beasts of prey will capture and devour. We can only protect the baby Christians while they are expected to be a baby. Many Christians today are a mess because they never were willing to grow up in grace and knowledge. They want to stay in Sunday school and keep believing things that long needed correction. One of them is "water baptism."


grace and peace.......

Okay, now I understand. You are an ultra-dispensationalist. This discussion will never end, because you will never believe the bible, and I will never disbelieve it, so there is no possible resolution to the issue. Had we started there, we could have save a lot of time.

 

[water only for JOHN]

Not true. Many water baptisms were given by the disciples of Jesus before Jesus went to the Cross.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining
and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not
Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2​

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not to replace water until after Jesus ascended and was glorified.

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as
Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he
meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up
to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been
glorified." John 7:37-39
​

Then at Pentecost God revealed with an explosion that water has been replaced by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water,
but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mark 1:8​

Some confuse speaking in tongues for the Spirit baptism, but tongues was only one of several gifts that the Spirit gave as He determines. Today with the absence of tongues, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always at work with new believers, enabling them with the grace needed for the new life we are to have in Christ.


grace and peace.......

What about John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of ""WATER ""and the Spirit.

What is the WATER referring to?

 

[water only for JOHN]

This is an example where your writing style makes it difficult for me to understand your point. What is it you're suggesting about " The first person "John the Baptist baptized "? So near as I can tell, we don't know who that is, "DID Paul preform a believer 's Baptism?" This is a term mostly Baptists use, and others liberally borrow. I find it non-instructive when you disconnect baptism from the moment of salvation. If I wanted to modify baptism in this way I'd call it conversion baptism. And yes, in Acts 19 Paul demonstrates that. And as for the inclusion or exclusion of verse 37, are you looking for a debate about the critical text vs. the received text? What relevance does that have?

Angel means messenger. Your point?

This is frustrating; would you state the points you are trying to make, and tie their relevance to the discussion at hand?

Every baptism is a baptism in the Holy Spirit in that sense [see 1 Corinthians 12:13]. That is the promise to "as many as the Lord our God may call" Acts 2:38-39.

They had not yet received the whole gospel message. The whole gospel message includes Acts 2:38-39. When they heard it from Paul, they believed it and this is proved by the fact that they were baptized with Christian baptism. Or as you point out above "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the sense of 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Would it be fair to say,
You believe it is possible to schedule a baptism of the Holy Spirit with your Churchs baptism calendar?

As Scripture says the Spirit is like the wind you never know when it will hit you.

 

[GeneZ]

Okay, now I understand. You are an ultra-dispensationalist. This discussion will never end, because you will never believe the bible, and I will never disbelieve it, so there is no possible resolution to the issue. Had we started there, we could have save a lot of time.

And, you're a labelist. Alinsky was good at that technique.

There is nothing wrong with dispensationalism. Its sound thinking.

 

[GeneZ]

What about John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of ""WATER ""and the Spirit.

What is the WATER referring to?

Born of ""WATER ""and the Spirit = Two births! Not one.

It was commonly accepted by the ancients that when a mother was about to deliver a baby that she "broke water." I witnessed to that happening once.

'Water' refers to the flesh being born the first time.
Then by the Spirit is for the second birth.

When water baptism was being given they never spoken of as being a "birth." It was for a sign of repentance. Not a transformation into a new kind of being.

We all need to grow to rightly divide the Word. We must learn how words were used at the time of writing. God will provide. Like He just did now.

grace and peace..........