Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

[water only for JOHN]

The first think to understand is, Why did John the Baptist used water🤔

The answer is here in...JOHN 1:31-34
I myself did not know him, BUT THE REASON I CAME BAPTIZING WITH WATER was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a ""DOVE ""and remain on him................. And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


So with that said.....
The word BAPTIZO means to immerse in water.

John the Baptist had to immerse people in water looking for a DOVE 🕊

WHEN JESUS WAS BAPTIZE THE DOVE APPEARED...
Johns testimony was Complete..


Thats the reason Jesus refused to baptize JOHN.




JESUS'S BAPTISM WAS NOT FOR JESUS IT WAS FOR JOHN TO COMPLETE HIS TESTIMONY .

By John Completing his TESTIMONY he fulfilled all righteousness.

Water baptism was finished...

 

[GeneZ]

The first think to understand is, Why did John the Baptist used water🤔

The answer is here in...JOHN 1:31-34
I myself did not know him, BUT THE REASON I CAME BAPTIZING WITH WATER was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a ""DOVE ""and remain on him................. And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


So with that said.....
The word BAPTIZO means to immerse in water.

In that case only.

But the word baptism was not exclusively to be about water. To the ancient world the word held a meaning... to be made to be placed in identification with something.

My pastor used to read ancient Greek manuscripts, and would cite examples of how the word "baptize" was used in the minds of the ancient world.

Here is an example how to the ancients to baptize does not have to pertain to water....

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

1 Corinthians 10:2​

Also...

They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand
and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able
to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that
I am baptized with?”

They said to Him, “We are able.”

So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and
with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized." Mark 10:37-39​

Keep in mind. Earlier the disciples Jesus was speaking to had already been water baptized. Jesus was not speaking about water baptism.

The baptism they were to later receive was the Holy Spirit baptism like Jesus received when the Spirit came down upon him like a dove after he accepted the water baptism from John.

 

[GeneZ]

The first think to understand is, Why did John the Baptist used water🤔

The answer is here in...JOHN 1:31-34
I myself did not know him, BUT THE REASON I CAME BAPTIZING WITH WATER was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a ""DOVE ""and remain on him................. And I myself did not know him, BUT THE ONE WHO SENT ME TO BAPTIZE WITH WATER TOLD ME ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”


So with that said.....
The word BAPTIZO means to immerse in water.

John the Baptist had to immerse people in water looking for a DOVE 🕊

WHEN JESUS WAS BAPTIZE THE DOVE APPEARED...
Johns testimony was Complete..


Thats the reason Jesus refused to baptize JOHN.




JESUS'S BAPTISM WAS NOT FOR JESUS IT WAS FOR JOHN TO COMPLETE HIS TESTIMONY .

By John Completing his TESTIMONY he fulfilled all righteousness.

Water baptism was finished...

As a man, when Jesus became baptized with the Holy Spirit.. he became the Prototype for all Christians to follow. He became the author and finisher of our faith. "Our faith." Not for the Jews. For all his suffering when being tempted prompted Him to pray to the Father for a solution. Once that was overcome, that victory was stored and prepared to be given to anyone walking in the Spirit facing the same kind of temptation. That is why our victory is really His victory, being made manifest in the Spirit filled believer who is faithfully growing in grace and knowledge.

The demons see a believer overcoming their temptations as Jesus overcame.. (as far as those temptations directed to Jesus at his humanity).

 

[Thistle]

Not sure where you are about Paul being chosen...

What could this possibly mean? Are you suggesting I don't believe Acts 9:15–16? And I might ask where you are on Peter being chosen?

". . . "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth [Peter's mouth] the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe." ​

- from Acts 15:7 NASB​

but in my opinion Paul was chosen to go to the gentiles

So you disregard Acts 15:7? Why would you believe that chapter 9 is more reliable than chapter 15? That strikes me as a curious foundation on which to build your faith.

because Peter in acts 10:48 made a mistake, should have never water baptised gentiles in water.

Baptism and water baptism are the same thing. The word baptism need not be modified.

. because they were already saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The miracle of Acts 10:44–46 gives every indication of being the same miracle as Acts 2:1–4. What seems patently obvious to me is that neither one seems to be salvific, and both appear to be demonstrative of God's election for the purpose of redemption. In both cases, the fulfillment of that conditional promise are met the same way, in the watery grave of Christian Baptism [see Acts 2:40-41;10:47-48; Romans 6:3,7].

Galatians 2: 14
Paul opposes Peter for forcing gentiles to follow old Jewish customs. ceremonial washing

It is true that by the first century many believe that Jews engaged in baptism for proselytes. It's also true that other scholars believe that practice started a little later. My point is it's not clear that proselyte baptism was at the time an " old Jewish custom."

 

[Neo]

Water Baptism was a system that had to be unlearned by the church. It was a deeply ingrained holdover from the Jewish inculcation that the disciples were conditioned by. For, we see Peter throughout Acts ordering water baptisms. But, it was not until Acts11 that Peter finally recalled the words of the Lord telling him different. Peter had been told something by Jesus just before Pentecost, and finally sank in month's ... if not a year... later!

The following passage took place shortly after the Resurrection, but before Pentecost.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5

To say the least, the disciples during those days were stunned and in a daze with all the wondrous things going on around them. Keep that in mind. Because what Jesus told his disciples in Acts 1:5 concerning water baptism was going to not fully register with Peter. Its something he will only first recall later on.

Jesus had told them that the old symbolic way of water baptism (baptism of John) was about to be replaced with the antitype reality. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter heard Jesus' words, but it did not yet fully register yet. For, Peter was walking around daily in amazement with so many amazing things shocking his mind. How would you feel if you saw Jesus resurrected and even walking through walls?

Some more background is needed: Prior to the church age the disciples ended up water baptizing more people than John the Baptist had been. It had become second nature for them to water baptize believers on a large scale.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2

As you can see.. Peter was used to water baptizing many people as a way of religious life. So, when the church age exploded on the scene, Peter simply continued without thinking with what he had become accustomed to. Just like he kept eating kosher Peter gave it no thought! So? Water baptizing all new converts was simply a continuation of the old way of life for Peter.

It took all the way to Acts 11 before Peter finally recalled the words of Jesus, words that Jesus told him in the very beginning (just before Pentecost).

Here is when Peter finally made that connection and recalled Jesus words spoken in Acts 1:5, that there was to be a new baptism for the church age to replace water! Not to mention. recalling only after water baptizing thousands in error.

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16

See! Peter had been making a mistake. He finally realized it. We do not see any more water baptisms being ordered after Acts 11.

grace and peace.....

Thank you for sharing this. I was going to post the same, but you said it much more elegant than I would have. You are exactly right. Acts is a book of transition. Peter and James understood Jewish Laws and tried to attach grace to the Law. Paul knew this thought had to be changed. This is why there was much debate about the doctrine of salvation during the Jerusalem Council in Acts chapter 15.

If the apostles all agreed upon the doctrine of salvation, then why was there much debate amongst them when discussing the doctrine of salvation in Acts 15?

 

[GeneZ]

Thank you for sharing this. I was going to post the same, but you said it much more elegant than I would have. You are exactly right. Acts is a book of transition. Peter and James understood Jewish Laws and tried to attach grace to the Law. Paul knew this thought had to be changed. This is why there was much debate about the doctrine of salvation during the Jerusalem Council in Acts chapter 15.

If the apostles all agreed upon the doctrine of salvation, then why was there much debate amongst them when discussing the doctrine of salvation in Acts 15?

Thank you... A good number of years ago I was banned rather abruptly from a Baptist forum for posting the same understanding.

We are in trouble as a people as much as we deny the Word of God. Look at all the different, rigid, closed minded churches in the USA. And, look at this last election. The Lord either blesses, or disciplines a nation on the basis of how responsive His Church is behaving in regards to the acceptance of Truth, or its rejection.

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless,
how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything,
except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
(humanism takes control)." Mat 5:13​

grace and peace.....

 

[Neo]

Thank you... A good number of years ago I was banned rather abruptly from a Baptist forum for posting the same understanding.

We are in trouble as a people as much as we deny the Word of God. Look at all the different, rigid, closed minded churches in the USA. And, look at this last election. The Lord either blesses, or disciplines a nation on the basis of how responsive His Church is behaving in regards to the acceptance of Truth, or its rejection.

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless,
how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything,
except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
(humanism takes control)." Mat 5:13​

grace and peace.....

You're welcome! I used to be a part of the Church of Christ movement. They taught baptism as necessary for salvation. When I studied this concept, I eventually had to leave such a doctrine due to it's reliance upon human effort/tradition rather than trusting in Jesus the Christ.

I eventually realized it boils down to either having a Jewish heart, or a Gentile heart. Jews had it hard to go against traditions to fully trust in Christ.

Thus, most Jews now do not believe Jesus is the Christ. A heart of a Jew trusts in self to be saved. A heart of a Gentile trusts in what Christ did to save.

To realize Acts is a transition from the Law to trusting in Christ (grace) is very important. Paul was humbled by blindness to realize this. Peter was taught by Jesus over the years and by the sheet being lowered for him to eventually remember and understand the teachings of Christ.

As for James, I'm not fully convinced he fully understood grace. He might have, but his thinking remained mainly Jewish in nature.

 

[GeneZ]

You're welcome! I used to be a part of the Church of Christ movement. They taught baptism as necessary for salvation. When I studied this concept, I eventually had to leave such a doctrine due to it's reliance upon human effort/tradition rather than trusting in Jesus the Christ.

I eventually realized it boils down to either having a Jewish heart, or a Gentile heart. Jews had it hard to go against traditions to fully trust in Christ.

Thus, most Jews now do not believe Jesus is the Christ. A heart of a Jew trusts in self to be saved. A heart of a Gentile trusts in what Christ did to save.

To realize Acts is a transition from the Law to trusting in Christ (grace) is very important. Paul was humbled by blindness to realize this. Peter was taught by Jesus over the years and by the sheet being lowered for him to eventually remember and understand the teachings of Christ.

As for James, I'm not fully convinced he fully understood grace. He might have, but his thinking remained mainly Jewish in nature.

First of all... I am one of quite a few who will shoot down the"Jews don't believe" theory. Jews are a very tiny percentage of the world's population. Therefore, you will not see many Jewish believers per-se. Yet, with the billions of gentiles in the world? Many proportionately do not believe as well for their own reasons. You don't have to be Jewish to reject Jesus Christ. Look at all the billions of gentile Hindus and Muslims.. and whatever other pagan religions exist out there today. You are only going to see a few Jews that believe simply because there are only a few Jews in the world.

As for James?

James was dealing with a particular problem that those who do not grasp the context in which the epistle was written will end up with never ending theological debates, with no way out.

When James wrote his epistle, the Jewish believers in Jerusalem were having their businesses boycotted by the non believing Jews. Apparently, many were without the means to keep surviving, and had been asking for help from their more well to do church members. These well off ones were telling those in need to "keep the faith, and things will work out for them." James was furious with them, and was telling them they would not be justified to be calling themselves a follower of Christ if they did not do good works to help these people. That God was requiring works from them to save these people from total disaster.

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them,
“Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body,
what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

These wealthy Jewish believers apparently were assuming they we are all saved simply because they had faith. James slapped them down and said that they were no better than demons who also believe there is one God. If you want to justify your belief you are saved? You better start acting better than a demon!

That was the gist of James' rebuking these pampered well to do believers. James was angry at them. These wealthy Jews needed to start acting like they are truly children of God, for the whole world was watching them. And, as they just treated their brothers and sisters in need? They were NOT JUSTIFIED in making the claim they were saved in Christ. James was telling them to do what was needed to prove that their faith is real.

Too many theologians will latch onto the word "justified" with tunnel vision and run with it not knowing what tree they just plucked it from.


grace and peace.......

 

[Neo]

First of all... I am one of quite a few who will shoot down the"Jews don't believe" theory. Jews are a very tiny percentage of the world's population. Therefore, you will not see many Jewish believers per-se. Yet, with the billions of gentiles in the world? Many proportionately do not believe as well for their own reasons. You don't have to be Jewish to reject Jesus Christ. Look at all the billions of gentile Hindus and Muslims.. and whatever other pagan religions exist out there today. You are only going to see a few Jews that believe simply because there are only a few Jews in the world.

As for James?

James was dealing with a particular problem that those who do not grasp the context in which the epistle was written will end up with never ending theological debates, with no way out.

When James wrote his epistle, the Jewish believers in Jerusalem were having their businesses boycotted by the non believing Jews. Apparently, many were without the means to keep surviving, and had been asking for help from their more well to do church members. These well off ones were telling those in need to "keep the faith, and things will work out for them." James was furious with them, and was telling them they would not be justified to be calling themselves a follower of Christ if they did not do good works to help these people. That God was requiring works from them to save these people from total disaster.

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them,
“Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body,
what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

These wealthy Jewish believers apparently were assuming they we are all saved simply because they had faith. James slapped them down and said that they were no better than demons who also believe there is one God. If you want to justify your belief you are saved? You better start acting better than a demon!

That was the gist of James' rebuking these pampered well to do believers. James was angry at them. These wealthy Jews needed to start acting like they are truly children of God, for the whole world was watching them. And, as they just treated their brothers and sisters in need? They were NOT JUSTIFIED in making the claim they were saved in Christ. James was telling them to do what was needed to prove that their faith is real.

Too many theologians will latch onto the word "justified" with tunnel vision and run with it not knowing what tree they just plucked it from.


grace and peace.......

I understand this perspective. It is important to remember the letter of James was written before the Jerusalem Council met (according to most scholars).

James writes very clearly that works are needed to be justified because he also uses specific examples of works justifying individuals. He understood Abraham to be justified by offering his son on the alter. James also uses Rahab's works to be justified.

I bet Paul and James discussed these examples when the Jerusalem Council met in Acts 15. This is one of the reasons there was much debate between the elders and apostles.

I would be curious to see what James would have written after the Jerusalem Council meeting.

I personally believe that since James was the leader of the church in Jerusalem that he never fully understood grace in his heart and the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians slowly separated from one another in doctrine.

Then eventually they became no longer Jewish Christians, but went back to Jewish traditions and doctrines. The remnant of followers of Christ remain from the Gentile Christians and continue to this day.

 

[GeneZ]

I understand this perspective. It is important to remember the letter of James was written before the Jerusalem Council met (according to most scholars).

James writes very clearly that works are needed to be justified because he also uses specific examples of works justifying individuals. He understood Abraham to be justified by offering his son on the alter. James also uses Rahab's works to be justified.

I bet Paul and James discussed these examples when the Jerusalem Council met in Acts 15. This is one of the reasons there was much debate between the elders and apostles.

I would be curious to see what James would have written after the Jerusalem Council meeting.

I personally believe that since James was the leader of the church in Jerusalem that he never fully understood grace in his heart and the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians slowly separated from one another in doctrine.

Then eventually they became no longer Jewish Christians, but went back to Jewish traditions and doctrines. The remnant of followers of Christ remain from the Gentile Christians and continue to this day.

I just realized something important.. The unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem were closely watching the believers.

The Jews who were unbelievers were hyper works oriented... The Pharisees saw to that.

Instead of the usual "works to be saved"... God was showing them, "works because you are saved."

The believers works would have been seen as a positive witness to those unbelievers. Showing them that you still do works after salvation.

But, how can they know these believers had faith that justifies? Their faith will be seen by the superior quality of their works!

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do." - Ephesians 2:10
​

God was knowing there was going to be great persecution in those days in Jerusalem. So, there were works pre-planned by God to be done as a witness to the cumpulsive disorder works crowd. It was designed to leave the unbelieving Jews to be without excuse, who were always seeking works as the means to be saved.

There was more going on than meets the eye.

Grace and peace!

 

[Neo]

I just realized something important.. The unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem were closely watching the believers.

The Jews who were unbelievers were hyper works oriented... The Pharisees saw to that.

Instead of the usual "works to be saved"... God was showing them, "works because you are saved."

The believers works would have been seen as a positive witness to those unbelievers. Showing them that you still do works after salvation.

But, how can they know these believers had faith that justifies? Their faith will be seen by the superior quality of their works!

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do." - Ephesians 2:10
​

God was knowing there was going to be great persecution in those days in Jerusalem. So, there were works pre-planned by God to be done as a witness to the cumpulsive disorder works crowd. It was designed to leave the unbelieving Jews to be without excuse, who were always seeking works as the means to be saved.

There was more going on than meets the eye.

Grace and peace!

Works are very important. A good quote i read from the Transforming Grace book is,

"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works leads to righteousness."

It also states,

"It's not what we do that determines who we are; it's who we are that determines what we do."

In other words, we are not saved because we do good works. Instead, it's because we are saved that we do good works.

Anyway, it is very important to understand the following passage:

"
(A)But some men came down from Judea and were teaching (B)the brothers, “Unless you are (C)circumcised (D)according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and (E)debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and (F)some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to (G)the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, (H)being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, (I)describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and (J)brought great joy to all (K)the brothers.[a] 4 (L)When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and (M)the apostles and the elders, and (N)they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to (O)the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, (P)“It is necessary (Q)to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 (R)The (S)apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much (T)debate... (Acts 15:1-7)

Verses 6 and 7 are very enlightening. It shows the elders and apostles got together to discuss the topic of salvation. The interesting thing is they didn't say,

"Oh it's obvious how we ate saved. We all agree on the method of salvation."

No, instead there was much debate between the apostles and elders. Think about this. Really think about this!

The doctrine of salvation was not completely decided upon until Peter stood up and explained all he learned and expressed we are saved by grace through faith.

This is the point in time when the doctrine of salvation was officially agreed upon by the apostles and elders.

Very, very, very interesting and important to know when discussing the doctrine of salvation.

 

[GeneZ]

Works are very important. A good quote i read from the Transforming Grace book is,

"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works leads to righteousness."

It also states,

"It's not what we do that determines who we are; it's who we are that determines what we do."

In other words, we are not saved because we do good works. Instead, it's because we are saved that we do good works.

Worth repeating....


"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works leads to righteousness."

It also states,

"It's not what we do that determines who we are; it's who we are that determines what we do."


(One little thing I might amplify)

"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works enables His righteousness to be worked out in us."



As we know... when our flesh controls us? We as Christians can not do God's will. We may desire to God's will in our soul, but as long as the flesh is in an active mode (unconfessed sin) the flesh will abort our attempts to walk in righteousness.

Which leads to.. Why must we be saved by grace?

If left alone to our own natural power? We could never believe in God.
For our flesh will dominate and censor our soul, just like the fake new media does to the public.

So? What does this grace do in securing our salvation?

God's grace (provided by the Holy Spirit) takes our flesh and oppresses it into silence.
Thus freeing up our soul to make a choice without hindrance.

That grace that brings salvation is righteously imposed by God upon all men at some time in their life.
Meaning? When under God's grace? A soul that rejects God can not use his fallen nature for his excuse.
While under grace his soul then becomes just like the fallen angels who freely rejected God from their sinless state.

Therefore. That is why.. No man will be with excuse.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12
​

Not all men end up submitting fully to that grace that brings salvation. They do not enter into regeneration.

But, for many unbelievers who did allow God's grace to work into their lives up to a limited point? They will benefit, and they become the unbelievers we see around us who end up becoming moral and upright law abiding citizens.


grace and peace.........

 

[Neo]

Worth repeating....


"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works leads to righteousness."

It also states,

"It's not what we do that determines who we are; it's who we are that determines what we do."


One little thing I might change.



"Works taught before grace leads to legalism. Grace taught before works enables His righteousness to be worked out in us."

As we know... When our flesh controls us we can not do God's will. We may desire to God's will in our soul, but as long as the flesh is in active mode it will abort all attempts to walk in righteousness.

So? Why must we be saved by grace?

If left alone to our own power? We could never believe in God. For the flesh will dominate and censor our soul like the fake new media does to the public.

So? What does this grace do in our salvation?

It takes the flesh and oppresses it into silence. Thus freeing up our soul to make a choice.

That grace is righteously imposed by God upon all men. Meaning? When under God's grace a soul that rejects God can not use his fallen nature as his excuse. He then becomes just like the fallen angels who rejected God from a sinless state.

Therefore. No man will be with excuse.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age." Titus 2:11-12
​

Not all men end up submitting fully to that grace that brings salvation. They do not enter into regeneration. But, for those unbelievers who did allow God's grace to work into their lives up to a point? They will benefit, and they are the unbelievers we see around us who end up becoming moral and upright, law abiding citizens.

Indeed. I also learned in the Transforming Grace book that there is a difference between God's salvational grace (justification) and God's transformational grace (sanctification).

Justifying grace deals with our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith.

Sanctifying grace deals with our growth into Christ likeness. This type of grace does not deal with salvation, but Christians growing in their works (doing what is right and stopping doing what is wrong). This is a life long process.

 

[SteveB]

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

I'd say that Acts 10 gives a practical solution to this one.
Peter comes to the house of a Roman centurion, at the command of God and once the gospel is given, the Holy Spirit falls on the gentiles and leaves the believers in Peter's group astonished, and surprised.
To the point where Peter tells them, can we refuse them?

Act 10:44-48 WEB 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word. 45 They of the circumcision who believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was also poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in other languages and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just like us.” 48 He commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay some days.​

 

[GeneZ]

I'd say that Acts 10 gives a practical solution to this one.
Peter comes to the house of a Roman centurion, at the command of God and once the gospel is given, the Holy Spirit falls on the gentiles and leaves the believers in Peter's group astonished, and surprised.
To the point where Peter tells them, can we refuse them?

Act 10:44-48 WEB 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word. 45 They of the circumcision who believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was also poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in other languages and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just like us.” 48 He commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay some days.​

Peter was making a stupid mistake. One we all could have made if we were in his shoes.

They were all new to Christianity. And, as babes in Christ, had much yet to learn about the new church age way of life that exploded on the scene. Peter at that earlier time did not yet understand that the Holy Spirit Baptism was to replace water baptism, though the Lord told Peter about water being replaced by the Spirit 9 chapters earlier in Acts.

Acts 1:4-5 - Peter was told something that apparently went in one ear and out the other.... Here is what the resurrected Lord told him!

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you
have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”​

Peter in all the excitement surrounding him in the First chapter of Acts quickly forgot what the Lord told him. It was not until Acts 11 that Peter (by the Holy Spirit) finally recalled those words spoken to him in Acts 1:4-5!

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized
with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus
Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

It was then that Peter finally had it sink in.

So? Why was Peter commanding those water baptisms?

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining
and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not
Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."​

Peter and the disciples had been water baptizing large numbers of people while being a disciple under Jesus! It became a way of life for Peter. John 4:1-2 tells us that Jesus' disciples were at one point baptizing more people than even John the Baptist!

Because of performing all those water baptisms? It had become an unquestioned way of life for Peter. Peter gave it no thought to water baptize until later when the Holy Spirit caused him to begin to see the big picture.

We do not see Peter, or anyone else, commanding water baptisms after Jesus' words seen in Acts 1:4-5 sunk in, in Peter's mind.

All baby Christians do stupid things in ignorance.... What many fail to see, is that in Acts chapter 2, everyone was like a new born baby in Christ,. They yet had to learn to speak and walk in faith.

grace and peace...

 

[Our Lord's God]

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

Your "reasoning" is incorrect because you plainly don't know what "faith in Christ" means.

 

[GeneZ]

We are justified ONTO salvation simply by faith.

We then are to become justified IN saying we have salvation by revealing fruit unto works.


Man is justified by works in his claiming he is saved by faith.

 

[Slyzr]

The Dispensation of the Church began at Pentecost. Paul was raised up to explain it when they were ready for it.

Not really, the writing was on the wall.

Look at it in the natural ......

The Jew's were not going to bow down to Rome.


A fight and dispersion / diaspora was sure to follow.


The "dispensation" of the age was for the Jewish continuance.

bd





'

 

[Thistle]

If we could only bring John the Baptist back and have him tour all the churches that teach water baptism is for today...

John died before the church age. He would have nothing to show the church that we don't know better than he. He would be asking us questions we know the answer to, and he didn't live long enough to learn. We have 100% of God's revelation on this subject. John the Baptist did not.

 

[Ignatius]

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness," (Romans 4:5).


Notice that the verse says when a person believes, his faith is credited as righteousness. If baptism is necessary for salvation then this verse cannot be true.

We are either justified by faith when we have faith, or we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

If we are justified at baptism, then we are not justified by faith when we have faith.

No we are not