Are we saved by our own efforts or are we saved by God's efforts ?

Where are you in the world did you get saved because you wanted or because you asked for it ? Can we be saved because Jesus wanted it or becuase you were destined tell you own testimony how you are saved ? Tell us how you were saved and what you wanted was by your will or by God's will. Because you can't be saved by your own efforts only by God's who put you in your life ?

It took both Gods efforts and our efforts. At Matthew 7:21--Jesus assures all--those living( now) to do his Fathers will( in this satan ruled system) get to enter his kingdom. One must disown themselves and obey every teaching Jesus gave us.
 
The Ot requires the Jew to work to keep all the OT perfectly in order to justified by that law (Gal 3:10) but the NT gospel salvation is by grace through obedient faith and not the work of flawless law keeping.
Also if you notice in the OT, keeping the law is never mentioned as a road to heaven, what is often said is that if they do what God instructs, it will go well for them in the land.
The law is not about how to reach heaven, but about how to find God's blessing during your life on earth
 
Also if you notice in the OT, keeping the law is never mentioned as a road to heaven, what is often said is that if they do what God instructs, it will go well for them in the land.
The law is not about how to reach heaven, but about how to find God's blessing during your life on earth
Yes, ...... "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."
 
Yes, ...... "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."


Gods word assures--John 3:36--Those not obeying Jesus( every teaching)remain in Gods wrath. It as well teached-obeying Jesus is proof of ones love for him.
 
Where are you in the world did you get saved because you wanted or because you asked for it ? Can we be saved because Jesus wanted it or becuase you were destined tell you own testimony how you are saved ? Tell us how you were saved and what you wanted was by your will or by God's will. Because you can't be saved by your own efforts only by God's who put you in your life ?
Paul explains this to us in Acts, "The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us.

I grope for him and found him.
 
Paul explains this to us in Acts, "The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us.

I grope for him and found him.

Glad to hear you found the true living God= The Abrahamic God= YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God taught by The Israelite religion from Moses on up until this very day, taught, served and worshipped by Jesus and every bible writer when they attended those places of worship until they were cut off-Matthew 23:38.
 
Paul explains this to us in Acts, "The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us.

I grope for him and found him.
I also groped for Him. though somewhat ignorantly in the beginning until I found Him
 
You just answer your first question know that only thru God's effort are you saved everything else is minimal your not relying 100% in God's help and Jesus lioved in 100% truly is the same discusion we have in freewill you don't put your will in God's will there kjw47 and to do that you must pray and pray like Jesus and like he said rely on God's intervention. Just remember when A storm comes it doens'0t mean you stay in the storm and rely on God and just don't move i'm not meaning that !

But you move from the storm even jesus when he was perseuted he left when he was threaten by people in vilages by pharisees and threaten to stone him he left rather to enter in conflict. You move from the storm and run if God preordained you move in the storm and survive he's will he will make it happen just for you to be part of his plan in special way. No your not putting things in God's hands you have conflict with you will and God's will ebcause you say that but you cannot complete the task.

You speak like your scared and can put your will because you cannot understand to be in his will 100% I have been in 100% with him in soemtimes and sometimes 88% and 45% sometimes 50% trust him and someitmes I failed the other 50% know yo can't have 100% right away but Jesus he had always 100% that is why. He said he came here being God as the son and showing man to be the second Adam thru trusting in the lord in pitchblack darkness by praying and only praying he did not bring angels and when Judah who betray him wanted force him like some evangelical pastors say so to bring A host of angels to bring his judgement and save him so the romans would be destroy by some historians account.

Jesus did nothing but did what he want meant to do pay for your sins and did not come with sword but that will be in the end times. And for you to get 100% pray and pray and alsoe love thy neighbor do his will and do what ephesians 5:18-20

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pur purpsoe since the Eden was for to sing like in heaven and sing hossanah hossanah hossanh that is our purpose. Can we do still the plan of Eden is what the plan of God is ? Yes and jesus said

Luke 24:44
Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

Jesus is the second Adam and he's purose was for us to be like Jesus to do his will by relying in him 100% you can't do the 100% I reccomend you test yourself and do what he wants !
 
You just answer your first question know that only thru God's effort are you saved everything else is minimal your not relying 100% in God's help and Jesus lioved in 100% truly is the same discusion we have in freewill you don't put your will in God's will there kjw47 and to do that you must pray and pray like Jesus and like he said rely on God's intervention. Just remember when A storm comes it doens'0t mean you stay in the storm and rely on God and just don't move i'm not meaning that !

But you move from the storm even jesus when he was perseuted he left when he was threaten by people in vilages by pharisees and threaten to stone him he left rather to enter in conflict. You move from the storm and run if God preordained you move in the storm and survive he's will he will make it happen just for you to be part of his plan in special way. No your not putting things in God's hands you have conflict with you will and God's will ebcause you say that but you cannot complete the task.

You speak like your scared and can put your will because you cannot understand to be in his will 100% I have been in 100% with him in soemtimes and sometimes 88% and 45% sometimes 50% trust him and someitmes I failed the other 50% know yo can't have 100% right away but Jesus he had always 100% that is why. He said he came here being God as the son and showing man to be the second Adam thru trusting in the lord in pitchblack darkness by praying and only praying he did not bring angels and when Judah who betray him wanted force him like some evangelical pastors say so to bring A host of angels to bring his judgement and save him so the romans would be destroy by some historians account.

Jesus did nothing but did what he want meant to do pay for your sins and did not come with sword but that will be in the end times. And for you to get 100% pray and pray and alsoe love thy neighbor do his will and do what ephesians 5:18-20

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pur purpsoe since the Eden was for to sing like in heaven and sing hossanah hossanah hossanh that is our purpose. Can we do still the plan of Eden is what the plan of God is ? Yes and jesus said

Luke 24:44
Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

Jesus is the second Adam and he's purose was for us to be like Jesus to do his will by relying in him 100% you can't do the 100% I reccomend you test yourself and do what he wants !


I have no fear that i am wrong. I have studied religions. history of true God worship, and carefully studied Jesus teachings. God put the effort up, now its our effort that keeps us standing. Praying is included in our efforts. Maybe you missed what Jesus taught. He was clear--Matt 7:21--Those who live now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom-- That will Jesus summed up in a single teaching---Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY utterance from God--100% for sure he meant it. Thats OT-NT over and over, studying every utterance and applying them--That is Fathers will. And the bible isclear--Proof of ones love is by obeying.--There is no pick and choose. Jesus said every utterance and he meant every word he taught.
 
He [Jesus] was clear--Matt 7:21--Those who live now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom--
Hello Keiw, I have a question or two for you about v21. Here's v21 again, along with the short passage that it's taken from.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ~‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’~
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

You said that obedience/doing the will of the Father is the key to our being able to enter His Kingdom. I don't disagree, but what of the folks in the following verse, those who the Lord ends up sending into the Lake of Fire :unsure: Which of their deeds (see v22 above) resulted in them being condemned/sent into the Lake of Fire, instead of into God's Kingdom :unsure:

Everything that the folks in v22 mentioned doing seem to be acts of obedience on their part, yes, acts that they did in the Lord's very Name, in point of fact. So, if obedience is the key to entering God's Kingdom, why didn't it work for them :unsure: Were they not obedient "enough" perhaps? And if that's true, how can we know if 'we' are being obedient "enough" to be saved :unsure:

It seems clear that the folks in v22 were very surprised by the Lord's judgment and condemnation of them at the Great White Throne. Since that is the case, what do you think that we need to do to avoid the very same fate?

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

.
 
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Hello Keiw, I have a question or two for you about v21. Here's v21 again, along with the short passage that it's taken from.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ~‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’~
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

You said that obedience/doing the will of the Father is the key to our being able to enter His Kingdom. I don't disagree, but what of the folks in the following verse, those who the Lord ends up sending into the Lake of Fire :unsure: Which of their deeds (see v22 above) resulted in them being condemned/sent into the Lake of Fire, instead of into God's Kingdom :unsure:

Everything that the folks in v22 mentioned doing seem to be acts of obedience on their part, yes, acts that they did in the Lord's very Name, in point of fact. So, if obedience is the key to entering God's Kingdom, why didn't it work for them :unsure: Were they not obedient "enough" perhaps? And if that's true, how can we know if 'we' are being obedient "enough" to be saved :unsure:

It seems clear that the folks in v22 were very surprised by the Lord's judgment and condemnation of them at the Great White Throne. Since that is the case, what do you think that we need to do to avoid the very same fate?

Thanks :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

.

Some bibles sat you who work iniquity( lawlessness)= practice a sin. At Hebrews 10:26--it says there is no sacrifice left for any who practice a sin. Jesus referred to those thinking they serve God and yet practice a sin as one is lukewarm , he says it to the congregation of Laodecia in revelation, he says he will vomit those out.
2 lists of unacceptable sins= 1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--both spots say--will NOT enter Gods kingdom( if they practice one) Paul used spiritism at Gal-The Greek word = Pharmacia-thus drug addiction is apart of spiritism, so along with all the false god worship on earth and those 2 lists=99% will not enter Gods kingdom. That is sad, but Jesus taught-FEW will find the road to life.
Many fail to realize that not only is there a table of God, but a table of demons as well present in the earth( 1Cor 10:21) God says if one partakes off the table of demons they cannot partake off his table, but many are walking that path of trying to partake of both.
 
Some bibles sat you who work iniquity( lawlessness)= practice a sin. At Hebrews 10:26--it says there is no sacrifice left for any who practice a sin. Jesus referred to those thinking they serve God and yet practice a sin as one is lukewarm , he says it to the congregation of Laodecia in revelation, he says he will vomit those out.
2 lists of unacceptable sins= 1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--both spots say--will NOT enter Gods kingdom( if they practice one) Paul used spiritism at Gal-The Greek word = Pharmacia-thus drug addiction is apart of spiritism, so along with all the false god worship on earth and those 2 lists=99% will not enter Gods kingdom. That is sad, but Jesus taught-FEW will find the road to life.
Many fail to realize that not only is there a table of God, but a table of demons as well present in the earth( 1Cor 10:21) God says if one partakes off the table of demons they cannot partake off his table, but many are walking that path of trying to partake of both.
So, you believe that they were partially obedient, but that there was (along with the obedient/faithful things that they told us about) some kind of hidden/unmentioned sinfulness that Jesus (of course) knew about, and that 'it' was the basis of His condemnation of them, yes? If that's so, then (again) how do we know how obedient we need to be (to be saved), or do you believe that anything shy of perfect obedience, from salvation to the grave, will result in our condemnation :unsure:

One last thing (from v23 this time), don't you find it interesting that the Lord seemed to base His judgment/condemnation of the folks in v22 on the fact that He "never knew" them, instead of on the basis of their failure to be obedient enough. Why do you think that He said that (after all, He made them, surely He "knew" them, yes?), and for that matter, what difference could "knowing them" possibly make (if obedience to the word of God is the thing that really counts) :unsure:

Thanks again!

~Deuteronomy


Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’’’
 
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So, you believe that they were partially obedient, but that there was (along with the obedient/faithful things that they told us about) some kind of hidden/unmentioned sinfulness that Jesus (of course) knew about, and that 'it' was the basis of His condemnation of them, yes? If that's so, then (again) how do we know how obedient we need to be (to be saved), or do you believe that anything shy of perfect obedience, from salvation to the grave, will result in our condemnation :unsure:

One last thing (from v23 this time), don't you find it interesting that the Lord seemed to base His judgment/condemnation of the folks in v22 on the fact that He "never knew" them, instead of on the basis of their failure to be obedient enough. Why do you think that He said that (after all, He made them, surely He "knew" them, yes?), and for that matter, what difference could "knowing them" possibly make (if obedience to the word of God is the thing that really counts) :unsure:

Thanks again!

~Deuteronomy


Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’’’


Jesus told all--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--those study OT-NT over and over to learn and apply every utterance to the best of their abilities. Jesus' real teachers teach the flock EVERY utterance without fail, thus all can look at their teachers to see if they belong to Jesus or are these-2Cor 11:12-15
 
Jesus told all--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--those study OT-NT over and over to learn and apply every utterance to the best of their abilities. Jesus' real teachers teach the flock EVERY utterance without fail, thus all can look at their teachers to see if they belong to Jesus or are these-2Cor 11:12-15
Hello again Keiw, I'm not sure that I'm following you (about how obedient we need to be to be saved, that is) :unsure: On the one hand you talk about "every utterance" of God needing to be obeyed, but then (on the other) only needing to do so, "to the best of our abilities".

What does that mean exactly ("obeying God ~to the best of our abilities~", that is), and perhaps most importantly, how can we know whether we are truly doing so or not :unsure:

My guess is that the folks in Matthew 7:22, the ones who were doing all of those wondrous things throughout their lives here in Jesus' Name, believed that they were doing all that they needed to do, and perhaps even more (and I'm sure they thought they were doing their best), but they were clearly wrong about that, sadly :(

So how do we ~KNOW~ (because I'm certain that you don't want to find yourself in the same boat that the folks in v22 will be in any more than I do)!!

Thanks for your help :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
.
 
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Hello (yet again) @keiw, this passage kept coming to mind when I was thinking about how obedient we need to be to be saved, so I thought that I'd post it to see what your thoughts about it are.

Luke 10
25 A lawyer stood up and put Jesus to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27 And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ~ALL~ YOUR HEART, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR ~AS YOURSELF~.”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
.
As I read that, I thought that I may finally be starting to understand what you meant (about obeying, "to the best of our abilities"), because NO ONE could ever do that, do what the Lord Jesus tells us that we must do to live (well, He did, of course).

It didn't take the lawyer (the one who recited the commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) anytime at all to realize that he didn't measure up either (to the basic standards that the Bible sets for righteousness/for entering Heaven), seeing that he immediately tried to justify himself to Jesus.

So, there must be a somewhat lower standard then, yes :unsure:

But what is that standard, and how can we know if/when we've done enough (in our Judge's eyes) to meet it :unsure:

Thanks again!!

~Deuteronomy

.
 
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Hello again Keiw, I'm not sure that I'm following you (about how obedient we need to be to be saved, that is) :unsure: On the one hand you talk about "every utterance" of God needing to be obeyed, but then (on the other) only needing to do so, "to the best of our abilities".

What does that mean exactly ("obeying God ~to the best of our abilities~", that is), and perhaps most importantly, how can we know whether we are truly doing so or not :unsure:

My guess is that the folks in Matthew 7:22, the ones who were doing all of those wondrous things throughout their lives here in Jesus' Name, believed that they were doing all that they needed to do, and perhaps even more (and I'm sure they thought they were doing their best), but they were clearly wrong about that, sadly :(

So how do we ~KNOW~ (because I'm certain that you don't want to find yourself in the same boat that the folks in v22 will be in any more than I do)!!

Thanks for your help :)

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
.

Jesus was clear at Matt 7:21-23--- Those who work iniquity= practiced a sin.
 
Hello (yet again) @keiw, this passage kept coming to mind when I was thinking about how obedient we need to be to be saved, so I thought that I'd post it to see what your thoughts about it are.

Luke 10
25 A lawyer stood up and put Jesus to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27 And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ~ALL~ YOUR HEART, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ~ALL~ YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR ~AS YOURSELF~.”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
.
As I read that, I thought that I may finally be starting to understand what you meant (about obeying, "to the best of our abilities"), because NO ONE could ever do that, do what the Lord Jesus tells us that we must do to live (well, He did, of course).

It didn't take the lawyer (the one who recited the commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) anytime at all to realize that he didn't measure up either (to the basic standards that the Bible sets for righteousness/for entering Heaven), seeing that he immediately tried to justify himself to Jesus.

So, there must be a somewhat lower standard then, yes :unsure:

But what is that standard, and how can we know if/when we've done enough (in our Judge's eyes) to meet it :unsure:

Thanks again!!

~Deuteronomy

.

First of all- only the anointed little flock( Luke 12:32) is promised heaven-these are numbered-144,000( Rev 14:3) this is the bride of Christ, to rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)
2Peter 3:14-- Hence, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things do your utmost to be found finally by him, spotless and unblemished and in peace.)= do not sin to the best of ones ability--but all do sin, never practice a sin. Its the practice of a sin that is condemned.
 
Where are you in the world did you get saved because you wanted or because you asked for it ? Can we be saved because Jesus wanted it or becuase you were destined tell you own testimony how you are saved ? Tell us how you were saved and what you wanted was by your will or by God's will. Because you can't be saved by your own efforts only by God's who put you in your life ?
Salvation is a broad term for many people. I believe that salvation is a synonym for justification. I believe that salvation happened, and was accomplished at the cross, by Christ's shed blood, not at faith.

I do not believe that anyone wants to be saved or asks to be saved. The scriptures are clear that all of mankind was imputed with Adam's guilt when he sinned. If we are worse off than Adam was in the garden, how can I make a better decision?

Therefore I believe that all of salvation was conditioned on Christ and He fulfilled it completely when He said "It is finished" on Calvary. All of God's people were justified in Christ and "saved" from their sin.
 
Salvation is a broad term for many people. I believe that salvation is a synonym for justification. I believe that salvation happened, and was accomplished at the cross, by Christ's shed blood, not at faith.

I do not believe that anyone wants to be saved or asks to be saved. The scriptures are clear that all of mankind was imputed with Adam's guilt when he sinned. If we are worse off than Adam was in the garden, how can I make a better decision?

Therefore I believe that all of salvation was conditioned on Christ and He fulfilled it completely when He said "It is finished" on Calvary. All of God's people were justified in Christ and "saved" from their sin.
You have just told us that the Bible is being pointless to encourage evangelism.
 
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