Arians sing against the three are one - controversies in the early centuries

Steven Avery

Steven Avery

Well-known member
"the Arians, who sang their Psalmody antiphonally, intercalating the verses with the blasphemous refrain, “

"And now where are they that affirm that the Three are One?”
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The Elements of Plainsong: Compiled from a Series of Lectures Delivered Before the Members of the Plainsong & Mediaeval Music Society (1895)
Henry Bremridge Briggs
https://books.google.com/books?id=CicQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57

This is one of many indications that the "three are one" was a hot-button issue in the early centuries. This one directly involved John Chrysostom. (347-407) whose side came up with competing song-fests!

In the Greek, there is strong indication that the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text began early. This could easily lead to disputes where one side (which could be Sabellian, or perhaps Trinitarian) is affirming the three are one, and the other side is attacking the concept.

In this thread, I plan to show a number of different historical evidences that shed light on the controversy.
 
Steven Avery said:
The Elements of Plainsong: Compiled from a Series of Lectures Delivered Before the Members of the Plainsong & Mediaeval Music Society (1895)
Henry Bremridge Briggs
https://books.google.com/books?id=CicQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57

This is one of many indications that the "three are one" was a hot-button issue in the early centuries. This one directly involved John Chrysostom. (347-407) whose side came up with competing song-fests!

In the Greek, there is strong indication that the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text began early. This could easily lead to disputes where one side (which could be Sabellian, or perhaps Trinitarian) is affirming the three are one, and the other side is attacking the concept.

In this thread, I plan to show a number of different historical evidences that shed light on the controversy.
Click to expand...

Doesn't say what you think it says. I've checked the Greek and the Latin.

In fact you have varying translations on your blog already, so you should know better.
 
Steven Avery said:
The Elements of Plainsong: Compiled from a Series of Lectures Delivered Before the Members of the Plainsong & Mediaeval Music Society (1895)
Henry Bremridge Briggs
https://books.google.com/books?id=CicQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57

This is one of many indications that the "three are one" was a hot-button issue in the early centuries. This one directly involved John Chrysostom. (347-407) whose side came up with competing song-fests!

In the Greek, there is strong indication that the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text began early. This could easily lead to disputes where one side (which could be Sabellian, or perhaps Trinitarian) is affirming the three are one, and the other side is attacking the concept.

In this thread, I plan to show a number of different historical evidences that shed light on the controversy.
Click to expand...

These are the other translations, which you list.

Revisioning John Chrysostom: New Approaches, New Perspectives (2019)
Chris de Wet, Wendy Mayer

“Where are the ones who say the three are one power?”

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZCmVDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA677

The Christian Examiner - Volume 28 (1840)
Hymns of the Ancient Churches

“Where are they who affirm that three are one power?”

https://books.google.com/books?id=k-kWAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA18

The Church of the First Three Centuries: Or, Notices of the Lives and Opinions of the Early Fathers
(1865) Alvin Lamson

“Where are they who affirm that three are one power?”

https://books.google.com/books?id=6m8rAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA356

The Ecclesiastical History of Socrates, Surnamed Scholasticus, Or the Advocate: Comprising a History of the Church, in Seven Books, from the Accession of Constantine, A.D. 305, to the 38th Year of Theodosius II., Including a Period of 140 Years
(1844) (1853) Socrates, John Childs & Son, Bungay

“Where are they that say three things are but one power?”

https://books.google.com/books?id=URPVEfD1OIAC&pg=PA314

Ecclesiastical history of Sozomen, tr., with a mem. Also the Ecclesiastical history of Philostorgius,
as epitomised by Photius, tr. by E. Walford (1855)

“Where are those who say that the Three Persons constitute one Power?”

https://books.google.com/books?id=7pcHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA373
​

This is not a quote from the Comma, 1 John 5:7 (Clause-D, KJV-numbering).

The Greek is different.
 
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Sozomen's second work continues approximately where his first work left off. He wrote it in Constantinople, around the years 440 to 443 and dedicated it to Emperor Theodosius II.

The work is structured into nine books, roughly arranged along the reigns of Roman Emperors:

  • Book I: from the conversion of Constantine I until the Council of Nicea (312–325)
  • Book II: from the Council of Nicea to Constantine's death (325–337)
  • Book III: from the death of Constantine I to the death of Constans I (337–350)
  • Book IV: from the death of Constans I to the death of Constantius II (350–361)
  • Book V: from the death of Constantius II to the death of Julian the Apostate (361–363)
  • Book VI: from the death of Julian to the death of Valens (363–375)
  • Book VII: from the death of Valens to the death of Theodosius I (375–395)
  • Book VIII: from the death of Theodosius I to the death of Arcadius (395–408 [A.D./C.E]).
  • Book IX: from the death of Arcadius to the accession of Valentinian III (408–25).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozomen

For historical context.

This is after the Council of Constantinople 381 A.D./C.E. (see link and it's amendment's to the Nicene Creed), and dates after Theodosius the 1st's edict (also circa. 381 A.D./C.E.) against the Arians and in favor of the Trinity:

IMPPP. GR(ATI)ANUS, VAL(ENTINI)ANUS ET THE(O)D(OSIUS) AAA. EDICTUM AD POPULUM VRB(IS) CONSTANTINOP(OLITANAE).
Cunctos populos, quos clementiae nostrae regit temperamentum, in tali volumus religione versari, quam divinum Petrum apostolum tradidisse Romanis religio usque ad nunc ab ipso insinuata declarat quamque pontificem Damasum sequi claret et Petrum Aleksandriae episcopum virum apostolicae sanctitatis, hoc est, ut secundum apostolicam disciplinam evangelicamque doctrinam patris et filii et spiritus sancti unam deitatem sub pari maiestate et sub pia trinitate credamus. Hanc legem sequentes Christianorum catholicorum nomen iubemus amplecti, reliquos vero dementes vesanosque iudicantes haeretici dogmatis infamiam sustinere ‘nec conciliabula eorum ecclesiarum nomen accipere’, divina primum vindicta, post etiam motus nostri, quem ex caelesti arbitro sumpserimus, ultione plectendos.
DAT. III Kal. Mar. THESSAL(ONICAE) GR(ATI)ANO A. V ET THEOD(OSIO) A. I CONSS.
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EMPERORS GRATIAN, VALENTINIAN AND THEODOSIUS AUGUSTI. EDICT TO THE PEOPLE OF CONSTANTINOPLE.
It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We order the followers of this law to embrace the name of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.
GIVEN IN THESSALONICA ON THE THIRD DAY FROM THE CALENDS OF MARCH, DURING THE FIFTH CONSULATE OF GRATIAN AUGUSTUS AND FIRST OF THEODOSIUS AUGUSTUS[8]
— Codex Theodosianus, xvi.1.2
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So, this is in no way surprising in the historical context.

A million similar Trinitarian theological phrases, doxologies, etc, that are neither quotes, nor allusions to the Comma at all, could be found in the writings of the period.

Enjoy your amphiboly fallacy fantasy.
 
Steven Avery said:
The Elements of Plainsong: Compiled from a Series of Lectures Delivered Before the Members of the Plainsong & Mediaeval Music Society (1895)
Henry Bremridge Briggs
https://books.google.com/books?id=CicQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA57

This is one of many indications that the "three are one" was a hot-button issue in the early centuries. This one directly involved John Chrysostom. (347-407) whose side came up with competing song-fests!

In the Greek, there is strong indication that the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text began early. This could easily lead to disputes where one side (which could be Sabellian, or perhaps Trinitarian) is affirming the three are one, and the other side is attacking the concept.

In this thread, I plan to show a number of different historical evidences that shed light on the controversy.
Click to expand...
Don't forget that in the Council of Alexandria AD362, the divinity of the Holy Spirit was first affirmed, following Nicea where belief in the Holy Spirit was affirmed. In AD 381 in the First Council of Constantinople, the equal divinity of the Holy Spirit with the Father prevailed for the first time (one essence or ousia). Due to the ascendancy of Trinitarianism over Arianism, along with pre-eminence of Chrysostom and the Cappadocian fathers, it is difficult to see how any argument could be made for the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text. Rather, it never existed, and the new Trinitarian theology (philosophy) contributed to its appearance amongst the Latins.
 
cjab said:
… Due to the ascendancy of Trinitarianism over Arianism, along with pre-eminence of Chrysostom and the Cappadocian fathers, it is difficult to see how any argument could be made for the dropping of the heavenly witnesses text.
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The heavenly witnesses verse had likely already dropped from many Greek manuscripts in the Ante-Nicene era, with homoeoteleuton and the Sabellian controversies contributing, so new arguments weren’t needed.

As to how various Orthodox and Trinitarian writers saw the specific wording of the verse, that Is a complex issue. E.g. we have evidence that Augustine was not a happy verse camper. Eusebius as well. We have texts that discuss the controversies and some that may well be discussing our verse. By the grace of the Lord Jesus, I will plan on placing them on this thread, one at a time.
 
Steven Avery said:
The heavenly witnesses verse had likely already dropped from many Greek manuscripts in the Ante-Nicene era, with homoeoteleuton and the Sabellian controversies contributing, so new arguments weren’t needed.

As to how various Orthodox and Trinitarian writers saw the specific wording of the verse, that Is a complex issue. E.g. we have evidence that Augustine was not a happy verse camper. Eusebius as well. We have texts that discuss the controversies and some that may well be discussing our verse. By the grace of the Lord Jesus, I will plan on placing them on this thread, one at a time.
Click to expand...


It appears you may be having trouble distinguishing your sources on your blog.

You haven't even tracked down Greek text for your two main references (at least the last time I looked). The Greek and the Latin texts don't say what you (at least appear to think) they say in English.

You should, at least, be able to pick it up the difference to the Comma from the English.

“Where are the ones who say the three are one power?”​
“Where are they who affirm that three are one power?”​
“Where are they that say three things are but one power?”​
“Where are those who say that the Three Persons constitute one Power?”​

It's clear from the translations above that both Socrates and Sozomen are not saying that the Arian's said: "where are those who say John says that "these three are one", are they Mr Avery!

Which appears to be what you're reading into this statement.
 
Now lets think about what the Trinitarians were allegedly saying.

The Trinitarian's, according to the English text's you yourself have provided on your blog, were saying (and you have a choice here of) either, that "three things" (neuter sense) or "three persons" (masculine sense) were "one" what?
 
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Your point?

if they are thinking “one power”, issue ultimately rests on the acceptance, or not. Of the heavenly witnesses verse.
 
Apparently our resident pseudo-scholar wants us to believe that John copyrighted the phrase "three are one," so that anytime throughout history if those words EVER appear together it must automatically be a reference to the corrupt interpolation called the Comma, because obviously none of the ECFS wanted to be sued for copyright infringement.

Doesn't matter what words come before or after "three are one."

Avery simply refuses to be corrected. Even when he's shown how fast and loose he's been playing with his "evidences," he still persists....compounding his misrepresentations and outright falsehoods.

Conti.
Potamius.
Cyril.

All put forward in favor of the Comma by Avery.

All of them found to be the exact opposite.

We will find more, to be sure. Chrysostom, and the rest named above are also being misrepresented because Avery can't read Greek or Latin to verify any of his claims in the manuscripts of the ECFS.

Avery refuses to correct the record.


Integrity my foot.
 
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Here is one that looks like the orthodox flip-side to the Arians singing against the three are one!

Marius Victorinus
or .. (Gaius) Marius Victorinus (Afer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius_Victorinus

Gaius Marius Victorinus (also known as Victorinus Afer; fl. 4th century) was a Roman grammarian, rhetorician and Neoplatonic philosopher. Victorinus was African by birth and experienced the height of his career during the reign of Constantius II. He is also known for translating two of Aristotle's books from ancient Greek into Latin: the Categories and On Interpretation (De Interpretatione).[1] Victorinus had a religious conversion, from being a pagan to a Christian, "at an advanced old age" (c. 355).

The Witness of God is Greater

Hymn]
The three are therefore one,
And three times over,
Thrice are the three one,
O Blessed Trinity.

o Tres ergo unum,
et ergo ter,
ergo ter tres unum:
o beata Trinitas.
• Marii Victorini Afri, Hymnus 3, Migne Latina, PL 8.1146

The Epistles and Gospels of the Sundays Throughout the Year, Volume 2 (1866)
Daniel McCarthy
https://books.google.com/books?id=SuxS-z-6SIUC&pg=PA516

1659616944247.png


Marius Victorinus has additional writings related to the heavenly witnesses verse, writing against the Arians and in his Commentary on Philippians. Grantley Robert McDonald gave him some note in Raising the Ghost of Arius, The Witness of God is Greater has good material and I am adding some from the verse debate history.

A good research study would be to see if there are additional flip-side hymns that were used to counter the Arians.

Bengel mentions the hymn here, in his superb section about heavenly witnesses evidences.

D. Io. Alberti Bengelii Apparatus criticus ad Novum Testamentum: criseos sacrae compendium, limam, supplementum ac fructum exhibens (1763)
https://books.google.com/books?id=N9w-AAAAcAAJ&pg=RA2-PA462

D Christiani Friderici Schmidii ... Historia antiqua et vindicatio canonis sacri Veteris Novique Testamenti (1775)
Christian Friedrich Schmid
http://books.google.com/books?id=d2IUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA555

Marius Victorinus is in the heavenly witnesses verse debate involving Michaelis, Porson, Burgess, Turton and others, although off-hand I am not sure if they are mentioning the hymn.
 
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