Arminian confusion

Sketo

Well-known member
But we don't reason this way in real life, do we? If I give a panhandler $20, I don't reason to myself that he worked for that $20, or that it was somehow owed to him as wages. But if the panhandler had not taken the initiative to stand on that street corner and hold up the sign asking for help, I never would have given him the $20. It's still an act of grace on my part, but the panhandler took initiative in receiving it...without his initiative, he never would have received the gift.

So it is with salvation.

This analogy assumes that the "panhandler" already perceives "panhandling" as something other than "foolishness"...

Most human analogies exclude the fact that we are "made sinners"... and this is the reason these kind of analogies miss the biblical account.

Romans 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners...

Add back in the fact that before the "panhandler" desired to "panhandle" he loved his poor, homeless, dumpster diving life and then one might ask what changed his desire for his old lifestyle such that he now desires to "panhandle" for something better?

1+2 = 3... is only true if you remove +3+4+5 from the equation.

1+2+3+4+5 does not = 3
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
I believe all have sinned. But that does not prevent a person from reveiving Christ, He came to save sinners.

"reveiving"?!

What Bible verse allegedly teaches that a person is naturally able to "reveive Christ"? No rationalization, no assumption, we need a BIBLE verse.

Is it perhaps, "NO MAN can come..." (John 6:44)?
Is it perhaps, "The natural man CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:8)?
Is it perhaps, "the natural man CANNOT know the things of God" (1 Cor. 2:14)?
Is it perhaps, "every imagination of the thoughts of [man's] heart is only evil continually"? (Gen. 6:5)?

You see, this is what heretics do. They simply ASSUME their theology, they never prove them from Scripture, but they demand anyone who disagrees PROVE them wrong.

They never have to prove anything.
Their opponents always have to prove everything.
Double standards abound.
 

Predestined

Well-known member
A person is born with the facility to believe? Why do you believe that when scripture teaches the opposite?
Do you believe it is okay to pick and choose what you like?

Your above post made me think that we are born with the ability to form an opinion about who Jesus is but not the correct opinion. As Matthew tells us chapter 16 verse 17 in and of ourselves we are unable to know who Jesus really is. It has to be revealed to us by God.

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

C.S. Lewis says;


“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Jesus that, ‘I’m ready to accept him as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ This is the one thing we must not say. A man who is merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher, He would either be a lunatic, or else He would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God, or else a madman, or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

The only problem with Mr. Lewis quote is that unless God reveals to us who Jesus is we will always be in a state of confusion. See where I'm going with this? It's God that makes the choice. Jesus chose his disciples. God chooses his chosen people. Man's pride and ego deceived him into thinking he has some part in that choice.

Think 2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And turn away from these.

The power of God unto salvation that God gives to His Chosen ones, first to the Jews and then the Gentiles.

Men are born spiritually dead, leaving them incapable of making the correct decision with respect to salvation and who Jesus really is.. And unless God opens our eye and our hearts we remain that way. So people that come here that haven't been regenerated and try to lay their trip on us it's like the blind leading the blind.

When you're spiritually dead inside you don't know it. You think that somehow someway can I make things better. If I only had a better house, if I only had a nicer car... And on and on and on. Trying to fill the God shaped hole inside of us thingy. You just don't understand your dead inside and that nothing in this fallen world is going to fix that. Except what Jesus told Nicodemus "you must be born again". I've never met anyone that figure that out on their own. I've never heard anyone's testimony that said "Hey you know what... I think I'll get born again today, yeah that's the ticket." It makes me think of the apostles getting ready to go fishing. Yeah I'm going fishing today unless Jesus walks by then I'm going to follow him. When you stop and think about it it's really rather ludicrous to believe being born again could ever be our own idea.
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
Are you reading "I am sold" to mean "I was sold"?
Essentially, yes. Paul states in Rom 6 and 8 of being set free from the power and control of sin; he cannot therefore be "under sin" and its control in chapter 7:14-ff. Whether or not this is an instance of the historical present from a technical standpoint (and while I now understand that Wallace deems it as unlikely), it is logically impossible to be free from sin and "sold under sin" at the same time, which is precisely what reading 7:14-ff as a present tense reality for Paul does.


Doug
 
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Carbon

Well-known member
Your above post made me think that we are born with the ability to form an opinion about who Jesus is but not the correct opinion. As Matthew tells us chapter 16 verse 17 in and of ourselves we are unable to know who Jesus really is. It has to be revealed to us by God.

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

C.S. Lewis says;


“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Jesus that, ‘I’m ready to accept him as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ This is the one thing we must not say. A man who is merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher, He would either be a lunatic, or else He would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God, or else a madman, or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

The only problem with Mr. Lewis quote is that unless God reveals to us who Jesus is we will always be in a state of confusion. See where I'm going with this? It's God that makes the choice. Jesus chose his disciples. God chooses his chosen people. Man's pride and ego deceived him into thinking he has some part in that choice.

Think 2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And turn away from these.

The power of God unto salvation that God gives to His Chosen ones, first to the Jews and then the Gentiles.

Men are born spiritually dead, leaving them incapable of making the correct decision with respect to salvation and who Jesus really is.. And unless God opens our eye and our hearts we remain that way. So people that come here that haven't been regenerated and try to lay their trip on us it's like the blind leading the blind.

When you're spiritually dead inside you don't know it. You think that somehow someway can I make things better. If I only had a better house, if I only had a nicer car... And on and on and on. Trying to fill the God shaped hole inside of us thingy. You just don't understand your dead inside and that nothing in this fallen world is going to fix that. Except what Jesus told Nicodemus "you must be born again". I've never met anyone that figure that out on their own. I've never heard anyone's testimony that said "Hey you know what... I think I'll get born again today, yeah that's the ticket." It makes me think of the apostles getting ready to go fishing. Yeah I'm going fishing today unless Jesus walks by then I'm going to follow him. When you stop and think about it it's really rather ludicrous to believe being born again could ever be our own idea.
Amen!

Yet people think it
 

Kampioen

Active member
" Kampioen said:
But what about when we sin during the process of sanctification? Is that monergistic too? ... or is it temporarily libertarian? "
Can we say that God Worked in Joseph's brothers, to Will and to do his Good pleasure; which was the selling of Joseph for the Saving of many lives?
From time to time we speak about RC Sproul saying that Sanctification is Synergistic.
If this is true in some kind of way, then the selling of Joseph had to be Synergistic in some kind of way for them to be guilty of the Sin; since God and Man Meant it to happen too.
If the brother's Act was Monergistic Alone, who earned the Wages of the Deed?

That's interesting. It looks like Molinism (in some type of way). I consider myself Neo-Molinist.

God predetermined (in some way) a mix of open and intervened future.

The open future by sheer miracle of God just turns out how God predetermined. And the sin in people's lives is thus libertarian although the fact that sin could and did enter is predetermined.

God also intervenes/predestined in history including temporarily in some people's thoughts to guide history the way He wants it.

Nonetheless, God is omnipotent over all this, and omniscient, omnipresent, timeless, and omni-aware.

That's the conclusion I see explains Scriptures.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
The only problem with Mr. Lewis quote is that unless God reveals to us who Jesus is we will always be in a state of confusion.

God does reveal this in a variety of ways, most notably through the gospel message, as well as the gospel accounts themselves. By means of the Holy Spirit, the truth can be brought to light, especially our guilt and need of a savior. We all, even as sinners know when we have done something wrong. That we are guilty before God and in need of a savior is not a leap!

Doug
 

Predestined

Well-known member
God does reveal this in a variety of ways, most notably through the gospel message, as well as the gospel accounts themselves. By means of the Holy Spirit, the truth can be brought to light, especially our guilt and need of a savior. We all, even as sinners know when we have done something wrong. That we are guilty before God and in need of a savior is not a leap!

Doug
We should write a song and call it "Leap into the loving arms of the Savior"

I agree with your post 100% Doug. There's a lot to think about in the first two sentences of your post. I believe if your predestined but your life is a mess and your living in darkness and your carrying that load of guilt you mentioned, at that point God can put someone in your path to tell you about Jesus and the Holy Spirit can open up the kingdom of God to you and make it clear your need of a Savior.

The last part of your post about the guilt we carry when were walking in darkness is something I've been thinking about. I've always liked that part in the Bible were Jesus starts off his ministry by standing up in the synagogue and reading Isaiah 61. This part “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”. It could be people caring that guilt is what makes them poor in spirit.

We know that Jesus came to “bring good news to the poor.” I just read that the root of the Greek verb Jesus uses there for “good news” is evangel, from which we get the words “evangelize” and “evangelical”; Jesus’s Ministry was to be based on proclaiming the good news. Without a doubt, Jesus’s gospel was always to be good news for the poor. Not so much poor in the pocketbook but poor because their joy is gone due to carrying the shame and guilt of being slaves to sin.

I think that we don't come to Jesus on our own and the reason we have to be called out of the darkness into the light is because of shame and guilt. Look at Adam and Eve in the garden. After they disobeyed God they hid from Him. He had to go look for them. I think it's the same with us when we are in our sin we hide from God, we hide from the light, we want to stay covered up in the darkness. We don't realize there's a better way. We don't comprehend that we can come into the light and be set free. The Holy Spirit has to reveal that to us. God has to call us out into His Marvelous light. That that old man of sin has to die and we must be born again.

I often wonder what might've happened when God asked Adam and Eve what was going on if they had just confessed their sin and said... hey we messed up really bad and ate off the tree you told us not to. We are so sorry please forgive us. That doesn't seem to be the way sin works. It seems like we have to cover up our sin blame it on this or that. That may be why God is the one that has to call us out of it. It seems we can't die to sin in and of ourselves we need a savior. In the Bible tells us that's foolishness to the carnal man.

I like how the apostle Paul puts it in Romans seven:
But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.…

I think that's why renewing our mind and loving God with all of our mind is so important.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
We should write a song and call it "Leap into the loving arms of the Savior"
Leap into the loving arms
Of the Savior strong yet meek
Find protection from all harm
Safety from the stormy bleak.

Leap into the loving arms
Ever sure, forever strong
To all our earthly fears disarm
Find the peace for which we long.

Leap in faith, the loving arms
Will always catch you and ensure
Comfort when filled with alarm
Granting hope-- yes hope secure!

© D. Allen Jenkins
11/19/21
 

Predestined

Well-known member
Leap into the loving arms
Of the Savior strong yet meek
Find protection from all harm
Safety from the stormy bleak.

Leap into the loving arms
Ever sure, forever strong
To all our earthly fears disarm
Find the peace for which we long.

Leap in faith, the loving arms
Will always catch you and ensure
Comfort when filled with alarm
Granting hope-- yes hope secure!

© D. Allen Jenkins
11/19/21
WOW...I'm seriously impressed. Dumbfounded even. You know what ...November 19 is my birthday 73 today and I'm thinking that song that you penned today is the best birthday present ever. Thanks Doug! I'm going to copy and paste your song right now. It's a keeper.
 

fltom

Well-known member
That's not true.

You wrote:



When I asked you to SUPPORT this (your) doctrine (claim) from Scripture,
you were UNABLE to do so.
And when I ask you support your views and/or address rebuttal you often refuse

So how are your actions any different from what you speak of above
 

eternomade

Well-known member
You should at least read the context. An honest person who did it would have questions to ask of the text.
Faith is only given to the elect, the sheep, the vessels of mercy. The offense of the cross is that out of the same lump of clay, God will elect some to be justified and reprobate others. You present a false gospel which Jesus warns about multiple times in Matthew 7. What you said above really makes no sense and Paul also warns of this multiple times in Galatians specifically chapter 1.

The Gospel of Grace is the effectual work of Christ that is unconditional upon the sinner because the Lord Jesus Christ has already fulfilled all conditions necessary for the salvation of His people. This is good news and nothing else is good news. I pray you consider this.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It is a false presentation to say the verse above in the words you have written it.
How so? Would you show me?
It should not be said that gentiles have been saved through faith,
Are they saved from being faithless?
as if he is speaking only to the gentiles in Ephesus.
Where are you reading that in my post? Are you reading that into it?
The gentiles were saved "after" the Jews had been receiving salvation for ten years. Gentiles have not been saved, but gentiles are being saved, even now, some 2000 years later.
So, ten years after the Jews were being saved?
You will not only be guilty before God of presenting a false gospel, but you will also be guilty of confusing what God has said to us.
Sorry friend, but I don’t think it’s me that has confused you.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Here is a brief bible lesson in Eph 2.

If The apostle Paul is identifying the :ye" in the text as gentiles, as opposed to Jews, and saying about gentiles that they have no promises of salvation, as did the Jews in times of old, why would it not be reasonable to allow the text to differentiate between the two groups by designated pronouns? Look.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

"Ye" = gentiles, as opposed to Jews, or the circumcised. Logic 101.

He is dealing with two people groups who come from two very different relationships with God in the past. One group had promises of salvation and one did not. One was near to God, the other was far away from him.

Consider the beginning of the chapter.

1 And you (gentiles) [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye (gentiles) walked

3 ......also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,

Also is a word meaning addition.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (Jews and gentiles)
(notice it was the principle of mercy here).

5 Even when we (Jews and gentiles) were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye (gentiles) are saved)
Why didn't Paul say "by grace WE are saved?" He was a saved man. The word together takes more than one. He will use the word both and twain to identify who are together and to tell us how many he is speaking of. Well, just look since we are in chapter two.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now let's continue.

8 For by grace are ye (gentiles) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I am going to quote a companion verse here that should be read with verse 8 above. I wonder if you will believe it.

16 Therefore [it is] (the it here is righteousness which is what we have when we get saved) of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Do you see how the "it" is salvation received through the principle of faith. For the Jews salvation was by promise as long as they had a national identity.

Context is our friend. Believe the words.
 
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