Arminius on Predestination

Theo1689

Well-known member
How can you sit on this mortal coil and say faith is not why we are elect?

Because your position simply isn't Biblical.

The bible doesn't help you with such a proclamation and forces you to make a grand assumption that is not supportable.

YOU are the one making the "grand assumption that is not supportable".

It is far safer to accept the truth that God foreknows every faithful soul in Christ and predestines each as the apostle says ... 'For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'

That says nothing about "foreseen faith".

As I said above, the only purpose in doing so is to add a philosophical element.

YOU are the one "adding a philosophical element".

You end up with a 'double predestination' that has God making an arbitrary selection of souls, one for eternal glory, the other for eternal damnation. Election is not as black and white as the Calvinist tries to make it because it basically lacks the black and white text of scripture to support it.

"Foreseen faith" is not as black and white as the Arminian tries to make it because it basically lacks the black and white text of scripture to support it.

1. Which is first, Election, or Faith Truly Foreseen, so that God elected his people according to faith foreseen?

The concept of "faith foreseen" is unBiblical.
Election happens from before the foundation of the world.
Faith happens during a person's lifetime.
Therefore election happens prior to faith.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
How can you sit on this mortal coil and say faith is not why we are elect? The bible doesn't help you with such a proclamation and forces you to make a grand assumption that is not supportable. It is far safer to accept the truth that God foreknows every faithful soul in Christ and predestines each as the apostle says ... 'For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'

As I said above, the only purpose in doing so is to add a philosophical element. You end up with a 'double predestination' that has God making an arbitrary selection of souls, one for eternal glory, the other for eternal damnation. Election is not as black and white as the Calvinist tries to make it because it basically lacks the black and white text of scripture to support it.

I have to do some work now but here are a few words from Arminius on the matter. His answers were presented to the University of Leyden, the result of which was an affirmation of his Reformed Christian credentials.

1. Which is first, Election, or Faith Truly Foreseen, so that God elected his people according to faith foreseen?

1. Is the decree "for bestowing Faith on any one," previous to that by which is appointed "the Necessity of Faith to salvation?"

ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION

The equivocation in the word "Election," makes it impossible to answer this question in any other manner, than by distinction. If therefore "Election" denotes "the decree which is according to election concerning the justification and salvation of believers." I say Election is prior to Faith, as being that by which Faith is appointed as the means of obtaining salvation. But if it signifies "the decree by which God determines to bestow salvation on some one," then Faith foreseen is prior to Election. For as believers alone are saved, so only believers are predestinated to salvation. But the Scriptures know no Election, by which God precisely and absolutely has determined to save anyone without having first considered him as a believer. For such an Election would be at variance with the decree by which he hath determined to save none but believers.
This 5-Point Calvinist won't argue with Arminius very much. What if we take his method of Foreseen Faith and apply it to "Foreseen Sanctification"? If Foreseen Faith is a requirement for our Election, why wouldn't Foreseen Sanctification be just as much a requirement for our Election? Perhaps the reason it's not a requirement for our Election, is because it's Circular Reasoning. Circular due to the Unconditional Grace of God throughout our Pilgrimage...

Faith is a Gift in Classical Arminianism; right? Is it a Gift of Election? Is it a Gift of Illumination? Is it a Gift of the Holy Spirit? How do any of these avoid Circular Reasoning?
 
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TomFL

Guest
The concept of "faith foreseen" is unBiblical.
Election happens from before the foundation of the world.
Faith happens during a person's lifetime.
Therefore election happens prior to faith.
Election is in Christ

men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


which do you doubt ?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Election is in Christ

men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


which do you doubt ?
I tend to draw a picture of the New Birth in the shape of a Poke-Ball...

A Poke-Ball looks like a Circle within a Circle. The space between the inner and outer circles are divided in half by the colors Red and White, but the inner circle is a solid color. The red and white colors represent the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Spirit; the twofold aspects of the New Birth. The inner circle represents Faith. So the Poke Ball is divided into three in Logical Order; the Washing of Regeneration, Faith, and the Renewing of the Human Spirit. The three are One incident; occurring let's say, in the twinkling of an eye...
 
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TomFL

Guest
I tend to draw a picture of the New Birth in the shape of a Poke-Ball...

A Poke-Ball looks like a Circle within a Circle. The space between the inner and outer circles are divided in half by the colors Red and White, but the inner circle is a solid color. The red and white colors represent the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Spirit; the twofold aspects of the New Birth. The inner circle represents Faith. So the Poke Ball is divided into three in Logical Order; the Washing of Regeneration, Faith, and the Renewing of the Human Spirit. The three are One incident; occurring let's say, in the twinkling of an eye...
Ok leaving aside the issue of logical order

The issue here is election
 
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guest1

Guest
Ok leaving aside the issue of logical order

The issue here is election
No the issue here is Gods grace in the unregenerate precedes faith. And faith comes from God and even in the believer its the fruit of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:kjv

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:nasb

1 Timothy 1:14
The grace
of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Septextura

Well-known member
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = Resurrection
  1. Resurrection from what?
  2. And how?
 
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guest1

Guest
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = Resurrection
  1. Resurrection from what?
  2. And how?
paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.
HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3824: παλιγγενεσία

παλιγγενεσία (T WH παλιγγενεσία (cf. Tdf. Proleg., p. 77 bottom)), παλιγγενεσίας, ἡ (πάλιν and γένεσις), properly, new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation (see Halm on Cicero, pro Sest. § 140), Vulg. and Augustineregeneratio; hence, "moral renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better" (effected in baptism (cf. references under the word βάπτισμα, 3)): Titus 3:5 (cf. the commentaries at the passage (especially Holtzmann, where see, p. 172f for references); Weiss, Biblical Theol. especially §§ 84, 108; cf. Suicer, Thesaurus, under the word). Commonly, however, the word denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death, Philo leg.
 
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guest1

Guest
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Regeneration = Resurrection
  1. Resurrection from what?
  2. And how?
Its so obvious regeneration is passive on the part of the one receiving new life and only active on Gods side of the equation. And its obvious why the ant-crowd hates it when we use physical birth as a parallel with the new birth/spiritual birth. It removes all doubt which is why Jesus in John 3 uses the phrase born again, born a second time which Nicodemus was trying to wrap his mind around wondering how he could go through another physical birth. Like the anti-crowd Nicodemus didn't understand how the 2nd birth which is spiritual works and Jesus explained it with the wind.

John 3 is a powerful chapter that works in favor of our position not against it and should be used more often as a source for us against those who would say they have anything at all to do with their 2nd birth.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No the issue here is Gods grace in the unregenerate precedes faith. And faith comes from God and even in the believer its the fruit of the Spirit.
No check and see
The question concerned election not regeneration if you see what I responded to

ReverendRV brought up regeneration


1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

In context

1 Cor. 4:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
¶ For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

It concerns ministry and stewardship not saving faith
Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

In context has nothing to do with saving faith

Rom. 12:3–8 —KJV
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, l
et us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.”
Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Concerns the saved not the unsaved. Saving faith is not in view here
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation through faith is the gift

Nothing there states saving faith was irresistibly given to man
Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Concerns the saved not the unsaved
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

Yes granted not irresistibly fused

I agree with that as does most everyone

faith is granted through the gospel revelation and the conviction of the spirit etc

Rom. 10:8–17 —KJV
“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:kjv

Most commentator se this as the substance of faith i.e. Christian doctrine
1 Timothy 1:14
The grace
of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

In context

1 Tim. 1:12 —KJV
“¶ And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;”

It does not save Paul was infused with saving faith




Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

Everyone agrees we believe through grace

Calvinist however teaches irresistible grace it is not referred to here


(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

hope this helps !!!

Says nothing at all upon what basis they were appointed or disposed to eternal life

The Arminian would say it is based on foreknowledge

A provision could say it is based on the promise that all things work together for good for those who love god

The gentiles here were followers of God

Or even argue for a meaning of disposed

We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48. Jack Cottrell Acts 13:48 and Calvinism

Similar is AT Robertson's word pictures

The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

Bottom line in scripture

There simply is nothing saying God unconditionally selects men and infuses them with saving faith

The bible establishes God's grace is needed it does not establish the need for regeneration before faith or an irresistible grace infusing faith in men


 
G

guest1

Guest
No check and see
The question concerned election not regeneration if you see what I responded to

ReverendRV brought up regeneration




In context

1 Cor. 4:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
¶ For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

It concerns ministry and stewardship not saving faith


In context has nothing to do with saving faith

Rom. 12:3–8 —KJV
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, l
et us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.”


Concerns the saved not the unsaved. Saving faith is not in view here


Salvation through faith is the gift

Nothing there states saving faith was irresistibly given to man


Concerns the saved not the unsaved


Yes granted not irresistibly fused

I agree with that as does most everyone

faith is granted through the gospel revelation and the conviction of the spirit etc

Rom. 10:8–17 —KJV
“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”


Most commentator se this as the substance of faith i.e. Christian doctrine


In context

1 Tim. 1:12 —KJV
“¶ And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;”

It does not save Paul was infused with saving faith



Everyone agrees we believe through grace

Calvinist however teaches irresistible grace it is not referred to here


Says nothing at all upon what basis they were appointed or disposed to eternal life

The Arminian would say it is based on foreknowledge

A provision could say it is based on the promise that all things work together for good for those who love god

The gentiles here were followers of God

Or even argue for a meaning of disposed

We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48. Jack Cottrell Acts 13:48 and Calvinism

Similar is AT Robertson's word pictures

The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

Bottom line in scripture

There simply is nothing saying God unconditionally selects men and infuses them with saving faith

The bible establishes God's grace is needed it does not establish the need for regeneration before faith or an irresistible grace infusing faith in men
in every case faith in those passages are granted by God whether or not you dispute they are salvific.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No check and see
The question concerned election not regeneration if you see what I responded to

ReverendRV brought up regeneration




In context

1 Cor. 4:1–7 —KJV
Ҧ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
¶ For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

It concerns ministry and stewardship not saving faith


In context has nothing to do with saving faith

Rom. 12:3–8 —KJV
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, l
et us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.”


Concerns the saved not the unsaved. Saving faith is not in view here


Salvation through faith is the gift

Nothing there states saving faith was irresistibly given to man


Concerns the saved not the unsaved


Yes granted not irresistibly fused

I agree with that as does most everyone

faith is granted through the gospel revelation and the conviction of the spirit etc

Rom. 10:8–17 —KJV
“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”


Most commentator se this as the substance of faith i.e. Christian doctrine


In context

1 Tim. 1:12 —KJV
“¶ And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;”

It does not save Paul was infused with saving faith



Everyone agrees we believe through grace

Calvinist however teaches irresistible grace it is not referred to here


Says nothing at all upon what basis they were appointed or disposed to eternal life

The Arminian would say it is based on foreknowledge

A provision could say it is based on the promise that all things work together for good for those who love god

The gentiles here were followers of God

Or even argue for a meaning of disposed

We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice. There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48. Jack Cottrell Acts 13:48 and Calvinism

Similar is AT Robertson's word pictures

The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

Bottom line in scripture

There simply is nothing saying God unconditionally selects men and infuses them with saving faith

The bible establishes God's grace is needed it does not establish the need for regeneration before faith or an irresistible grace infusing faith in men
Civic is the OP and knows what the Thread is about...
 

travelah

Active member
in every case faith in those passages are granted by God whether or not you dispute they are salvific.
It is not God who does the believing for you. Time and again we are told about "our faith" "your faith" etc. It is the enabling to believe that is granted, not belief itself.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
It is not God who does the believing for you. Time and again we are told about "our faith" "your faith" etc. It is the enabling to believe that is granted, not belief itself.

NO. God does not need to enable anyone to die with his son.

Humans are very proficient at dying.
 
G

guest1

Guest
It is not God who does the believing for you. Time and again we are told about "our faith" "your faith" etc. It is the enabling to believe that is granted, not belief itself.
I never said God believes for me but that by His grace He grants faith.

Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed


Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him


2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Civic is the OP and knows what the Thread is about...
Who is taking about the op

I responded to a post from Theo concerning election

See below

TomFL said:

Election is in Christ

men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


which do you doubt ?

That is what I was talking abiut when you started addressing regeneration again
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That is the 'God's Lottery' theological version of predestination

Faith is the one constant among every soul predestined or as Paul put it... For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What did God know in common about every single person in Christ?
You been told
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is not God who does the believing for you. Time and again we are told about "our faith" "your faith" etc. It is the enabling to believe that is granted, not belief itself.

1) Nobody is claiming "God does the believing for you".

2) The Scriptures teach that God gives "faith", NOT merely "the enabling to believe".
You are ADDING that to Scripture, to prop up the false teaching of "free will".



1) God GIVE us (actual) faith.
2) Because we have faith, we necessarily believe.

We don't "choose" to believe, any more than we "choose" to beat our heart, or "choose" to hear a sound.
 
G

guest1

Guest
1) Nobody is claiming "God does the believing for you".

2) The Scriptures teach that God gives "faith", NOT merely "the enabling to believe".
You are ADDING that to Scripture, to prop up the false teaching of "free will".



1) God GIVE us (actual) faith.
2) Because we have faith, we necessarily believe.

We don't "choose" to believe, any more than we "choose" to beat our heart, or "choose" to hear a sound.
or choose our 2nd birth the same way in which we did not choose our first birth. :)
 
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