Arminius on Predestination

travelah

Active member
This 5-Point Calvinist won't argue with Arminius very much. What if we take his method of Foreseen Faith and apply it to "Foreseen Sanctification"? If Foreseen Faith is a requirement for our Election, why wouldn't Foreseen Sanctification be just as much a requirement for our Election? Perhaps the reason it's not a requirement for our Election, is because it's Circular Reasoning. Circular due to the Unconditional Grace of God throughout our Pilgrimage...

Faith is a Gift in Classical Arminianism; right? Is it a Gift of Election? Is it a Gift of Illumination? Is it a Gift of the Holy Spirit? How do any of these avoid Circular Reasoning?
Sanctification is a product of faith and there is no circular reasoning involved here. The enabling to believe is a gift of the Spirit. It isn't a 'gift of election' as that is an extra biblical construction. How would it be circular? Grace is not unconditional. The prayers of the saints avail us much otherwise prayer becomes a meaningless exercise. Calvinists generally consider election to be unconditional with Grace being irresistible (for the record, as an Arminian I reject both).
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Sanctification is a product of faith

No, it is a product of God. Being made holy is the product of God's Holy Spirit leading men into all righteousness.

and there is no circular reasoning involved here. The enabling to believe is a gift of the Spirit. It isn't a 'gift of election' as that is an extra biblical construction. How would it be circular? Grace is not unconditional. The prayers of the saints avail us much otherwise prayer becomes a meaningless exercise. Calvinists generally consider election to be unconditional with Grace being irresistible (for the record, as an Arminian I reject both).
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yep but I am fairly certain you don't

compare to Romans 11:2

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Same author

same book

same word

same phrase
lol You just anything to be contrary. You been told
 
T

TomFL

Guest
lol You just anything to be contrary. You been told
As expected you did not address it

and no I am just being biblical

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Same author

same book

same word

same phrase
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
As expected you did not address it

and no I am just being biblical

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Same author

same book

same word

same phrase
Nothing to debate. You just post anything to be contrary.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Nothing to debate. You just post anything to be contrary.
You are running again

Rom. 11:2–5 —KJV
“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Same author

same book

same word

same phrase
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sanctification is a product of faith and there is no circular reasoning involved here. The enabling to believe is a gift of the Spirit. It isn't a 'gift of election' as that is an extra biblical construction. How would it be circular? Grace is not unconditional. The prayers of the saints avail us much otherwise prayer becomes a meaningless exercise. Calvinists generally consider election to be unconditional with Grace being irresistible (for the record, as an Arminian I reject both).
I'm just thinking out loud. Since Classical Arminianism believes someone can potentially lose their Salvation, shouldn't God Elect people he Foreknew would Persevere in the Faith; instead of someone like Judas who believed for a little while but the Cares of the world choked him out? Sanctification/Perseverance are of the Grace of God; that's why all this is Circular Reasoning...
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I'm just thinking out loud. Since Classical Arminianism believes someone can potentially lose their Salvation, shouldn't God Elect people he Foreknew would Persevere in the Faith; instead of someone like Judas who believed for a little while but the Cares of the world choked him out? Sanctification/Perseverance are of the Grace of God; that's why all this is Circular Reasoning...
Judas was elect just not elect for salvation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Pt 3

... to bring a people into His unmediated presence by the redemptive work of the Son of God, Jesus Christ? (Jn.14.3; 17.24; Re.21.3) Now there are some things hard to understand in the word of God. For example, omniscience and foreknowledge are not the same things, yet so many of us treat them as if they are. Omniscience, like omnipresence, omnipotence, are attributes of God. These describe for us something of what God is like. Omni- from the Latin omnis, meaning all or universally. God is all-knowing, present in all places at one time, and all-powerful. However, foreknowledge and election refer to acts of God. I believe the statements, ‘God has predestinated that believers shall be saved,’ and, ‘God foreknew who they are that would believe,’ is a direct result of confusing God’s attribute of omniscience with His act that is called foreknowledge. That God comprehends all things at once, that He knows all things, that He knows from eternity the beginning from the end is true. (Is.46.10; Jn.16.30; 21.17) We do not deny that God is omniscient, but omniscience isn’t an act. In other words there is no intent in knowing. However, to foreknow is to act. God acts positively toward those he foreknows. This foreknowledge is when He sets His special thoughts upon someone. Therefore it can be said that omniscience differs from foreknowledge in that the act to foreknow is prompted absolutely by grace. Grace is the moving cause of foreknowledge. As a matter of fact grace is the moving cause of both foreknowledge and election. God by His grace set His mind specially upon one (foreknowledge) to choose him (election) in Jesus Christ to be saved. 1Pe 1:2, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (cf. Ro.11.5) G-R-A-C-E: the absolutely arbitrary, unmerited, loving favor of God bestowed upon those foreknown and elected. By now hopefully we can understand better that foreknowledge isn’t determined by the foreknown, but by the Foreknower; that, election isn’t determined by the elected, but by the Elector; and that, predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator.
Pt 4 and final:

Predestination Is not Based on Works or Faith 4 predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator. These things are the works of God. They are unilateral and unconditional. It is His right to apply these to whomever He will as His is the power to do as He pleases. How presumptuous for men to think it could be any other way. We have proved by the word of God predestination is only applied to those which God has foreknown and elected unto salvation. It cannot be affirmed by the word of God that predestination (not to mention foreknowledge and election) is based on foreseen works or faith. That idea is foreign to the word of God. Rather, predestination, the Greek, prooridzo, means, to determine beforehand. So God determined beforehand the destiny of those He foreknew and elected. In other words predestination sets the course of certain ones so that they shall surely receive the gift of everlasting life and positively come to faith in God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Listen, apart from the work of God no man can come to Christ because of sin. (Jn.6.29, 44) Man is dead in trespasses and sins. How few there are which grasp that man is really this dead. Well-meaning men pump just enough life into the man so that he can do something, anything. For this reason they have created one of the greatest contradictions in the word of God and one of the sharpest divisions there is among those of the true faith of Jesus Christ. They have made faith the moving cause for God’s foreknowledge, election and predestination. There is no better way to display the awesome greatness of God than by His public display from eternity past to eternity future that He can do what He pleases, when He pleases, and how pleases to whom He pleases. If you are one that knows Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again from the dead there can be no greater comfort for you at this present time than to believe every word of God. Receive it all just as it is written and be blessed. file: biblestud/Craig/misc/election/200714 Predestination Is not Based on Works or Faith-CThurman
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Pt 4 and final:

Predestination Is not Based on Works or Faith 4 predestination isn’t determined by the predestinated, but by the Predestinator. These things are the works of God. They are unilateral and unconditional. It is His right to apply these to whomever He will as His is the power to do as He pleases. How presumptuous for men to think it could be any other way. We have proved by the word of God predestination is only applied to those which God has foreknown and elected unto salvation. It cannot be affirmed by the word of God that predestination (not to mention foreknowledge and election) is based on foreseen works or faith. That idea is foreign to the word of God. Rather, predestination, the Greek, prooridzo, means, to determine beforehand. So God determined beforehand the destiny of those He foreknew and elected. In other words predestination sets the course of certain ones so that they shall surely receive the gift of everlasting life and positively come to faith in God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Listen, apart from the work of God no man can come to Christ because of sin. (Jn.6.29, 44) Man is dead in trespasses and sins. How few there are which grasp that man is really this dead. Well-meaning men pump just enough life into the man so that he can do something, anything. For this reason they have created one of the greatest contradictions in the word of God and one of the sharpest divisions there is among those of the true faith of Jesus Christ. They have made faith the moving cause for God’s foreknowledge, election and predestination. There is no better way to display the awesome greatness of God than by His public display from eternity past to eternity future that He can do what He pleases, when He pleases, and how pleases to whom He pleases. If you are one that knows Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again from the dead there can be no greater comfort for you at this present time than to believe every word of God. Receive it all just as it is written and be blessed. file: biblestud/Craig/misc/election/200714 Predestination Is not Based on Works or Faith-CThurman

And He predestined your sins too, right?
 
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