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SimpleMan

Member
I apologize for you any mis-understanding

You opened yourself up on a pedestal of free questions and answers, now I see retraction from this position?

Ok, so you hold Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, "light of the world" and his written words as supreme authotity, you are a "Born Again" christian

We have established that Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma is authoritative within freemasonry, and "Was" handed out to initiates by governing authority within freemasonry
That's not correct.

We established that at one time it was authoritative in Scottish Rite, not all of Freemasonry. York Rite doesn't recognize this work at all. Blue Lodge Freemasons don't recognize it either.

Not sure why so many people are so fired up over the works of a man that means little to nothing to masons that were raised since the mid 1980's.

I'm not what I'd consider a born again Christian. I was baptised as a teen, and what I believed then still applies today.
 

SimpleMan

Member
What is this subtle distinction you're referring to here?
I was not subtle on purpose.

Humans seem to be called to the Lord at different times in life. Sometimes more than once, hence born again. The good Lord showed himself to me at 16 and I haven't looked back.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I was not subtle on purpose.
Most Christians practically equate being born again with being a Christian. Hence my question.
Humans seem to be called to the Lord at different times in life. Sometimes more than once, hence born again.
Jesus doesn't use the term that way as if one can keep being born over and over again. He explicitly refutes this idea when it pops into Nicodemus' head. The begetting or birth is from "above". It is a spiritual birth, and spiritual births are not something that happen over and over again just as physical births do not happen over and over again.


John 3:31 Adv
GRK:ἄνωθεν ἐρχόμενος ἐπάνω
NAS: He who comes from above is above all,
KJV: He that cometh from above is above
INT: He who from above comes above

John 19:11 Adv
GRK: δεδομένον σοι ἄνωθεν διὰ τοῦτο
NAS: given you from above; for this
KJV: thee from above: therefore
INT: given to you from above because of this


James 1:17 Adv
GRK: δώρημα τέλειον ἄνωθέν ἐστιν καταβαῖνον
NAS: gift is from above, coming down
KJV: is from above, and cometh down
INT: gift perfect from above is coming down

James 3:15 Adv
GRK: ἡ σοφία ἄνωθεν κατερχομένη ἀλλὰ
NAS: is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly,
KJV: not from above, but
INT: the wisdom from above coming down but

James 3:17 Adv
GRK: ἡ δὲ ἄνωθεν σοφία πρῶτον
NAS: But the wisdom from above is first
KJV: the wisdom that is from above is
INT: but [the] from above wisdom first
The good Lord showed himself to me at 16 and I haven't looked back.
Yet your posts indicate that you are looking back over and over "again" rather than a spiritual begetting from above.

Jesus uses the analogy of birth or begetting because it isn't something that we do, but rather is something that happens to us. It is a spiritual water that we are begotten or born into. The rite of baptism could be used as a symbol, but the symbol is not the actual begetting or birth. By definition, symbols are substitutions for the real thing.

The rite of baptism is supposed to document or affirm this transformation, but there is nothing to stop those who haven't undergone this spiritual birth from being baptized either. John's baptism is explicitly a "token" of repentance.

John's baptism and being begotten or born from above by the spirit are two completely different things.
 

kamaeq

Member
Your not simple man, or are you "Smiles"

Are you a christian, if so what denomination?

What is your Masonic affiliation?

What degree have you attained?
LOL, not hardly, I'm not the one on this forum who was shown to engage in account shenanigans.

Christian, Protestant.

Regular Freemasonry. Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, SJ and former Shriner.

Master Mason, 32d, N/A (then or now)
 

kamaeq

Member
(snip)

We have established that Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma is authoritative within freemasonry, and "Was" handed out to initiates by governing authority within freemasonry
Really? Where? It was handed out to candidates in the Scottish Rite, SJ for a long time.

As for "authoritative", what do you mean? IF you are implying the sort of authority the Bible has for a Christian, then you are sadly mistaken. As for the Scottish Rite, SJ, being any sort of "governing authority", it has to have the approval of the regular Grand Lodge in each Grand Jurisdiction to exist and operate. That is what makes this kind of Scottish Rite/Albert Pike conspiracy stuff so funny to Freemasons.

I do note that you have shifted your position from the vague "Respected Reading" to equally vague claims about "authority" for Morals & Dogma. Clarity is important if one actually seeks truth or Truth, vagueness that appears to be games demonstrates a lack of care for such... or a preference for "truth" over facts.

I'll let you ponder on the one thing no antimason has ever had a response for; the Preface to Morals & Dogma:
I'll give you what no antimason who bases their claims off Morals & Dogma can never provide a response to; the Preface of Morals & Dogma:
The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity.

Bold emphasis added.
Note they are specifically limited to the realm of "Morality", aka Philosophy.
Note they are not authoritative according to the author.
Note they are the speculations of the author and not part of the actual rituals. Yes, I can provide a witness to that one as one of the few in my generation to have actually read the darned thing.
 

SimpleMan

Member
LOL, not hardly, I'm not the one on this forum who was shown to engage in account shenanigans.

Christian, Protestant.

Regular Freemasonry. Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, SJ and former Shriner.

Master Mason, 32d, N/A (then or now)
I use the name "Simpleman" as it fits me. I'm just a simple country boy.
Plus I happen to like the song of the same name.
 

SimpleMan

Member
Not trying to be over bearing, but you haven't really answered the question directly?

Are "You" a Christian, Have you followed the actions as seen below in Roman 10:9-10?

Romans 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I believe I've answered this question more than once. Yes I believe in the scripture you quoted.
 

SimpleMan

Member
I apologize for you any mis-understanding

You opened yourself up on a pedestal of free questions and answers, now I see retraction from this position?

Ok, so you hold Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, "light of the world" and his written words as supreme authotity, you are a "Born Again" christian

We have established that Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma is authoritative within freemasonry, and "Was" handed out to initiates by governing authority within freemasonry
I'm not retracting my position at all. I'm here to answer questions regarding Freemasonry.
I've lived in both Oklahoma and Kansas all my life and have Masonic, and Shrine memberships in both states.
I went to the smartest guy I knew in masonry in both states. They both agree that up until the mid 1950's Morals and Dogma were given to each new Mason.

I did some investigating for you so as to better answer your question.

The men that participated and read Pike are in their 80's, if they're alive.

Pike stopped being relevant in Freemasonry over 60 years ago. There are at least 3 generations of men that may not have ever heard of Pike, let alone read that book.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Must be a glutton for punishment, but here I go again.

If anyone has any questions about Freemasonry, please step up and ask. I will do my upmost best and answer honestly.
If you just want to throw stones, start your own thread.
I'm a 33rd degree Master Mason and have been involved with Freemasonry on a national and international stage for over 25 years. Mainly working with the Scottish Rite Childrens hospitals. I've personally flew 100's of kids and families to these hospitals for 40 some years. I took my passion for flying and turned it into a way to help a family.

So be nice, or be gone.

Straight questions with straight answers.
Hi... as a former Mormon, I have a question about Freemasonry and Mormonism. How do Masons feel about Joseph Smith copying a lot of their ceremonies into his temple rituals?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
I'm not retracting my position at all. I'm here to answer questions regarding Freemasonry.
I've lived in both Oklahoma and Kansas all my life and have Masonic, and Shrine memberships in both states.
I went to the smartest guy I knew in masonry in both states. They both agree that up until the mid 1950's Morals and Dogma were given to each new Mason.

I did some investigating for you so as to better answer your question.

The men that participated and read Pike are in their 80's, if they're alive.

Pike stopped being relevant in Freemasonry over 60 years ago. There are at least 3 generations of men that may not have ever heard of Pike, let alone read that book.
Do you deny Albert Pike was a recognized leader and foundation in American Freemasonry?

Do you deny his work in "Morals and Dogma"?
 
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Truth7t7

Well-known member
I believe I've answered this question more than once. Yes I believe in the scripture you quoted.
In Christianity There Are No Secrets?

In Freemasonry There Are Secrets?

Which Do You Hold As The Guiding Light, Both Use The Name "God"?

Jesus Christ In Christianity Or Freemasonry?

John 18:20KJV
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Matthew 6:24KJV
24 No man can serve two masters:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
 
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SimpleMan

Member
In Christianity There Are No Secrets?

In Freemasonry There Are Secrets?

Which Do You Hold As The Guiding Light, Both Use The Name "God"?

Jesus Christ In Christianity Or Freemasonry?

John 18:20KJV
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Matthew 6:24KJV
24 No man can serve two masters:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
I serve the same God I professed to serving the first 10 times you asked and I answered in the affirmative.

No secrets in Christianity or the bible? Better look that up and get back to me.

You are getting very close to the end of my rope. Either continue with the guidelines we originally discussed or just move on.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
I serve the same God I professed to serving the first 10 times you asked and I answered in the affirmative.

No secrets in Christianity or the bible? Better look that up and get back to me.

You are getting very close to the end of my rope. Either continue with the guidelines we originally discussed or just move on.
It's pretty Simple, Jesus Christ Had No Secrets, His Words Are Before Your Eyes

In Christianity There Are No Secrets?

In Freemasonry There Are Secrets?

Which Do You Hold As The Guiding Light, Both Use The Name "God"?

Jesus Christ In Christianity Or Freemasonry?

Amen or So Mote It Be?

John 18:20KJV
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Matthew 6:24KJV
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
 

SimpleMan

Member
Hi... as a former Mormon, I have a question about Freemasonry and Mormonism. How do Masons feel about Joseph Smith copying a lot of their ceremonies into his temple rituals?
Sorry, i just noticed your question.
In all seriousness, he just plain stole a large part of our ritual work, our words, signs, and handshakes.
I've argued with mormons over this fact for years.
The one question they can't answer is that he was involved in Freemasonry years before he came up with his cult.
In fact, for years mormons were not allowed to be masons. I think the reasons are obvious!
They've relaxed those rules but prefer they join one of their momon lodges.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Must be a glutton for punishment, but here I go again.

If anyone has any questions about Freemasonry, please step up and ask. I will do my upmost best and answer honestly.
If you just want to throw stones, start your own thread.
I'm a 33rd degree Master Mason and have been involved with Freemasonry on a national and international stage for over 25 years. Mainly working with the Scottish Rite Childrens hospitals. I've personally flew 100's of kids and families to these hospitals for 40 some years. I took my passion for flying and turned it into a way to help a family.

So be nice, or be gone.

Straight questions with straight answers.
Why can't there be a Mason Lodge that excludes initiation vows & all the vows following for each degree earned? I heard whenever an initiate question making such a vow, they'd reassure them that it doesn't really mean anything and to go ahead and do it, swearing it on a Bible.

But the Bible says... God hates false swearers. So who do you think the initiate should listen to? The Masons or God?

Zechariah 8:17And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord.

Jesus even spoke against making any vows that are His to keep in regards to Christians erring by making a commitment to Christ. Jesus began by referring to how the Jews performed their oaths unto the Lord and then said not to even swear at all in making an oath because swearing is voicing their sincerity to finish that oath.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Verse 36 testifies why He said that because making an oath is telling God & men you are going to do this.

Numbers 30:22 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Even Promise Keepers movement lied about God giving grace for men to keep trying as if God gives grace to sin. Some believe that God will help them keep their commitment, but God warned us about making hasty vows & why.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

A believer's vow or commitment or promise is a work of his hands for why God will not help him. It is his oath and he will do it or else.

Many believers have been led astray in bondages. Some adding marriage vows to God's covenant of marriage when no one should be adding any such vows to that covenant of marriage as it is God joining them together & not their vows.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Now if they that do circumcision which is the smallest letter of the law, are entitled to do the whole law, what do you think making a vow to God, swearing it on the Bible is? The biggest letter of the law.

The only time God will help anyone if they recognize they cannot finish, let alone keep the vow, so they can call on God to free them from that bondage as they ask for forgiveness as Jesus Christ is just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness. That said, the believer should not take up any more man made bondage again, trusting Jesus to lead them away from such bondages to live by faith in Him & all His promises to us per the New Covenant that He needs nothing from us other than to believe Him at His Word that He will help us to follow Him.

That is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith, but the law is not of faith, and those that do them, placing themselves under the law, must live in them and be judged by it, unless they repent by asking Jesus for forgiveness & His help not to make such vows again, but rather trust Him as our Good Shepherd & friend to help us to follow Him by faith & His words alone.

So this swearing the oath on the Bible and not being really held to it is an appearance of evil that there can be no rationalizing it, and so I do ask you why can't a Mason Lodge filled with Christians, do away with the initiation oath and all other oaths for advancing degree if they wish to avoid this sin against God? is there some authority over each lodge to prevent a Christian lodge for doing that?

Or would that be like staying in a Catholic church for what they represent even though a Catholic does not believe in the works of Catholicism because he believes he is saved by faith in Jesus Christ? So even though he may not participate in the Mass, other Catholics will see him as staying in the Church to play it safe as if his faith in Jesus Christ is not enough, thus they cannot see his faith?

So a "Christian" Mason Lodge will not be seen as a witness to other lodges if what they are doing inside in regards to keeping their faith in following Jesus in the Lodge is not known nor cannot be seen by other Christians in other Mason Lodge to do the same?

If that is the case, I do wonder why Christians cannot just start a Christian Lodge, dropping Mason from the title of the Lodge altogether?
 

SimpleMan

Member
First off I don't believe it too be a sin to swear an oath.
I've held public office for years and swear an oath after each election. How is that different?
 

Hark

Well-known member
First off I don't believe it too be a sin to swear an oath.
The scripture says so. Society has lulled believers into accepting broad general oaths that they can never truly keep nor finish as they do not understand that by swearing it on the Bible that they are going to do something without God's help. It is their vow & the swearing of it is to declare their sincerity not only to do it but to to finish it. The keeping of any oath is the work of man's hands for why God will judge it.
I've held public office for years and swear an oath after each election. How is that different?
But why do it?

People complain about self serving politicians and breaking their promises from their campaigns to get elected in the performance of the office they hold, so why do it?

Same with the military. People have been court-martialed and even dishonorably discharged so what power does the military oath has? It cannot make the vower keep the vow. All the law does is expose the sin by that vow and thus adding double penalty before God for when the vows are broken.

Looking for assurance by the deed of the law to make a person good and to do good is vain and an offense to God.

Look at the witness vow in the judicial court system where they are to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God. But His words says He cannot help you tell the truth; you either do it or you do not. Then the court will instruct the witness to answer the question put to them in an yes or no answer or else be fined contempt of court, but not every question can be answered in a yes or no by the witness. Can God help that witness there? No. All they really need to do is instruct the witness the penalty for lying on the witness stand because as it is, people have lied on the witness stand regardless of making the oath to tell the whole truth.

Adding extra wedding vows of love from each potential spouse to God's covenant of marriage may very well be why there are so many divorces because love is not boastful and for the Christian, they are supposed to be relying on Jesus Christ all the time by His words that He will supply all the love they need along with other fruits of the Spirit in blessing their marriage in bring fruitful.

This is Hollywood & and the world's programming into seeing what looks like that everybody is doing it and so it must be okay, but it is not..

Even Alcoholics Anonymous & Narcotic Anonymous all have each addict choose a higher power and make a commitment to stay sober; the reward is given to them keeping that commitment; not to the higher power helping them no matter if the addict think that higher power which can be a tree, Britney Spears, or Jesus Christ. So while addicts roll their eyes to each addict's higher power, the credit for their sobriety is given to each addict keeping that commitment. Why? They did it. Not their higher power. And the Bible agrees, even though God knows if they really kept it or not and will be judged by it.

Do you look to yourself to fulfill the duty of your office by keeping that oath and failing the letter of it? Do you believe you will be found justified by the keeping of that oath in Heaven to God having sworn it on the Bible? Then ask Jesus to forgive you, set you free from that oath, and trust Him to help you fulfill the duty of your office in doing good while being good by His grace & by His help.

As it is, my question to you is, can Christians drop Mason from that Lodge and just make it a Christian Lodge, having no oaths in it but keeping the faith in Jesus Christ that He is in us & with us always as we trust Him to help us be good & to do good by His grace & by His help?

Or is there an higher authority reigning over all lodges that no lodge cannot do that?
 

kamaeq

Member
I use the name "Simpleman" as it fits me. I'm just a simple country boy.
Plus I happen to like the song of the same name.
Heh, I always think of the song when I see your name. It is one of my top 100 favorites.

Brother, a real "country boy" is anything but simple. Straightforward, but never simple. Except to elitist authoritarians who try to ram their propaganda down other people's throat.
 

kamaeq

Member
In Christianity There Are No Secrets?

In Freemasonry There Are Secrets?

Which Do You Hold As The Guiding Light, Both Use The Name "God"?

Jesus Christ In Christianity Or Freemasonry?

John 18:20KJV
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Matthew 6:24KJV
24 No man can serve two masters:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Do you read the Bible? Nothing hidden in there? ROFL!

You appear to be claiming (using a verse about God & money) that Freemasonry is a "master"? The most widely spread and truthful claim is that Freemasons tend to be freethinkers, which is why the RCC hates Freemasonry so much, why the Soviets hated Freemasonry so much, why the Nazis hated Freemasonry so much...
Heck it is why every religious and secular authoritarian group hate Freemasons, Jews and Bible believing Christians so much.

There is only one God I follow. He is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. What He has revealed to us can be found in the Bible (special revelation) and Nature (general revelation noted in the Old and New Testaments). He also is the Creator of all things. So why is there any conflict between these concepts in your mind?
Other than you apparently following the hoaxers.
 
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