Atheism and free will: proof that God exists.

[5wize]

You can't pick a point in time when people started rejecting God?

No. Not a year, Month, week, day, hour or minute. Is that what you are looking for? If so, to what purpose?

Another thing to consider in the migration away from belief was the folly of monotheism itself. It took all the forces that pagans were worshipping separately, the different aspects of nature, the fates, etc... and consolidated them into a singular focused God that they continued to try and define and refine to fit their witnessed experience. It made it easier to isolate and discard as it was found that the definitions and apologetics surrounding this now singular phenomenon continually failed the smell test of real experience.

 

[Gus Bovona]

I understand the difference between objective and subjective.data. I understand the line you have drawn.. I don't believe that I've crossed the line. I've had both types of experiences of God, internal and external, subjective and objective.

How do you justify internal, subjective experiences as counting for any evidentiary value unless you have some method by which such evidence is evaluated, in and of itself? Do you have such a method or process?

 

[Caroljeen]

There are two kinds of "reject"

1. "I believe this, and want no part of it", and
2. "I cannot believe this."

Even if the consequences are the same, they shouldn't be - one rejection is voluntary, the other is not.

This is equivocation.

If I propose marriage to somebody in such a way that they don't know it's happening, their not saying yes is not a rejection of the proposal, and it is asinine to consider them equivalent.

To reject is to be aware of, and not accept.

Then you reject the idea that some sound-of-mind people simply find the gospel impossible for them to choose to believe?

Nobody that understands the message, has reasonable grounds for not believing it?

I'm saying that you have 2 choices to accept it by faith or reject it by unbelief. You don't believe it for whatever your reason is. Both are a voluntary choice.
No, I don't reject that some people have difficulty believing the gospel. You are one of those people. I was one of those people.
You either believe it and obey the gospel and become a follower of Christ or you don't. You're rationalization is not going to change that you refuse to believe it.

 

[Eightcrackers]

I'm saying that you have 2 choices to accept it by faith or reject it by unbelief.

And I am saying that "rejection by unbelief", mangled as that phrase is, not voluntary

I am not a Christian, because I cannot believe it, not because I don't "want" to.
Don't believe that? Doesn't mean it's not true.

You don't believe it for whatever your reason is. Both are a voluntary choice.

Called it.

No, I don't reject that some people have difficulty believing the gospel. You are one of those people. I was one of those people.

And if I go to my grave as one of those people, I am treated the same as those that believed it, and rejected it.

Your god is not fair.

You either believe it and obey the gospel and become a follower of Christ or you don't. You're rationalization is not going to change that you refuse to believe it.

Your labelling it refusal, does not make it so.

I get it - you have to think of it as refusal, because the Bible tells you to, but the Bible - and you - are wrong.
Nothing I can do about that.

 

[5wize]

I'm saying that you have 2 choices to accept it by faith or reject it by unbelief. You don't believe it for whatever your reason is. Both are a voluntary choice.
No, I don't reject that some people have difficulty believing the gospel. You are one of those people. I was one of those people.
You either believe it and obey the gospel and become a follower of Christ or you don't. You're rationalization is not going to change that you refuse to believe it.

Here’s a thought experiment to help you understand what 8crackers is getting to.

2 cups - 1 ball. You turn your back and someone puts the ball under one cup.

You turn around and lift up one of the cups and find the ball under it. Is it a voluntary choice for you to now not believe the ball is under the other cup or is it an automatic and rational conviction based on your experience? Do you have to make a choice concerning the disposition of the ball?

 

[Caroljeen]

How do you justify internal, subjective experiences as counting for any evidentiary value unless you have some method by which such evidence is evaluated, in and of itself? Do you have such a method or process?

I don't have a method or process except by having many subjective experiences of the presence of God from which to learn and distinguish them whether internally or externally, from myself or from some other spirit.

 

[Caroljeen]

And I am saying that "rejection by unbelief", mangled as that phrase is, not voluntary

Set aside your determinism.

I am not a Christian, because I cannot believe it, not because I don't "want" to.

Why not?
Why can't you believe in the faintest possibility that a God might exist. Just a generic God, whose name you don't know and reach out to him.

Don't believe that? Doesn't mean it's not true.

Called it.

It a choice that God is giving you to make. If you can't believe it, then your choice is not to believe because YOU can't.
It's not God's fault that YOU can't. God did not make you in such a way that YOU can believe in him.

And if I go to my grave as one of those people, I am treated the same as those that believed it, and rejected it.

I hope you don't but if you do, then it is you who have hardened your heart against believing and against God who is trying to draw you to himself, to belief. I'm sorry I have to say these things to you.

Your god is not fair.

It may seem that way to you.

Your labelling it refusal, does not make it so.

Then what is it?

I get it - you have to think of it as refusal, because the Bible tells you to, but the Bible - and you - are wrong.
Nothing I can do about that.

What I think doesn't matter in the scheme of things. If the Christian God is real, then what would you think that He would think of your inability to believe the gospel?

 

[Tiburon]

Would you attribute it to the age of enlightenment?

What? The rise of Atheism?
As I said it has been around, at least recorded, since the ancient Greeks. The only thing I see that has changed over time has been the freedom to openly admit to holding to it. I'd say it has always been around.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Set aside your determinism.

Nothing to do with determinism - I would be of the opinion that belief is not a choice, even if we had free will.

I cannot and will not accept that you could choose to believe that, say, your own mother never existed, for example.

Why not?
Why can't you believe in the faintest possibility that a God might exist.

Now you're changing the argument.
I never said I didn't accept the possibility.

It a choice that God is giving you to make.

I'll repeat: I cannot - cannot - choose to believe that Christianity is true. If you don't believe that (and I know you don't, because the alternative is that your god is at fault) we are at an impasse.

(But think whether or not you could choose to believe that Christianity is false - if you couldn't, expecting me to be able to choose to believe that it's true, would be a double-standard.)

If you can't believe it, then your choice is not to believe because YOU can't.

I can't lift a Ford Taurus over my head.
I am not choosing not to be able to do it. That is asinine.

I hope you don't but if you do, then it is you who have hardened your heart against believing and against God who is trying to draw you to himself, to belief. I'm sorry I have to say these things to you.

And I'm sorry that you have to believe them.

Then what is it?

You lift a Ford Mondeo over your head.
Can't? Why are you choosing not to?

I get it - the idea that atheists are not choosing non-belief, is unpalatable to you.
But that's a you-problem.

If the Christian God is real, then what would you think that He would think of your inability to believe the gospel?

Knowing everything, he would know that it is honest, and involuntary.
And if he consigns me to hell anyway, there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[Gus Bovona]

I don't have a method or process except by having many subjective experiences of the presence of God from which to learn and distinguish them whether internally or externally, from myself or from some other spirit.

I'm asking, what process or method do you use to distinguish the actual subjective experiences of God from those that might (I'm not saying they are, just hypothetically might) be made up by yourself unconsciously (or is it subconsciously)?

 

[Caroljeen]

Nothing to do with determinism - I would be of the opinion that belief is not a choice, even if we had free will.

Okay, you don't believe the gospel. You don't believe that Jesus died to make an atonement for your sins and to reconcile you to God. You don't even believe you were estranged from God because of your sins. You don't even believe there is a God. That's your decision to believe those things.

I cannot and will not accept that you could choose to believe that, say, your own mother never existed, for example.

I still don't know what this is suppose to mean.

Now you're changing the argument.
I never said I didn't accept the possibility.

You can use that possibility to reach out to God. That is the glimmer of hope.
Doctors treat "possible, likely, suspected" diseases all of the time. They treat things that they are not certain exist because of a couple of symptoms. Why can't you do the same with God?

I'll repeat: I cannot - cannot - choose to believe that Christianity is true. If you don't believe that (and I know you don't, because the alternative is that your god is at fault) we are at an impasse.

We have been at an impasse. I believe that you believe that you cannot choose to believe that Christianity is true. I'm not asking you to stretch that far. I'm only asking you to reach out to God, the unknown God, and see who responds.

As much as you cannot choose to believe Christianity is true is the same with me to believe that my God is at fault in any way. I know him to be good, gentle, kind, humble, everything that you say he isn't.

Nothing to do with determinism - I would be of the opinion that belief is not a choice, even if we had free will.

I cannot and will not accept that you could choose to believe that, say, your own mother never existed, for example.

Now you're changing the argument.
I never said I didn't accept the possibility.

I'll repeat: I cannot - cannot - choose to believe that Christianity is true. If you don't believe that (and I know you don't, because the alternative is that your god is at fault) we are at an impasse.

(But think whether or not you could choose to believe that Christianity is false - if you couldn't, expecting me to be able to choose to believe that it's true, would be a double-standard.)

I can't lift a Ford Taurus over my head.
I am not choosing not to be able to do it. That is asinine.

And I'm sorry that you have to believe them.

You lift a Ford Mondeo over your head.
Can't? Why are you choosing not to?

I get it - the idea that atheists are not choosing non-belief, is unpalatable to you.
But that's a you-problem.

Knowing everything, he would know that it is honest, and involuntary.
And if he consigns me to hell anyway, there's nothing I can do about it.

(But think whether or not you could choose to believe that Christianity is false - if you couldn't, expecting me to be able to choose to believe that it's true, would be a double-standard.)

I can't lift a Ford Taurus over my head.
I am not choosing not to be able to do it. That is asinine.

And I'm sorry that you have to believe them.

You lift a Ford Mondeo over your head.
Can't? Why are you choosing not to?

I get it - the idea that atheists are not choosing non-belief, is unpalatable to you.
But that's a you-problem.

Knowing everything, he would know that it is honest, and involuntary.
And if he consigns me to hell anyway, there's nothing I can do about it.

It is not impossible for you to reach out to God if there is the most microscopic possibility that he exists in your mind.
I know that I cannot lift a car over my head.
It is honest and involuntary because you can't believe in God but you won't rule out the possibility that God exists. That sounds like something else to me.

 

[Caroljeen]

I'm asking, what process or method do you use to distinguish the actual subjective experiences of God from those that might (I'm not saying they are, just hypothetically might) be made up by yourself unconsciously (or is it subconsciously)?

As I explained to you when I was doing my laundry that day, I felt the presence of God upon me, not in me, and I felt to get on my knees and pray. Words in English began to pour out of my mouth without my agency. I understood it to be the Holy Spirit speaking through me. All the while these words, phrases, sentences were proceeding from my mouth, I was so surprised by what was happening, that in my mind I was praising and thanking God for something wonderful he had recently done for me at the same time words were coming out of my mouth that I did not put there. I wasn't paying attention to the words coming from my mouth.

So what is my method of distinguishing this experience as coming from God as opposed to myself? I did not cause those words to come out of my mouth, they just did. It would be impossible for me to do such a thing. You try it.

Have you ever heard about the gift of the Holy Spirit that God gives to those who obey the gospel?

 

[Gus Bovona]

As I explained to you when I was doing my laundry that day, I felt the presence of God upon me, not in me, and I felt to get on my knees and pray. Words in English began to pour out of my mouth without my agency. I understood it to be the Holy Spirit speaking through me. All the while these words, phrases, sentences were proceeding from my mouth, I was so surprised by what was happening, that in my mind I was praising and thanking God for something wonderful he had recently done for me at the same time words were coming out of my mouth that I did not put there. I wasn't paying attention to the words coming from my mouth.

So what is my method of distinguishing this experience as coming from God as opposed to myself? I did not cause those words to come out of my mouth, they just did. It would be impossible for me to do such a thing. You try it.

Have you ever heard about the gift of the Holy Spirit that God gives to those who obey the gospel?

Its not whether doing that on your own is impossible, it’s which is more likely: human psychology is inscutable to people sometimes, and people can do things they’d never believe possible, or the creator of the universe talks to you in your head so that there is no independent way to verify what’s actually happening?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Okay, you don't believe the gospel. You don't believe that Jesus died to make an atonement for your sins and to reconcile you to God. You don't even believe you were estranged from God because of your sins. You don't even believe there is a God. That's your decision to believe those things.

No, it is not.
I know you'll never believe this, but it's true nonetheless.

I still don't know what this is suppose to mean.

If belief is a choice, it follows that you would be able to choose to believe literally anything.
And I simply don't accept that you could choose to believe that Yahweh does not exist.

Thus, to accuse me of being able to choose that believe Yahweh does exist, is to engage in a double standard.

Doctors treat "possible, likely, suspected" diseases all of the time. They treat things that they are not certain exist because of a couple of symptoms. Why can't you do the same with God?

Doctors do not treat possible diseases where such treatments, if the disease is not present, would endager the patient.
You may believe that Christianity has no penalty, if it's wrong, but this is not the case - if Christianity is false, I have wasted the one and only life I will ever get, believing a lie.

We have been at an impasse. I believe that you believe that you cannot choose to believe that Christianity is true. I'm not asking you to stretch that far. I'm only asking you to reach out to God, the unknown God, and see who responds.

I'm sorry that you don't seem to grasp this, but reaching out to X requires a conscious assent to the existence of X, not the mere possibility of X.

Also, if I got no response, you would merely explain it away as another failure on my part; I am not interested in playing "heads, I win, tails, you lose"; a test must be able to fail, if it is any test at all.

As much as you cannot choose to believe Christianity is true is the same with me to believe that my God is at fault in any way.

Then you stipulate to the fact that I can't choose to believe in your god, or the gospel, as I've been trying to tell you all along.

You can't choose to believe that your god is at fault; I can't choose to believe that he exists. Sauce for the goose...

It is not impossible for you to reach out to God if there is the most microscopic possibility that he exists in your mind.

Yes, it is.

If I walk into a room that I think is empty and ask "is there anybody there?", even if somebody answers, I was not addressing them.
I didn't know they were there.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Okay, you don't believe the gospel. You don't believe that Jesus died to make an atonement for your sins and to reconcile you to God. You don't even believe you were estranged from God because of your sins. You don't even believe there is a God. That's your decision to believe those things.

I ask this almost certain that you will not answer, but here goes:

if - if - it were the case that my disbelief were not a choice, and that I truly am unable to believe, would your god be at fault?

 

[Whatsisface]

As I explained to you when I was doing my laundry that day, I felt the presence of God upon me, not in me, and I felt to get on my knees and pray. Words in English began to pour out of my mouth without my agency. I understood it to be the Holy Spirit speaking through me. All the while these words, phrases, sentences were proceeding from my mouth, I was so surprised by what was happening, that in my mind I was praising and thanking God for something wonderful he had recently done for me at the same time words were coming out of my mouth that I did not put there. I wasn't paying attention to the words coming from my mouth.

So what is my method of distinguishing this experience as coming from God as opposed to myself? I did not cause those words to come out of my mouth, they just did. It would be impossible for me to do such a thing. You try it.

Have you ever heard about the gift of the Holy Spirit that God gives to those who obey the gospel?

You are saying, what else could it be but God, when it also looks very much like a psychological, emotional episode. You were very much affected by your friend who spoke in tongues, this looks like that impression coming out in you.

 

[Caroljeen]

Its not whether doing that on your own is impossible, it’s which is more likely: human psychology is inscutable to people sometimes, and people can do things they’d never believe possible, or the creator of the universe talks to you in your head so that there is no independent way to verify what’s actually happening?

I understand why you think that it is all in my head. If it truly was all coming from the my mind, then I would not want to believe it. I have been interested in truth this whole journey from atheism to theism and now.

I'm curious why these things would be if evolution were true? How would it be possible for the natural emergent properties of the brain to come up with something that does not naturally exist? It shouldn't, right? The brain should only concur with that which evolved it, nature.
I'm not saying that evolution is false but that for this to be true God has to be involved in the process.

Isn't that enough proof that God does exist?

Why do you think that Ian Hutchinson believes "that the religious impulse is almost universal in humans"? it was in his opening remarks.

 

[Caroljeen]

I ask this almost certain that you will not answer, but here goes:

if - if - it were the case that my disbelief were not a choice, and that I truly am unable to believe, would your god be at fault?

If your disbelief were not a choice and you were unable to believe then my God would not be at fault.
It would have to be the Calvinist's God at fault and I would not be able to love or worship him, either.

 

[Caroljeen]

You are saying, what else could it be but God, when it also looks very much like a psychological, emotional episode. You were very much affected by your friend who spoke in tongues, this looks like that impression coming out in you.

I have to respectfully disagree.

 

[Eightcrackers]

If your disbelief were not a choice and you were unable to believe then my God would not be at fault.
It would have to be the Calvinist's God at fault and I would not be able to love or worship him, either.

What would convince you that my disbelief is not by choice?