Atheism and free will: proof that God exists.

I was talking about the process for evaluating the evidentiary value of a subjective, experience. A prophecy presumably prophesies an objective reality, which is a different matter.

Also, a prophecy has to be specific, and not fulfillable by multiple potential events, cant be contaminating the reports of the fulfillment of the prophecy, etc., etc.


Except you didn’t, as I recall, produce an actual logical distinction for which, after properly rejecting all but one explanation, we would be left with the necessarily true one. But we’d have to go back and re-litigate that one. Which is OK if you want to.


Strictly speaking, I definitely would consider it, I have considered it, but I have found it in sufficient.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Mere writings, without a secure chain of custody for the originals, when we have no physical objects, nor people we can interrogate, about what is arguably the most fantastic claim one could make, isn’t enough.


But what I believe in this regard is believed on the basis of an open and articulable epistemology, one that has had much success (as used by science). As I’ve said, I’m completely open to some other process or method, but every time I ask you for it, I never get back from what exactly what that process or method is. So it’s not my fault I’m stuck with science.


it’s insufficient evidence for accepting the claim, and it has no articulable process or method of checking, etc.
The evidence that God has given me is sufficient for me to believe that he exists.
If it doesn't meet your measures of evidence is beside the point as your measures of evidence do not include the subjective nor provide an accurate measure of the supernatural.
 
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If the possibility of God is nil, in your mind
It's not - I cannot say that it is impossible for Christianity to be correct.

This does not mean that I am able to choose to believe it, or that my disbelief is a choice.
You can't even choose to believe or not to believe so its a moot point.
There is a difference between believing that a thing is possible, and believing that thing. See the coin example.

Is it possible? Yes.

Can I choose to believe that a one-in-1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 event occurred? NO.
 
It's not - I cannot say that it is impossible for Christianity to be correct.

This does not mean that I am able to choose to believe it, or that my disbelief is a choice.

There is a difference between believing that a thing is possible, and believing that thing. See the coin example.

Is it possible? Yes.

Can I choose to believe that a one-in-1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 event occurred? NO.
Then attempt to rule it out instead of living with this minute possibility that it may be correct in the face of so many that believe it is correct.
 
Then let's just leave it at "God" for argument sake.
That's a larger concession than it may appear. There's so much diversity in how individual people think about gods that this move can really only support a practically contentless "something I know not what." That is cold comfort to the Christian!
 
The evidence that God has given me is sufficient for me to believe that he exists.
If it doesn't meet your measures of evidence is beside the point as your measures of evidence do not include the subjective nor provide an accurate measure of the supernatural.
I’m saying that your epistemology is flawed. A subjective experience, in and of itself, should not be sufficient for anyone to draw a conclusion about objective reality, absent some method or process used to check one’s initial conclusions.
 
That's a larger concession than it may appear. There's so much diversity in how individual people think about gods that this move can really only support a practically contentless "something I know not what." That is cold comfort to the Christian!
If 8crackers were to actually seek the generic God, he would find out that Jesus would answer him.
 
I’m saying that your epistemology is flawed. A subjective experience, in and of itself, should not be sufficient for anyone to draw a conclusion about objective reality, absent some method or process used to check one’s initial conclusions.
Now, at this time, I feel justified in what I believe concerning God. It took a number of years to feel that way and many, many subjective experiences of God and some objective. I'm glad I didn't talk to you all when I first became a Christian. I might not have lasted very long.
 
Now, at this time, I feel justified in what I believe concerning God.
Shouldn't the prior goal be to believe what is true? The way we do that is by having a proper epistemology, so that we ensure that we don't fall prey to all the ways the mind leads us astray. It's hard to be right sometimes, so we need a way to be sure we're on the right track.

It took a number of years to feel that way and many, many subjective experiences of God and some objective.
A greater number of subjective experiences still don't add up to anything objectively true.
 
No; convenient for the religious.
It's just another reason not to rule out if He is real or not by reaching out to him first.
I hope you're joking.
I wasn't when I wrote it this morning.
And, because there are people that die not knowing he's real, you must also believe that these people are at fault.
Pity.
There are many reasons why there are people who will die not knowing if God is real. God is not at fault.
 
If 8crackers were to actually seek the generic God, he would find out that Jesus would answer him.
I tried it once in a desperate moment. I got nothing back.

I think the reason I got nothing back is that despite asking, I couldn't get past my epistemic reasons for not believing.
 
I tried it once in a desperate moment. I got nothing back.

I think the reason I got nothing back is that despite asking, I couldn't get past my epistemic reasons for not believing.
That is a problem for sure.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
 
That is a problem for sure.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
If you start by believing in the first place, you can never know you've found the real thing.

What rewards do you get by earnestly seeking?
 
I tried it once in a desperate moment. I got nothing back.

I think the reason I got nothing back is that despite asking, I couldn't get past my epistemic reasons for not believing.
After I prayed, I didn't know if my prayer had been answered. I didn't know until I woke up the next day.
I didn't have any type of subjective experience. What was bothering me was gone. That was enough to begin thinking that God heard and answered me. It was many months until I was open to hearing someone tell me about their experience with God.
 
After I prayed, I didn't know if my prayer had been answered. I didn't know until I woke up the next day.
I didn't have any type of subjective experience. What was bothering me was gone. That was enough to begin thinking that God heard and answered me. It was many months until I was open to hearing someone tell me about their experience with God.
Was it impossible that that was bothering you could have gone away on its own?
 
Shouldn't the prior goal be to believe what is true?
My goal is to believe what is true before I prayed that time and then after.
The way we do that is by having a proper epistemology, so that we ensure that we don't fall prey to all the ways the mind leads us astray. It's hard to be right sometimes, so we need a way to be sure we're on the right track.
I understand what you are saying to me. I didn't imagine any of the experiences of the presence of God. They just happened without me expecting him to show up. Atheism is no longer the track for me. It's a dead end when it comes to truth, imo.
A greater number of subjective experiences still don't add up to anything objectively true.
It's enough for me to believe God exists and that his name is Jesus.
 
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