Atheism and the Greek (Gnostic/Egptian/Hermetic) Model of God!

docphin5

Member
There is a bit of hyperbole in the title but a real point to be made or at least provoke some thought.

Could modern atheists be the cousins of the first Greek Christians who were gnostics? Impossible, right? But what atheists have in common with the first Christians was the idea that God himself is unknowable. I am not talking about the Christian orthodox model of God or the Semitic model of God but rather the Greek model of God who is unknowable in absolute terms.

Dungen says that of the four historical theo-ontological models of the Divine, the Greek model of God "is a Principle of principles, the best of the best (Plato), the unmoved mover (Aristotle), the One even ecstasy does not reveal, impersonal and in no way evil or tainted by absence or privation of being (Plotinus), the First Intellect (Ibn Sina), a "God of the philosophers" (Whitehead). This abstract God figures in intellectual theologies, in humanism & in atheism. In the latter, by the "alpha privativum" of the Divine, as in a-theism, an absolute term is produced, but this time by negation instead of by affirmation."

The same description of God, that is, "by negation instead of affirmation", can also be found in the earliest gnostic writings. For example, in the Tripartite Tractate widely considered to be the work of Valentinius, the God, the Father, is described in this way, "He has such an existence that he has neither figure nor form that can be perceived by the senses. This means that he is incomprehensible as well; and if he is incomprehensible, it follows that he is unknowable."

In the Eugnostos the Blessed, the God is described as "... infinite, incomprehensible, and constantly imperishable. The One is unequalled, immutably good, without fault, everlasting, blessed, unknowable, yet it knows itself. The One is immeasurable, untraceable, perfect, without defect. The One is blessed, imperishably, and is called the Father of all."

It is also found in the ancient Wisdom according to Dungen in the Egyptian God Amun. Dungen writes "In the Old Kingdom record, Amun was conceptualized as a hidden, primordial deity, a great one, who existed before creation came into being and who was associated with the throne of Egypt. (...) regarding the transcendence of Amun-Re, two aspects are distinguished :
  • pre-creational transcendence : Amun is primordial and so he spatiotemporally transcends the order or creation (this is the traditional line of thought, starting with Atum) ;​
  • sacred transcendence : Amun-Re is the self-created "soul" ("Ba") of creation, the "summum ens", the supreme being. He is present in his creation as a sacred, hidden god, a supreme being, that transcends all other beings, because Amun is the all-prevasive, sacred unity in all beings that remains hidden for his transformations (late Amun-Re theology or Amenism).​

It is also found in the New Testament, when the Jesus-in-Paul says, "When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and you Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Matthew 6:6) or when Paul writes, "To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, (Ephesians 3:8)

So next time an a-theist says he does not believe in the existence of the divine, he could possibly just mean that God is unknowable, just like the Greeks, early Christians, and Egyptians. But I don't want to leave you with God is unknowable, therefore, case closed. I would add that just as the Greeks, first Christians, and Egyptians describe the transcendent God as unknowable, God makes himself known through his creation. In other words, what is knowable about God can be found in the things he has produced, that is, us. The divine may be known when we see his reflection in ourself and each other, for example, in the good, truth, and justice found in ourselves. And since we are connected to everything else in the universe then the divine is present in his creation through us.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

 
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Torin

Member
You have a point in that atheists and some classical theists would use similar language to characterize God. For example, Plotinus or Eriugena would be comfortable saying that the One or God does not exist, provided that this admission was understood in the context of their overall philosophical framework.

However, I think the classical theists who say this sort of thing have something more mystical in mind than the atheists that they verbally agree with do. To mark that difference, Plotinus would probably prefer to say the One is beyond existence or nonexistence, and Eriugena would probably prefer to say that God is not real but more than real.

So if we allow everyone to fully articulate their thoughts, even in slogan form, the initial verbal agreement disappears rather quickly.

I am not a scholar though. Thoughts?
 

Mike McK

Active member
There is a bit of hyperbole in the title but a real point to be made or at least provoke some thought.

Could modern atheists be the cousins of the first Greek Christians who were gnostics? Impossible, right? But what atheists have in common with the first Christians was the idea that God himself is unknowable. I am not talking about the Christian orthodox model of God or the Semitic model of God but rather the Greek model of God who is unknowable in absolute terms.

Dungen says that of the four historical theo-ontological models of the Divine, the Greek model of God "is a Principle of principles, the best of the best (Plato), the unmoved mover (Aristotle), the One even ecstasy does not reveal, impersonal and in no way evil or tainted by absence or privation of being (Plotinus), the First Intellect (Ibn Sina), a "God of the philosophers" (Whitehead). This abstract God figures in intellectual theologies, in humanism & in atheism. In the latter, by the "alpha privativum" of the Divine, as in a-theism, an absolute term is produced, but this time by negation instead of by affirmation."

The same description of God, that is, "by negation instead of affirmation", can also be found in the earliest gnostic writings. For example, in the Tripartite Tractate widely considered to be the work of Valentinius, the God, the Father, is described in this way, "He has such an existence that he has neither figure nor form that can be perceived by the senses. This means that he is incomprehensible as well; and if he is incomprehensible, it follows that he is unknowable."

In the Eugnostos the Blessed, the God is described as "... infinite, incomprehensible, and constantly imperishable. The One is unequalled, immutably good, without fault, everlasting, blessed, unknowable, yet it knows itself. The One is immeasurable, untraceable, perfect, without defect. The One is blessed, imperishably, and is called the Father of all."

It is also found in the ancient Wisdom according to Dungen in the Egyptian God Amun. Dungen writes "In the Old Kingdom record, Amun was conceptualized as a hidden, primordial deity, a great one, who existed before creation came into being and who was associated with the throne of Egypt. (...) regarding the transcendence of Amun-Re, two aspects are distinguished :
  • pre-creational transcendence : Amun is primordial and so he spatiotemporally transcends the order or creation (this is the traditional line of thought, starting with Atum) ;​
  • sacred transcendence : Amun-Re is the self-created "soul" ("Ba") of creation, the "summum ens", the supreme being. He is present in his creation as a sacred, hidden god, a supreme being, that transcends all other beings, because Amun is the all-prevasive, sacred unity in all beings that remains hidden for his transformations (late Amun-Re theology or Amenism).​

It is also found in the New Testament, when the Jesus-in-Paul says, "When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and you Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Matthew 6:6) or when Paul writes, "To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, (Ephesians 3:8)

So next time an a-theist says he does not believe in the existence of the divine, he could possibly just mean that God is unknowable, just like the Greeks, early Christians, and Egyptians. But I don't want to leave you with God is unknowable, therefore, case closed. I would add that just as the Greeks, first Christians, and Egyptians describe the transcendent God as unknowable, God makes himself known through his creation. In other words, what is knowable about God can be found in the things he has produced, that is, us. The divine may be known when we see his reflection in ourself and each other, for example, in the good, truth, and justice found in ourselves. And since we are connected to everything else in the universe then the divine is present in his creation through us.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Sorry. I stopped taking you seriously at "Christians who were gnostics (sic)".
 

docphin5

Member
You have a point in that atheists and some classical theists would use similar language to characterize God. For example, Plotinus or Eriugena would be comfortable saying that the One or God does not exist, provided that this admission was understood in the context of their overall philosophical framework.

However, I think the classical theists who say this sort of thing have something more mystical in mind than the atheists that they verbally agree with do. To mark that difference, Plotinus would probably prefer to say the One is beyond existence or nonexistence, and Eriugena would probably prefer to say that God is not real but more than real.

So if we allow everyone to fully articulate their thoughts, even in slogan form, the initial verbal agreement disappears rather quickly.

I am not a scholar though. Thoughts?
Maybe so, but I found it interesting that one model of the divine (the Greek model) has this fuzzy area where a-theists and 1st century theists (gnostic, Greek, Egyptian, Hermetic) seem to be describing the same thing, a God that cannot be known by us because (theologically speaking) he precedes existence as we know it. Therefore, the "a" in a-theist stands for the privation of God in the sense that God cannot be known (he is secret, he is hidden, he is private?) versus the affirmation that he does not exist. How many times have I heard an a-theist say in these forums (before they were deleted) that they cannot prove God does not exist but rather they lack evidence for his existence. Many times. And it is a position taken on the absence of evidence rather than the presence of evidence. In this case a classical theist would agree that God himself cannot be known but what is known about him can be found in us and in the cosmos we inhabit. It might even be possible to know of him if the good, just, and truth within us is as he is.

An alpha privative or, rarely, privative a (from Latin alpha prīvātīvum, from Ancient Greek α στερητικόν) is the prefix a- or an- (before vowels) that is used in Greek and in words borrowed from Greek to express negation or absence,
 
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docphin5

Member
Sorry. I stopped taking you seriously at "Christians who were gnostics (sic)".
It is a fact that the majority of Christians in the first through third centuries were gnostic Christians (e.g. Valentinians, Marcionites, etc.). Who were all the polemics directed against in the writings of the Christian orthodox "Fathers" (excluding Clement of Alexandria, Tatian, and a few others who extolled the virtues of the gnostics) but Christian gnostics? Christian orthodoxy started writing polemics in the second century against those who came before them, that is, the Gnostics. In addition, many scholars of gnosticism today recognize Paul as an instructor of gnostic teachings. You just don't know that because you limit your sources of information to be from those (Christian orthodoxy) who have an agenda, their own agenda.
 

Mike McK

Active member
It is a fact that the majority of Christians in the first through third centuries were gnostic Christians (e.g. Valentinians, Marcionites, etc.).
I'm sorry, but you cannot be a Christian and simultaneously a non-Christian at the same time.
You just don't know that because you limit your sources of information...
Your insults don't affect me and they won't help you in Hell.
 

docphin5

Member
You know how sometimes you hear or read something that is intended to be a minor point to someone else but just resonates like a bell struck once but sounding off for seconds or minutes more. CG Jung made a statement in his book AION that resonated with me but is a bit tangential to the OP (because I have not touched on it yet). He said that the primordial God could not be self aware without the necessity of another (e.g. a Son, a creation) for, self awareness presumes a subject and an object. What a true statement! Therefore, for the primordial God to be self aware he always had his Son in mind, either potentially or in actuality. Therefore, we were always known by God as his sons/daughters because our existence (potentially or actually) affirms who he is, that is, the subject, whereas, we are the object. Anyways, not sure how to tie this in to the OP but working on it. Ha ha!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
There is a bit of hyperbole in the title but a real point to be made or at least provoke some thought.

Could modern atheists be the cousins of the first Greek Christians who were gnostics? Impossible, right? But what atheists have in common with the first Christians was the idea that God himself is unknowable. I am not talking about the Christian orthodox model of God or the Semitic model of God but rather the Greek model of God who is unknowable in absolute terms.

Dungen says that of the four historical theo-ontological models of the Divine, the Greek model of God "is a Principle of principles, the best of the best (Plato), the unmoved mover (Aristotle), the One even ecstasy does not reveal, impersonal and in no way evil or tainted by absence or privation of being (Plotinus), the First Intellect (Ibn Sina), a "God of the philosophers" (Whitehead). This abstract God figures in intellectual theologies, in humanism & in atheism. In the latter, by the "alpha privativum" of the Divine, as in a-theism, an absolute term is produced, but this time by negation instead of by affirmation."

The same description of God, that is, "by negation instead of affirmation", can also be found in the earliest gnostic writings. For example, in the Tripartite Tractate widely considered to be the work of Valentinius, the God, the Father, is described in this way, "He has such an existence that he has neither figure nor form that can be perceived by the senses. This means that he is incomprehensible as well; and if he is incomprehensible, it follows that he is unknowable."

In the Eugnostos the Blessed, the God is described as "... infinite, incomprehensible, and constantly imperishable. The One is unequalled, immutably good, without fault, everlasting, blessed, unknowable, yet it knows itself. The One is immeasurable, untraceable, perfect, without defect. The One is blessed, imperishably, and is called the Father of all."

It is also found in the ancient Wisdom according to Dungen in the Egyptian God Amun. Dungen writes "In the Old Kingdom record, Amun was conceptualized as a hidden, primordial deity, a great one, who existed before creation came into being and who was associated with the throne of Egypt. (...) regarding the transcendence of Amun-Re, two aspects are distinguished :
  • pre-creational transcendence : Amun is primordial and so he spatiotemporally transcends the order or creation (this is the traditional line of thought, starting with Atum) ;​
  • sacred transcendence : Amun-Re is the self-created "soul" ("Ba") of creation, the "summum ens", the supreme being. He is present in his creation as a sacred, hidden god, a supreme being, that transcends all other beings, because Amun is the all-prevasive, sacred unity in all beings that remains hidden for his transformations (late Amun-Re theology or Amenism).​

It is also found in the New Testament, when the Jesus-in-Paul says, "When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and you Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Matthew 6:6) or when Paul writes, "To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things, (Ephesians 3:8)

So next time an a-theist says he does not believe in the existence of the divine, he could possibly just mean that God is unknowable, just like the Greeks, early Christians, and Egyptians. But I don't want to leave you with God is unknowable, therefore, case closed. I would add that just as the Greeks, first Christians, and Egyptians describe the transcendent God as unknowable, God makes himself known through his creation. In other words, what is knowable about God can be found in the things he has produced, that is, us. The divine may be known when we see his reflection in ourself and each other, for example, in the good, truth, and justice found in ourselves. And since we are connected to everything else in the universe then the divine is present in his creation through us.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Even Philo said God laughs at those who do not believe him.
 

docphin5

Member
Even Philo said God laughs at those who do not believe him.
Maybe Philo said that, maybe not, but I doubt God finds humor in our inability to believe in him. I actually empathize with those who find it hard to believe especially at those times when living life becomes difficult to get through.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Maybe Philo said that, maybe not, but I doubt God finds humor in our inability to believe in him. I actually empathize with those who find it hard to believe especially at those times when living life becomes difficult to get through.
Had you actually bothered to take the time to learn, you'd see that you are wrong.


Psa 2:1-5 WEB 1 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let’s break their bonds apart, and cast their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his anger, and terrify them in his wrath:

Psa 37:12-13 WEB 12 The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. 13 The Lord will laugh at him, for he sees that his day is coming.


Psa 59:7-8 WEB 7 Behold, they spew with their mouth. Swords are in their lips, “For”, they say, “who hears us?” 8 But you, Yahweh, laugh at them. You scoff at all the nations.

Believe me, this is not a position you want to be in.

Even Wisdom has something to say about this issue of your refusal to believe God.

Pro 1:20-32 WEB 20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street. She utters her voice in the public squares. 21 She calls at the head of noisy places. At the entrance of the city gates, she utters her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? How long will mockers delight themselves in mockery, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn at my reproof. Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you. I will make known my words to you. 24 Because I have called, and you have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no one has paid attention; 25 but you have ignored all my counsel, and wanted none of my reproof; 26 I also will laugh at your disaster. I will mock when calamity overtakes you, 27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when your disaster comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you. 28 Then they will call on me, but I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me, 29 because they hated knowledge, and didn’t choose the fear of Yahweh. 30 They wanted none of my counsel. They despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore they will eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own schemes. 32 For the backsliding of the simple will kill them. The careless ease of fools will destroy them.

So, choose wisely. Death awaits us all.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
It is a fact that the majority of Christians in the first through third centuries were gnostic Christians (e.g. Valentinians, Marcionites, etc.). Who were all the polemics directed against in the writings of the Christian orthodox "Fathers" (excluding Clement of Alexandria, Tatian, and a few others who extolled the virtues of the gnostics) but Christian gnostics? Christian orthodoxy started writing polemics in the second century against those who came before them, that is, the Gnostics. In addition, many scholars of gnosticism today recognize Paul as an instructor of gnostic teachings. You just don't know that because you limit your sources of information to be from those (Christian orthodoxy) who have an agenda, their own agenda.
Detached from reality?

Why do you people ignore what Jesus told Nicodemus?

Oh wait, your kults have not learned that The Lord Jesus Christ defined Christianity. The Devil is the author of confusion. Why do you fail to put him in your footnotes?
 

docphin5

Member
Had you actually bothered to take the time to learn, you'd see that you are wrong.


Psa 2:1-5 WEB 1 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let’s break their bonds apart, and cast their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his anger, and terrify them in his wrath:

Psa 37:12-13 WEB 12 The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. 13 The Lord will laugh at him, for he sees that his day is coming.


Psa 59:7-8 WEB 7 Behold, they spew with their mouth. Swords are in their lips, “For”, they say, “who hears us?” 8 But you, Yahweh, laugh at them. You scoff at all the nations.

Believe me, this is not a position you want to be in.

Even Wisdom has something to say about this issue of your refusal to believe God.

Pro 1:20-32 WEB 20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street. She utters her voice in the public squares. 21 She calls at the head of noisy places. At the entrance of the city gates, she utters her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? How long will mockers delight themselves in mockery, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn at my reproof. Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you. I will make known my words to you. 24 Because I have called, and you have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no one has paid attention; 25 but you have ignored all my counsel, and wanted none of my reproof; 26 I also will laugh at your disaster. I will mock when calamity overtakes you, 27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when your disaster comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you. 28 Then they will call on me, but I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me, 29 because they hated knowledge, and didn’t choose the fear of Yahweh. 30 They wanted none of my counsel. They despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore they will eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own schemes. 32 For the backsliding of the simple will kill them. The careless ease of fools will destroy them.

So, choose wisely. Death awaits us all.
You and I are on different paths. You follow the wrathful, vengeful, YHWH who laughs at dying people and I follow El. Therefore, I am not worried, but you should be. According your own scriptures YHWH is the Son of El who became the "adversary" of man. I really don't care to interact with you more than this because if you can support someone who laughs at dying people then I got nothing for you.

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of Gods (bênê Ēlîm).
(Psalm 89:6)

And there standeth up an adversary against Israel, and persuadeth David to number Israel, (1 Chronicles 21:1)
And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.' (2 Samuel 24:1)
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Had you actually bothered to take the time to learn, you'd see that you are wrong.


Psa 2:1-5 WEB 1 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let’s break their bonds apart, and cast their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens will laugh. The Lord will have them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his anger, and terrify them in his wrath:

Psa 37:12-13 WEB 12 The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes at him with his teeth. 13 The Lord will laugh at him, for he sees that his day is coming.


Psa 59:7-8 WEB 7 Behold, they spew with their mouth. Swords are in their lips, “For”, they say, “who hears us?” 8 But you, Yahweh, laugh at them. You scoff at all the nations.

Believe me, this is not a position you want to be in.

Even Wisdom has something to say about this issue of your refusal to believe God.

Pro 1:20-32 WEB 20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street. She utters her voice in the public squares. 21 She calls at the head of noisy places. At the entrance of the city gates, she utters her words: 22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? How long will mockers delight themselves in mockery, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn at my reproof. Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you. I will make known my words to you. 24 Because I have called, and you have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no one has paid attention; 25 but you have ignored all my counsel, and wanted none of my reproof; 26 I also will laugh at your disaster. I will mock when calamity overtakes you, 27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when your disaster comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you. 28 Then they will call on me, but I will not answer. They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me, 29 because they hated knowledge, and didn’t choose the fear of Yahweh. 30 They wanted none of my counsel. They despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore they will eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own schemes. 32 For the backsliding of the simple will kill them. The careless ease of fools will destroy them.

So, choose wisely. Death awaits us all.
You are casting pearls before swine.

David asks "why do the heathen rage"?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You and I are on different paths. You follow the wrathful, vengeful, YHWH who laughs at dying people and I follow El. Therefore, I am not worried, but you should be. According your own scriptures YHWH is the Son of El who became the "adversary" of man. I really don't care to interact with you more than this because if you can support someone who laughs at dying people then I got nothing for you.

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of Gods (bênê Ēlîm).
(Psalm 89:6)



And there standeth up an adversary against Israel, and persuadeth David to number Israel, (1 Chronicles 21:1)
And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.' (2 Samuel 24:1)


Rather interesting how you twist that to fit your biases.

Psalms 89:6
AKJV For who in the heaven can be compared to the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened to the LORD?
ASV For who in the skies can be compared unto Jehovah? Who among the sons of the mighty is like unto Jehovah,
BBE For who is there in the heavens in comparison with the Lord? who is like the Lord among the sons of the gods?
Bishops For who is he in the cloudes that shal matche God: [and who] is like vnto God amongst the children gods?
BSB For who in the skies can compare with the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD?
Coverdale For who is he amonge the cloudes, that maye be copared vnto the LORDE?
Darby For who in the heaven can be compared to Jehovah? who among the sons of the mighty shall be likened to Jehovah?
DRC For who in the clouds can be compared to the Lord: or who among the sons of God shall be like to God?
EasyEnglish For who is there in heaven that is like the LORD? Which of the sons of God is like the LORD?
EBR For whom, in the skies, can one compare unto Yahweh? [Or] can one liken unto Yahweh, among the sons of the mighty?
ERV For who in the skies can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty is like unto the LORD,
Geneva For who is equall to the Lorde in the heauen? and who is like the Lord among the sonnes of the gods?
HNV For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of the heavenly beings is like the LORD,
ISV For who in the skies compares to the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the divine beings?
KJ2000 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
KJV For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
KJV For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
LEB For who in the sky is equal to Yahweh? Who is like Yahweh among the sons of God,
LHB For who in the heaven can be compared to the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened to the LORD?
LOGOS For who in the heavens shall be compared to the Lord? And who shall be likened to the Lord among the sons of God?
LXXE (88:6) For who in the heavens shall be compared to the Lord? and who shall be likened to the Lord among the sons of God?
Matthew For who is he amonge the cloudes, that may be compared vnto the Lord. Yea, what is he among the Gods that is like vnto the lord?
MKJV1962 For who in the sky can be ranked [with] the LORD? Who among the mighty is like the LORD?
MLV Because who in the clouds can arrange them to Jehovah? Who among the sons of the mighty is like Jehovah,
NET For who in the skies can compare to the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings,
NHEB For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,
NHEB-AN For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,
NHEB-JE For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who among the sons of God is like Jehovah,
NHEB-JM For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,
NHEB-ME For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,
NHEB-YHWH For who in the skies can be compared to YHWH? Who among the sons of God is like YHWH,
OEBcw For who in the skies may compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD amongst the gods?
OEBus For who in the skies may compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the gods?
RNKJV For who in the heaven can be compared unto YHWH? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto YHWH?
SLT For who in the cloud shall be compared to Jehovah? shall he be likened to Jehovah among the sons of God?
T4T There is no one [RHQ] in heaven who can be compared with you, Yahweh. There are no angels [RHQ] in heaven who are equal to you.
TS2009 For who in the heavens is comparable to יהוה? Who among the sons of the mighty is like יהוה?
UKJV For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
ULB For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh? Who among the sons of the gods is like Yahweh?
VW For who in the clouds can be compared to Jehovah? Who among the sons of the gods can be likened unto Jehovah?
WEB For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh? Who among the sons of the heavenly beings is like Yahweh,
WEBBE For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who amongst the sons of the heavenly beings is like the LORD,
WEBBME For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who amongst the sons of the heavenly beings is like the LORD,
WEBME For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of the heavenly beings is like the LORD,
Webster For who in the heaven can be compared to the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened to the LORD?

WMTH-JM For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,

WMTH-ME For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the sons of God is like the LORD,

Wycliffe For who in the cloudis schal be maad euene to the Lord; schal be lijk God among the sones of God?

Wycliffe-Modern For who in the clouds shall be made even to the Lord; shall be like God among the sons of God?

YLT For who in the sky, Compareth himself to Jehovah? Is like to Jehovah among sons of the mighty?
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Yeah, I know.
Gotta give them the benefit of the doubt, as Paul says....

So they are without excuse.
When you talk like this, to an atheist you are not displaying any particular understanding of their point of view and so come off as not thinking straight about the whole subject. This lowers your credibility. You have to start with something that makes sense to the person you're talking to. This sort of thing doesn't.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
When you talk like this, to an atheist you are not displaying any particular understanding of their point of view and so come off as not thinking straight about the whole subject. This lowers your credibility. You have to start with something that makes sense to the person you're talking to. This sort of thing doesn't.
Considering you have no logic to justify your worldview, except to say that you don't believe, I'm curious if you actually grasp what "any particular understanding of whomever's point of view" actually consists of.

You appear to think I needed you to believe what I say without testing it for yourself in the first place.

You're only adding wrath to where mercy is preferred to be given.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Considering you have no logic to justify your worldview, except to say that you don't believe, I'm curious if you actually grasp what "any particular understanding of whomever's point of view" actually consists of.
Wrong again. What with you misrepresenting people and misunderstanding them you're actually more often wrong than right,

You appear to think I needed you to believe what I say without testing it for yourself in the first place.

You're only adding wrath to where mercy is preferred to be given.
I made a point, you haven't properly responded to it as usual.

You surely must see that to reach an atheist you have to at first make sense from that point of view? Maybe not, I shouldn't pre judge people.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Wrong again. What with you misrepresenting people and misunderstanding them you're actually more often wrong than right,
yet you keep telling me I don't know what you think, without ever telling me what you think, so where do you think this chasing your tail routine is going to take you?

I made a point, you haven't properly responded to it as usual.

You surely must see that to reach an atheist you have to at first make sense from that point of view? Maybe not, I shouldn't pre judge people.
Yet your attempts as making sense of the eternal obviously haven't worked.
So, it seems pretty clear that you have improperly pre-judged God, and as a result, excluded yourself from learning who he is, and what he's offering you.
Just how far do you think this tail-chasing routine of yours is going to take you?





10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young. 12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? 13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has taught Him? 14 With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

How far do you think you're going to succeed at attempting to make sense of someone who holds the cosmos in the span of his hand, and spoke the cosmos into existence?
 

Whatsisface

Active member
How far do you think you're going to succeed at attempting to make sense of someone who holds the cosmos in the span of his hand, and spoke the cosmos into existence?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
 
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