Atheism is a delusion.

Romans one
Why is Romans one good evidence that all know there is a God? Seems very poor evidence in that you haven't shown it to be the word of God. If you can do that, you'd really have something.
(and of course the tendency of humans to "Design their own God" when they don't have details about the real one).
It's because of the details about the supposed real ones that I'm an atheist.
 
You are probably right, I doubt I will get a reasonable reply. But what can I do? This place is mostly as you describe, but I either walk away or I post as best I can, with the very small hope that one day someone might at least respond with reason.
By posting reasonably, you reassure other reasonable posters, including those that may disagree with you, that there is a place for reason even in such a place as this.
 
A random chapter from your holy book is evidence of nothing whatsoever.
Why is Romans one good evidence that all know there is a God? Seems very poor evidence in that you haven't shown it to be the word of God. If you can do that, you'd really have something.
It's because of the details about the supposed real ones that I'm an atheist.

Actually it just explains why you don't know the truth and reality of God. It explains Unbelief and Its Consequences.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and [p]crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:18-32)
 
Strawman. No, you said "No-one comes up with a belief for no reason" and you also said people are "believing for no reason". So, which is it?
Strawman. Where did I say that people are "believing for no reason".

The reason is belief, that's the evidence that something is true, it is because people believe it in reality and it becomes knowledge and evidence. Evidence is still just something believed to be true in reality. And I can prove it: Do you disbelieve evidence or believe it? So, if evidence is believed, then evidence is just a belief in reality aka a justified true belief.
Wrong. People believe many things that are not true.
A colour blind person may believe something is green when in actuality it is red, to everyone else.
That something is evidence that supports a particular claim may be believed. That doesn't mean it does support the actual claim.
The Bible mentions Jerusalem. I believe there is a place called Jerusalem. Does the existence of Jerusalem, and my belief in it, support all the claims made in the Bible? No.
Again, not all beliefs are justified and true.

Actually if you can't refute I said, then you can't have any evidence as to its contrary either.
You may have heard the saying, "lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack". This means that although I may not have proof that something did happen, that doesn't prove it didn't.
The reverse is also true. Lack of evidence that something is false doesn't mean it is true.
You may claim to have an invisible dragon as a pet. That I cannot categorically prove that you don't, doesn't mean that you do.
If you had no evidence that you had an invisible dragon as a pet, my lack of belief in your claim would be warranted.


Nonsense, because we don't know or experience the truth and reality in or with our "physical senses". Rather we know and experience the truth and reality in and with our believing minds.

Animals experience physicality with their physical senses, but human being have a higher form of knowing and experiencing the truth and reality called belief and a believing mind. Unless of course you disbelieve belief has the ability to make the truth and reality known to you, then you just get to think like a monkey thinks.
What is your evidence that human beings have a higher form of knowing and experiencing the truth?
Our physical senses provide immediate experience of the physical world. It is only then that our "believing minds" mediate those perceptions and construct our understanding of "reality".

Beliefs. That's how we experience the truth and reality; it is through belief and our believing minds. That's why belief is necessary and must occur in reality before the truth is known to you. YOU have to have a believing mind, because the default is unbelief and unbelief is incapable of making the truth and reality known to you. Understand?
Wrong. The default is belief. Until we have reason to doubt our senses we accept what they tell us.
You keep saying "in reality". That is where we exist so there is nowhere else that it can occur.

It means you can't say the truth and reality doesn't exist (otherwise) without making a self-refuting argument. As to say that the truth and reality doesn't exist logically entails and requires for your statement to be true; then what you have said that "the truth and reality doesn't exist" must be false. It violates the Law of Non-Contradiction and defeats itself.
So, this means that the logical truth and reality must necessarily exist.
Is reality the physical world we inhabit or the mental map or model, we create of that physical world.
If the later then logical truth and reality only "exist" in the common mental landscape agreed upon by human minds.

The word logic comes from the word 'Logos' and Logos is generally defined as the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the incarnation with truth in Jesus Christ. But more specifically the word 'Logo' can be translated the 'Logical Truth' exists, because to suggest otherwise is self-refuting. So, the 'Logical Truth' existence is self-imposed and self-evident.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logo was God.” (John 1:1)

And the Logos became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

The idea of the Logos has had a pivotal and far-reaching influence upon philosophical and Christian thought. The term has a long history, and the development of the idea it embodies is really the unfolding of the reality of God's Mind being shown to us in the self-evident and necessary nature of the Logical Truth(the Logo). To understand the relationship between God and man has been the goal of most religious philosophy. While diverging views as to the Divine manifestation have been conceived, the Greek word logos has been used with a certain degree of agreement in the forming of God's revelation.
You are rambling and not addressing the question. What do you mean by "logical truth"? That which results from correct logic?

Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real and existent within the logical truth, as opposed to that which is only imaginary, nonexistent or nonactual. The ontological and status of things, and the epistemological status of knowledge that is capable of indicating their existence. Reality includes all that is knowable and excludes all that is unknowable.
Truth is a product of human thinking and is therefore only imaginary, non-existent or nonactual.

Strawman. My argument isn't that physicality requires a human believing mind in order to exist or occur.

Rather my argument is that in reality even physicality necessarily requires a overlying Believing Mind in order to have a way and place to exist and occur, because outside or without a believing mind nothing is knowable in its own existence or occurrence. So, as humans we need and requires a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality known to us.
But the truth and reality still requires a Believing Mind in order to have a way and place to exist and occur and THAT Believing Mind is God's.

I believe that the truth and reality is the result of God's Believing Mind and not ours.
Therefore, the truth and reality is only knowable in and to us as humans when we have a belief in reality in order to make the truth known to us.
Not a strawman as I'm asking you what you think, not making a claim about what you think.
I did not claim that your argument is that physicality requires a human believing mind in order to exist or occur.

My argument that there is a physical universe which we experience through our senses. Those experiences are translated into beliefs from which we construct a mental model that allows us to predict causation and to navigate that physical universe.
I see no need for overlaying a Believing Mind (God) in order to have a way and place to exist.
 
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Where did I say that people are "believing for no reason".
Belief based simply on believing for no reason? Every belief is based upon something. No-one comes up with a belief for no reason.

No actually you started with a strawman.

Wrong. People believe many things that are not true.
A colour blind person may believe something is green when in actuality it is red, to everyone else.
That something is evidence that supports a particular claim may be believed. That doesn't mean it does support the actual claim.
The Bible mentions Jerusalem. I believe there is a place called Jerusalem. Does the existence of Jerusalem, and my belief in it, support all the claims made in the Bible? No.
Again, not all beliefs are justified and true.

Strawman. But my argument isn't based on beliefs in reality aka justified true beliefs and not "false beliefs". Can you see the colored purple bolded words? And these things you are referring to above bolded in the purple, they are "false beliefs" and not beliefs in reality aka justified true beliefs.

You may have heard the saying, "lack of evidence is not evidence of a lack". This means that although I may not have proof that something did happen, that doesn't prove it didn't.

Illogical nonsense. But a "lack of evidence is" "evidence of a lack" of evidence silly. And you admitting that you don't know certainly isn't proof that you are talking about the truth and reality here.

The reverse is also true. Lack of evidence that something is false doesn't mean it is true.

Actually in reality a "Lack of evidence that something is false" may in fact mean "it is true".

You may claim to have an invisible dragon as a pet. That I cannot categorically prove that you don't, doesn't mean that you do.

Strawman. Using hypotheticals that don't exist or hasn't occurred in reality isn't evidence that you know how the truth and reality is known to you, it just shows that you don't know how the truth and reality works and isn't known to you.

If you had no evidence that you had an invisible dragon as a pet, my lack of belief in your claim would be warranted.

But your strawman isn't what I am claiming at all.

My claim is that the truth and reality necessarily existed always and because the truth and reality always necessarily, then there must be some evidence of it always necessarily always existing. So, if the truth and reality necessarily always existed, because to suggest otherwise is self-refuting, then this inability to suggest otherwise and still be telling the truth must be evidence of the truth and reality's necessary existence.
And if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a Believing Mind, then the evidence of the truth and reality's necessary existence must be known in and with a Believing Mind.
 
What do you have by way of evidence, that does mean something to us?
Chuckle!!!! It's not MY JOB to "convince you" of anything. That's up to the Holy Spirit. He's the one who will convict you of your SIN, and of approaching Judgement. Paul simply presented JESUS and Him crucified. That's good enough for me.
 
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence for the claim.

Which is exactly what Christians have done, in the absence of any "real god".
Just because YOU KNOW NOTHING, doesn't mean that Born Again Christians don't.

I've had all the evidence I need for 60 years now (since '1963). God is a PERSONAL relationship. HE drew me to him, convicted me of my SIN, and when I surrendered to Him, He gave me His Holy SPirit to live with MY spirit, cleansed me from SIN, and has been changing me all along. (Romans 8:28,29)
 
Just because YOU KNOW NOTHING, doesn't mean that Born Again Christians don't.

I've had all the evidence I need for 60 years now (since '1963). God is a PERSONAL relationship. HE drew me to him, convicted me of my SIN, and when I surrendered to Him, He gave me His Holy SPirit to live with MY spirit, cleansed me from SIN, and has been changing me all along. (Romans 8:28,29)
You're in for a very disappointing post-death?
 
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