Atheist's inability to know how the truth and reality works.

[Tercon]

You didn't support your charges below either.
You still haven't shown where.

Below this line.
___________________________________________________________________________________________........

You are changing what you said. But that's progress, I guess. Knowledge can "come from" belief in the sense of coming after belief, and that belief can come to "form knowledge" by becoming a component part of that later knowledge. But that doesn't make belief itself "a form of knowledge". If belief is ever able to exist before knowledge, then obviously it can't also be that same knowledge which doesn't yet exist.

______________________________________________________________________________..... And above this line is your strawman.

Strawman. If you consider lying and misrepresenting what I said "progress" and is it just a another strawman.

If knowledge comes from belief, then knowledge must come after belief and not before. So, belief forms knowledge.

But that doesn't make belief itself "a form of knowledge".

What does it mean when your belief doesn't form knowledge? It makes it a "false belief" or unbelief instead. As a requirement of the truth and reality is that belief forms knowledge and if it doesn't, then it isn't a belief in reality, but a unbelief of the truth and reality instead. And there is no middle ground here, because of the Law of Excluded Middle. Since in reality unbelief is incapable of forming any knowledge of the truth.

If belief is ever able to exist before knowledge, then obviously it can't also be that same knowledge which doesn't yet exist.

Can you know the truth without a belief in reality? No.

If belief must come before knowledge, then our belief must inform our knowledge.

So, if belief informs our knowledge, then belief must be a form of knowledge. That's quite biblical as well.

It seems unlikely, but perhaps an analogy may help. With the skill of a sculptor, clay can come to form a statue, right? But does that make the clay a form of the statue? Or would we rather say that the statue is a form of the clay?

Actually minds use clay to form a sculptures, as a mind is necessary in order to form a sculpture.

 

[mikeT]

your unbelief of belief's ability to make the truth and reality known to you as made the truth and reality unknowable to you.

Just as your unbelief of belief's ability to make falsehoods mistakenly known to you as truths - has made the truth and reality unknowable to you.

Kindly stop lecturing others on things you cannot know yourself.

 

[Tercon]

Just as your unbelief of belief's ability to make falsehoods mistakenly known to you as truths - has made the truth and reality unknowable to you.

Kindly stop lecturing others on things you cannot know yourself.

Strawman and projection.

You'd have to be possessed by something evil in order not to know that belief in reality must occur before the truth is known to you.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Below this line... And above this line is your strawman.

Strawman. If you consider lying and misrepresenting what I said "progress" and is it just a another strawman.

The bit you quoted was me explaining my position. It had nothing to do with representing your position, so it could not possibly be a strawman.

If knowledge comes from belief, then knowledge must come after belief and not before. So, belief forms knowledge.

Night comes after day, so day must form night. Does that follow?

Note also that "X forms Y" does not mean the same as "X is a form of Y".

What does it mean when your belief doesn't form knowledge? It makes it a "false belief" or unbelief instead. As a requirement of the truth and reality is that belief forms knowledge and if it doesn't, then it isn't a belief in reality, but a unbelief of the truth and reality instead. And there is no middle ground here, because of the Law of Excluded Middle. Since in reality unbelief is incapable of forming any knowledge of the truth.

Can you know the truth without a belief in reality? No.

If belief must come before knowledge, then our belief must inform our knowledge.

So, if belief informs our knowledge, then belief must be a form of knowledge.

forms =/= is a form of =/= informs =/= is

You've been flipping between all of these phrases as if they mean the same thing. They do not.

Actually minds use clay to form a sculptures, as a mind is necessary in order to form a sculpture.

Sure, but that's NOT what I asked, is it? Try again: With the skill of a sculptor, clay can come to form a statue, right? But does that make the clay a form of the statue? Or would we rather say that the statue is a form of the clay?

 

[mikeT]

belief in reality must occur before the truth is known to you.

Only a mouth-breathing idiot thinks that beliefs are always true.

 

[Tercon]

Only a mouth-breathing idiot thinks that beliefs are always true.

Strawman. If belief is necessary before the truth is known to you, then it is only a deluded mind that thinks that they can know the truth without believing it first.

 

[mikeT]

only a deluded mind that thinks that they can know the truth without believing it first.

A child who mistakenly burns themselves on a hot object for the first time - knows the object is hot before he/she believes it's hot. Physical perception is not belief, but it's still a pathway to knowledge before belief.

This has been explained to you before, so the deluded mind is yours.

ps. this is YET ANOTHER REFUTATION of your arguments here. Bookmark it, and learn from your mistakes.

 

[Tercon]

A child who mistakenly burns themselves on a hot object for the first time - knows the object is hot before he/she believes it's hot. Physical perception is not belief, but it's still a pathway to knowledge before belief.

This has been explained to you before, so the deluded mind is yours.

ps. this is YET ANOTHER REFUTATION of your arguments here. Bookmark it, and learn from your mistakes.

Bookmark this refutation to the incompetence of a unbelieving mind.

And yet another strawman and projection of your insidious unbelieving mind.

What I done with my children is I told them while they were very young that things that were made to get hot like a stove ("a hot object") etc. would burn them if they touched it. So, my children believed me and never got burned by "a hot object" like a stove, because they believed and trusted me when I told them about hot and cold objects. That's the power of belief and a believing mind; it is capable of making the truth and reality known to even a very young child. And the reason my children never had to experience a burn from "a hot object" is because they believed their old Dad and didn't have to experience such harm.
Didn't you know about this most wonderful of things in how and why the truth is known to us; in that we can just tell our children and others of things that could harm them and just because we told them and they believed us; then they don't have to experience potential harm? Isn't that wonderful?

And wouldn't you say that someone who doesn't know this truth and can't pass on such wisdom to their own child or others would show that they are deluded and made incompetent by their own uninformed unbelieving mind?

 

[mikeT]

What I done with my children is [...]

From these seven words, I'm certain you have no children - and that whatever your unbelieving mind produces about "belief" and "truth" can safely be discarded.

You have no access to truth or reality.

 

[Tercon]

From these seven words, I'm certain you have no children - and that whatever your unbelieving mind produces about "belief" and "truth" can safely be discarded.

You have no access to truth or reality.

That's is as much as you know about the truth and reality silly, because I have multiple children.

And anyone who doesn't know enough to show their own children of things they know to be true, and in those children believing what their parent has told them; this prevents them from falling victim to "a hot object"; is at best an incompetent parent and chooses to wallow in their own incompetence's; rather than teaching their children the difference between right and wrong.

Why would anyone listen to someone who doesn't even know how to teach their own children to know the truth.

 

[Tiburon]

Sure I do. And you are conflating sufficient and insufficient, as if your claim is that belief is insufficient to make the truth and reality known to you, then that is insufficiency and not sufficiency.
I believe that a belief in reality is sufficient and fully capable to make the truth and reality known to me. And you disbelieve that belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to you, while fully knowing at the same time that your belief is necessary and must occur in reality before the truth is known to you. But I am quite certain that your unbelief (atheism) is insufficient to make the truth known to you.


Because knowledge of the truth and reality is impossible without first believing it exists and occurs. Knowledge comes after belief and not before or in other words belief is a form of knowledge.

As far as conditional logic goes, you do not.
Knowledge of the truth and reality is impossible without first perceiving it.

 

[Tercon]

As far as conditional logic goes, you do not.
Knowledge of the truth and reality is impossible without first perceiving it.

No, because I know about logic, the truth, consciousness, existence, morality and belief not because of any perception, but rather I know about logic, the truth, consciousness, existence, morality and belief because I believe they exist in reality. Our physical senses are meaning and directionless without consciousness to guide it and human consciousness is completely driven by what we believe.

 

[Tetsugaku]

No, because I know about logic...

Do you though? For instance, can you type up a truth table for material implication? I mean, believing something exists isn't the same as knowing anything substantial about it.

 

[Tiburon]

No, because I know about logic, the truth, consciousness, existence, morality and belief not because of any perception, but rather I know about logic, the truth, consciousness, existence, morality and belief because I believe they exist in reality. Our physical senses are meaning and directionless without consciousness to guide it and human consciousness is completely driven by what we believe.

You think you do, but you really don't show that to be the case.
Without perception we have nothing to think about.

 

[Tercon]

Do you though? For instance, can you type up a truth table for material implication?

If you want a truth table you are welcomed to use my arguments to do so.

Well, if it has been shown that the truth and reality absolutely exists, because no-one can show otherwise. And it has also been shown that the only way and place that the truth, reality and physicality itself can be known to exist and occur is in and with a Believing Mind. And Quantum Mechanics models bear out this reality. Then it has been shown not only what God is, but also in how and why His truth and reality is known to us.
So, I believe the above truth is not only believing in something we all know exists and occurs (the truth and reality), but it is impossible to even suggest otherwise without refuting yourself is substantial in identifying in what and how God is known to us.
And also in showing how and why it is ONLY in and with a Believing Mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur; this is a quite substantial truth about how God is absolutely known to exist. He is known in and with the only means by which all truth and reality is known to exist and occur and that is in and with a Believing Mind.

I mean, believing something exists isn't the same as knowing anything substantial about it.

Well, in knowing in what He absolutely exists is in the truth and reality and that He too has a Believing Mind, this is represented and denoted by the absolute existence of the truth and reality. And also in knowing in how and why He absolutely is known to exist and occur is in and with the same way and place He too is known the exist and occur, with all truth and reality and in and with His Believing Mind; He too is known to us in and with a believing mind is quite substantial.

P1: The truth and reality absolutely exists and occurs, because to suggest otherwise is self-refuting.
P2: A believing mind is the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur.
Conclusion: The truth and reality must exist and occur in a Absolute Believing Mind.

You think you do, but you really don't show that to be the case.

I do in fact do.

Without perception we have nothing to think about.

Are you conflating perception and belief?

Perception is dead in its ability to cause direction and meaning to anything, as it is only in believing what is being perceived that gives it meaning and direction in life.

And without belief and a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable to you.

 

[Tetsugaku]

If you want a truth table you are welcomed to use my arguments to do so.

So no, you don't have even a beginner's introductory understanding of logic. Glad we could clear that up.

 

[Tercon]

So no, you don't have even a beginner's introductory understanding of logic. Glad we could clear that up.

No, I just have no time to appease a unbeliever in their unbelief regards to the truth, because the truth is unavailable to you in your unbelief. But if you would like to prove me wrong, then by all means feel free to do so by using a logic table. But of course you can't, proving why you won't.

 

[Algor]

No, I just have no time to appease a unbeliever in their unbelief regards to the truth, because the truth is unavailable to you in your unbelief.

This is obviously false. You post incredibly repetitive material in an unremitting stream, that has convinced no one, in the history of this board, so far as I am aware, that your views are valid or even coherent. You clog up the board with mountains of posts, old threads, redundant posts on unbelief, belief, believing minds blah blah blah. You certainly have the time to put effort into discussion.

 

[Tercon]

This is obviously false. You post incredibly repetitive material in an unremitting stream, that has convinced no one, in the history of this board, so far as I am aware, that your views are valid or even coherent. You clog up the board with mountains of posts, old threads, redundant posts on unbelief, belief, believing minds blah blah blah. You certainly have the time to put effort into discussion.

Actually none of that is true, because if it were; you'd be able to refute my OPs. But whereas you have not and can't, then I am quite confident in the validity of their truthfulness. And the reason I know this to be true is because I believe it to be so, as belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to whoever believes it. And unknown to all unbelievers.
So, why do you think I have to do a "dog and pony show" for you, when it wouldn't make a lick of difference to you in penetrating the ignorance your own unbelief to begin with?
Remember, belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you and you are in unbelief. So, your knowledge of the truth and reality is plagued by your own unbelief.

And you would have been better off in just typing three lines of "blah blah blah", rather than just three times "blah blah blah", because your "blah blah blah" was closer to the truth and reality than the rest of what you wrote.

And FYI, these OPs aren't for you, but they are for sharpening their truthfulness. And I Thank You for your time in allowing me to do so.

 

[Algor]

Actually none of that is true, because if it were; you'd be able to refute my OPs. But whereas you have not and can't, then I am quite confident in the validity of their truthfulness. And the reason I know this to be true is because I believe it to be so, as belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to whoever believes it. And unknown to all unbelievers.
So, why do you think I have to do a "dog and pony show" for you, when it wouldn't make a lick of difference to you in penetrating the ignorance your own unbelief to begin with?
Remember, belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you and you are in unbelief. So, your knowledge of the truth and reality is plagued by your own unbelief.

And you would have been better off in just typing three lines of "blah blah blah", rather than just three times "blah blah blah", because your "blah blah blah" was closer to the truth and reality than the rest of what you wrote.

And FYI, these OPs aren't for you, but they are for sharpening their truthfulness. And I Thank You for your time in allowing me to do so.

None of it is true?

Can you point to a single person that you have convinced of your views?



Note : "And the reason I know this to be true is because I believe it to be so...' ....lol