Atonement extended to All

TomFL

Well-known member
If you're going to quote Luther, quote Luther, not propagandists quoting Luther. Luther said it, but your reference is partly bogus.

Rather than directly citing Luther, Father O'Hare cites "Amic. Discussion 1, 127." This refers to Jean François Marie Trévern, An Amicable Discussion on the Church of England and on the Reformation in General vol. 1. Various editions of this nineteenth century text are available online. I've had a copy of this book for over a decade. When it arrived all those years ago, I recall thumbing through it attempting to check O'Hare's references. I was never able to locate this O'Hare-cited Luther quote in An Amicable Discussion. Now with so many old books available on-line, I searched through a number of editions of An Amicable Discussion, and still could not find this quote as cited by O'Hare.
It's on sale at Amazon and free on the internet archive
 
Does the meaning of the word atonement include the appeasement of the wrath of God?
Not! It does not. Also, God is not saving the old man dead in trespasses and sins. "The soul that sins shall die'. God did not change his law. The old Adam is dead with Christ in his death!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

I ask then who Is God saving?


2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Is God saving the old man or the new spiritual creation? :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1Thess521 said:
Does the meaning of the word atonement include the appeasement of the wrath of God?


Not! It does not. Also, God is not saving the old man dead in trespasses and sins. "The soul that sins shall die'. God did not change his law. The old Adam is dead with Christ in his death!

The Greek word translated atonement

2643 καταλλαγή [katallage /kat·al·lag·ay/] n f. From 2644; TDNT 1:258; TDNTA 40; GK 2903; Four occurrences; AV translates as “reconciliation” twice, “atonement” once, and “reconciling” once. 1 exchange. 1A of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values. 2 adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour. 2A in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
 

Tertiumquid

Member
It's on sale at Amazon and free on the internet archive
...and exactly why would you feel the need to post this information since my above comment indicates I own the book and I also posted a link to multiple copies of the free versions online?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
...and exactly why would you feel the need to post this information since my above comment indicates I own the book and I also posted a link to multiple copies of the free versions online?
I guess I did not see see you link

Is that a problem for you ?
 

John t

Active member
So Christ doesn't have a "people", whom He WILL save?
He just waits, and those who believe and are saved, they "become" his people?

Seriously?!

That's like saying a Shepherd just wanders around in the field, and whichever sheep decide they like that Shepherd, they BECOME his sheep.

Sorry, but that's NOT how it works.
Too often, some posters "forget these verses" in both testaments

Romans 9:
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”​
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​
Malachi 1:
2“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob​
3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”​
Hebrews 12:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;​
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.​
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.​
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Crazy aint it ! The Shepherd I know goes I find HIS Sheep Lk 15:3-6
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
His sheep not the sheep of another

Those who have never heard or followed the shepherd are not his sheep
Those who have always followed another voice are not his sheep

John 10:1–5 (KJV 1900)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


John 10:7–14 (KJV 1900)
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Speaking of backwards--this is the order of Christ's testimony concerning His sheep:

John 10:27-28----King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1) His sheep hear His voice
2) They follow Him
3) He gives unto them eternal life

That defies Reformed theology, IMO.

If you think that, then that indicates that YOU are the one who doesn't understand "Reformed theology".

Funny how you keep claiming, "that defies Reformed theology", but you never actually demonstrate HOW.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Reformed Theology misapplies this verse

The sheep here were not some unconditionally elected individuals but those who were God's sheep -i.e. followers of him; who were to be transferred over to the son

Your statement is fallacious, in particular it is a "false dichotomy".

Yes, the sheep are God's sheep, those who followers of him.

But they were followers of Him BECAUSE they were "unconditionally elected".

It's not a case of "either/or", it's a case of "both/and".

You are teaching the heretical doctrine of "salvation by works".
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The bible is supposed to form your theology not the other way around

You should take your own advice, then...

I was a Calvinism-hating Arminian, until the BIBLE (and the Holy Spirit) convinced me that "Reformed Theology" was true.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you think that, then that indicates that YOU are the one who doesn't understand "Reformed theology".

Funny how you keep claiming, "that defies Reformed theology", but you never actually demonstrate HOW.
Seems pretty clear those opposed to Christ/God are not the sheep

According to John

his sheep know him, hear his voice and follow him

John 10:3–14 —KJV
“To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Seems pretty clear those opposed to Christ/God are not the sheep

According to John

his sheep know him, hear his voice and follow him

John 10:3–14 —KJV
“To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

It seems to me that you are misinterpreting the passage.
Sorry, I'm not convinced.
Your problem is that you're not coming to Scripture looking for what it actually SAYS, but you're coming to it from the agenda of "How can I use this to try to attack Calvinism?"
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No actually his did not, Emphasis on a particular group does not make one group equate to another

Well, since you've made this empty claim at least ten times, and you've been wrong every single time, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

1 Timothy 4:10–11 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Who is the Saviour of all men] Who has provided salvation for the whole human race, and has freely offered it to them in his word and by his Spirit.
Specially of those that believe.] What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world, and tasted death for every man. As all have been purchased by his blood, so all may believe; and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault


Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes, vol. 6, New Edition. (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 603.

I'm not sure why you think quoting a heretical Wesleyan instead of the Bible, is going to change my mind.

This is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority".
ANYONE can quote a "scholar" who supports their view.
Would you be convinced if I quoted Calvin or Spurgeon or Gill?
Obviously not. So quoting anyone (such as Clarke) is a waste of time that runs away from the issue.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well, since you've made this empty claim at least ten times, and you've been wrong every single time, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Thats rather funny as you have done nothing at all to prove or disprove anything

Bald denials and claims are all you have offered
I'm not sure why you think quoting a heretical Wesleyan instead of the Bible, is going to change my mind.

This is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority".
ANYONE can quote a "scholar" who supports their view.
Would you be convinced if I quoted Calvin or Spurgeon or Gill?
Obviously not. So quoting anyone (such as Clarke) is a waste of time that runs away from the issue.

That is also funny for you appeals to an extremely minor dource of authority - yourself

If you quoted Calvin here I would be rather amused

He means that the kindness of God extends to all men. And if there is no man who does not feel the goodness of God towards him, and who is not a partaker of it, how much more shall it be experienced by the godly, who hope in him? Will he not take peculiar care in them? Will he not more freely pour out his bounty on them? In a word, will he not, in every respect, keep them safe to the end?

very amused



i
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Thats rather funny as you have done nothing at all to prove or disprove anything

Not my job.

YOU are the one who has issues with Calvinism.
So YOU are the one with the "burden of proof" to try to "prove" it wrong.

And so far you have failed miserably.
So maybe you should take that chip off your shoulder?

That is also funny for you appeals to an extremely minor dource of authority - yourself

So basically you're saying that no matter what I said, you would reject it.
More proof that trying to have a theological discussion with you is a waste of time.
Thank you for the admission.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Not my job.

YOU are the one who has issues with Calvinism.
So YOU are the one with the "burden of proof" to try to "prove" it wrong.

And so far you have failed miserably.
So maybe you should take that chip off your shoulder?



So basically you're saying that no matter what I said, you would reject it.
More proof that trying to have a theological discussion with you is a waste of time.
Thank you for the admission.
Perhaps you should read again

You claimed an appeal to authority was fallacious

You however made doctrinal statement based upon your own unsupported claims thus presenting yourself as an authority

Your therefore are appealing to the fallacy of authority

thus self negating your own claim

Bottom-line you are unable to biblically defend your views from the bible and offer nothing but the dogmatism of your theology
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Post to the issue, posters. do not retaliate nor insult others
Perhaps you should read again

EDIT Bickering/insulting

You claimed an appeal to authority was fallacious

You however made doctrinal statement based upon your own unsupported claims thus presenting yourself as an authority

EDIT Bickering/insulting.
I NEVER presented myself as an "authority".

Your therefore are appealing to the fallacy of authority

thus self negating your own claim

<sigh>

EDIT Bickering/insulting
If I said that "2 + 2 = 4", you'd argue against me.

Bottom-line you are unable to biblically defend your views from the bible and offer nothing but the dogmatism of your theology

I have no REASON to have to "defend [my] views".
My views need no "defending".
They are from God.
 
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