Atonement limited or general?

Howie said:
Christ is saving His people, ONLY, from their sins (Mt 1:21).

That addresses it.
Click to expand...

I'm a teacher, and many people have told me I have great patience.
But I have to say that YOU are the one with great patience.
God bless you, brother!
 
Howie said:
Christ is saving His people, ONLY, from their sins (Mt 1:21).

That addresses it.
Click to expand...
Sorry no it does not

If Christ died for all then he had to for his people

Hello

BTW it is a pretty poor handling of scripture to imagine you can refute multiple verses with one verse

Christ died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


you never address it
 
Carbon said:
I’ll go with a particular atonement.

John 10:24-29
So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Click to expand...
Yes; but, it's a bit earlier in the chapter.

John 10:11-16 (WEB)
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who doesn’t own the sheep, sees the wolf coming, leaves the sheep, and flees. The wolf snatches the sheep, and scatters them.
13 The hired hand flees because he is a hired hand, and doesn’t care for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I’m known by my own;
15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.
 
fltom said:
Sorry no it does not

If Christ died for all then he had to for his people

Hello

BTW it is a pretty poor handling of scripture to imagine you can refute multiple verses with one verse

Christ died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


you never address it
Click to expand...
I just addressed it with Mt 1:21, Tom.

Last word is yours.
 
Howie said:
I just addressed it with Mt 1:21, Tom.

Last word is yours.
Click to expand...
No you did not

If Christ died for all then he had to for his people

Hello

BTW it is a pretty poor handling of scripture to imagine you can refute multiple verses with one verse

Christ died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


you never address it
 
Howie said:
Posting scripture is easy.
Click to expand...
And Believing it should be easy for a Christian


Christ died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
fltom said:
And Believing it should be easy for a Christian.
Click to expand...
But you don't, Tom, you don't believe you haven't a free will, even though scripture says you don't, but you are a slave to sin or righteousness.

Rom 6:20-22 .. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
 
eternomade said:
They say Jesus atoned for all sins of all but its up to man to accept this. This heretical doctrine is leading many souls to hell. It's vile and replaces the work of Christ with man.
Click to expand...
It seems so.
It’s interesting some won’t stand on what they believe because they have a fear of man. To much compromising, a sign of the time.
 
Howie said:
But you don't, Tom, you don't believe you haven't a free will, even though scripture says you don't, but you are a slave to sin or righteousness.

Rom 6:20-22 .. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Click to expand...
I think this is the perfect Passage to speak on the Free Will argument...

Neither side of the Coin is as Free as they think they are...
 
ReverendRV said:
I think this is the perfect Passage to speak on the Free Will argument...

Neither side of the Coin is as Free as they think they are...
Click to expand...
But according to some, when Jesus came just to suffer and be crucified for no one in particular it set all the slaves of sin free.
Now no one is a slave to sin any longer. And they can express their free will in the way they can now see as right, if they so choose to.
Free to choose, some just make better choices than others. ?
 
Carbon said:
But according to some, when Jesus came just to suffer and be crucified for no one in particular it set all the slaves of sin free.
Now no one is a slave to sin any longer. And they can express their free will in the way they can now see as right, if they so choose to.
Free to choose, some just make better choices than others. ?
Click to expand...
I don't read everybody, so I don't know who says that...
 
ReverendRV said:
I think this is the perfect Passage to speak on the Free Will argument...

Neither side of the Coin is as Free as they think they are...
Click to expand...
Yes.

While man is a volitional creature, he is not free to choose whatever he will. Rather, God has put constraints on the will of man. That is clearly seen in the Law.

Were man truly free, there would be no law, and no consequence for not obeying it.
 
Howie said:
But you don't, Tom, you don't believe you haven't a free will, even though scripture says you don't, but you are a slave to sin or righteousness.

Rom 6:20-22 .. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Click to expand...
First you ignore these which should be believed

And Believing it should be easy for a Christian


Christ died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

second that verse does not say what you need

No one holds to an absolute free will rather it is held by all to be limited by their nature

you argue against an absolute free will which no one holds to

Being unable to avoid sin does not mean there is no sin you cannot avoid

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot confess your sin

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot believe the gospel

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot accept God initiative to redeem you
 
ReverendRV said:
I think this is the perfect Passage to speak on the Free Will argument...

Neither side of the Coin is as Free as they think they are...
Click to expand...
and yet

Being unable to avoid sin does not mean there is no sin you cannot avoid

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot confess your sin

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot believe the gospel

being unable to avoid sin does not mean you cannot accept God initiative to redeem you

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism



Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate origin of decisions.



Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.



The principle of alternative possibilities (AP)

At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain

from choosing is genuinely available.



The reality of will-setting moments

A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.



The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity

The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the freedom of integrity).
 
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