Atonement on the cross Doctrine is a destructive error?

Buzzard

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The punctuation is added by translators, seeing the original text, did not have any.



Yours in Christ, Michael
What ????
Oh come on there SDA;
is that the best you can do
"the Translators made a mistake " -----

So; Oh Wise One;
what other aahhhh "Mistakes" did the translators make ???

so maybe you can inform us where, if any,
the comma should be placed

SDA;
God forgive you; for you know not what you do
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Noting What happen to Eve and the serpent:
Have you ever considered that to believe who is GOD, is a free will choice offered by GOD, in the presence of satan's lies ???
You have not answered my question. Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God or do you believe he is a created being?
"Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God ...", Did Jesus ever say exactly that ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
What ????
Oh come on there SDA;
is that the best you can do
"the Translators made a mistake " -----
So; Oh Wise One;
what other aahhhh "Mistakes" did the translators make ???
so maybe you can inform us where, if any,
the comma should be placed
SDA;
God forgive you; for you know not what you do
Where is "paradise" then ???
Your dodge of the question is noted.

You will most likely let @Common Tater, deal with my questions. Please observe and note for yourself.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Buzzard said:
What ????
Oh come on there SDA;
is that the best you can do
"the Translators made a mistake " -----
So; Oh Wise One;
what other aahhhh "Mistakes" did the translators make ???
so maybe you can inform us where, if any,
the comma should be placed
SDA;
God forgive you; for you know not what you do
SDAchristian said:
Where is "paradise" then ???
Your dodge of the question is noted.

You will most likely let @Common Tater, deal with my questions. Please observe and note for yourself.

Yours in Christ, Michael

Oh, SDA;
I did not dodge your question;
you asked Common Tator; not me
he isn't like you and other SDA's that are never Willing nor Able to give an answer
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
Proverbs 9:1
Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Ecc.10:1
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour:
so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.

2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

SDA;
now that we are on the subject / Advent teaching of the state of the dead;
what did Christ tell the Malefactor on the cross

Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 

Common Tater

Active member
AV Lk 20:27-38 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Is this the story, that will prove your point ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
This story helps prove my point. I've heard Adventist pastors such a Stephen Bohr try and make the case that Jesus used the case of people's souls existing after death (although he supposedly did not believe it himself according to Bohr) to meet the Pharisees where they were, because they did believe in souls existing after physical death. Paul, as well as Josephus, tells us that the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, souls existing after death, or the resurrection. Here, the Sadducees, being clever, are using the resurrection to present a case that they think shows the foolishness of such an idea. Jesus does not meet them where they are, he does not deny the resurrection, he does not lie to them to present a truth.
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Noting What happen to Eve and the serpent:
Have you ever considered that to believe who is GOD, is a free will choice offered by GOD, in the presence of satan's lies ???

"Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God ...", Did Jesus ever say exactly that ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Free will is not carte blanche to create a god that suits your needs and ideas.

And when did Jesus ever exactly say that he was a created being?

I think your answering my question with your question '"Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God...", Did Jesus ever say exactly that' has let me know what you believe. You are an Arian, one who believes that the Son was a created being.
 

JonHawk

Active member
Prologue:
AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

AV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You realize, that is your interpretation from your opinion ???
It was an enduring promise and has nothing to do with the opinion of man.
Let us try to not make Jesus a liar, from our opinion to the evidence available.
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

AV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You realize, that is your interpretation from your opinion ???

Let us try to not make Jesus a liar, from our opinion to the evidence available.

The punctuation is added by translators, seeing the original text, did not have any.

Where is "paradise" then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Where did the Jews believe Sheol, the realm of the dead to be? That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.

By the way, Jesus says "Verily I say unto thee" over 70 times in the Gospels and then follows it with a statement. Why would this statement alone be unique? Every major translation understands this and puts that comma where it should be. Also, spaces between words are added by tranlators, numbers for the texts are added by translators, in the Old Testament vowels are added by translators.
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Noting What happen to Eve and the serpent:
Have you ever considered that to believe who is GOD, is a free will choice offered by GOD, in the presence of satan's lies ???

"Do you believe that the Son is Eternal God ...", Did Jesus ever say exactly that ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Then Moses asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?”

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.h This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:13-14 NASB


Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!h
At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple area. John 8:57-59 NASB

They wanted to stone him because he had just claimed to be GOD, Eternal God.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
SDA posts:
AV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

then
asks a question
ie: Where is "paradise" then ???

The answer to that question is found in Revelation Ch 2, Ch 22 and Genesis Ch 2
and the correct understanding of
AV Lk 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day
:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
which was laid at his gate, full of sores
,


and also the words of Christ to the Malefactor
when he asked
"Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Now let me ask a question
When, according to the Scriptures will "Christ come into his Kingdom"
 
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pythons

Active member
This story helps prove my point. I've heard Adventist pastors such a Stephen Bohr try and make the case that Jesus used the case of people's souls existing after death (although he supposedly did not believe it himself according to Bohr) to meet the Pharisees where they were, because they did believe in souls existing after physical death. Paul, as well as Josephus, tells us that the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, souls existing after death, or the resurrection. Here, the Sadducees, being clever, are using the resurrection to present a case that they think shows the foolishness of such an idea. Jesus does not meet them where they are, he does not deny the resurrection, he does not lie to them to present a truth.

This sounds much like the concept of the lessor light pointing to the greater light LOL!
...Jesus spins a theologically bankrupt & false teaching in order to help a religious group.
...OUT OF THEIR ERRORS!

Thereby,

Confirming and sledge hammer establishing the Pharisees (& Paul's) error in the immortality of the soul!

Wow, that's a win win for everyone? NOT!

Common Tater, you need an award for drawing this out into the open. This one is going into my false teaching weapons chest

LOL!
 

Common Tater

Active member
Where did the Jews believe Sheol, the realm of the dead to be? That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.

By the way, Jesus says "Verily I say unto thee" over 70 times in the Gospels and then follows it with a statement. Why would this statement alone be unique? Every major translation understands this and puts that comma where it should be. Also, spaces between words are added by tranlators, numbers for the texts are added by translators, in the Old Testament vowels are added by translators.
Here is a link with just 25 "Veril, I say unto you" verses. How many of these have the comma in the wrong place?

 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Verily, verily" means most assuredly or very truly. It connotes a strong affirmation. It is used to convey a strong affirmation of something

Many times Christ uses
"Truly, I say ............."
sometimes just "Verily I say unto thee"
so why, at times, does Christ say
"Verily, verily, I say unto you,
using the word "Verily" twice

any Ideas
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Where did the Jews believe Sheol, the realm of the dead to be? That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.
I did not ask what the Jews believe about paradise. The people who had Jesus crucified by the Romans' authority.

"That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.", That needs to be confirmed with scripture, Please ???

Using that line of verbal logic, Are you qualifying the Rich Man and Lazarus, as literally and spiritually true then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
I did not ask what the Jews believe about paradise. The people who had Jesus crucified by the Romans' authority.

"That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.", That needs to be confirmed with scripture, Please ???

Using that line of verbal logic, Are you qualifying the Rich Man and Lazarus, as literally and spiritually true then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Are you asking for a physical location? Think about the logic of that. We are talking about spiritual entities.

I'd say that Dives and Lazarus is spiritually true. I'm not saying it necessarily actually occurred.

I'd also suggest that you might have a better understanding of Scripture if you try and read it thru the eyes of those to whom it was initially written. Another thing. "I did not ask what the Jews believe about paradise. The people who had Jesus crucified by the Romans' authority." Are you by any chance anti-semitic?

By the way, do you find Jesus worthy of worship?
 
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Buzzard

Well-known member
I'd also suggest that you might have a better understanding of Scripture if you try and read it thru the eyes of those to whom it was initially written. Another thing. "I did not ask what the Jews believe about paradise. The people who had Jesus crucified by the Romans' authority." Are you by any chance anti-semitic?
Common Tater;
it matters not what the Jews believed and taught;
as many groups, sects, divisions in and around the Holy Lands in the days of Christ;
they were like the """"Church""" today
"many voices crying to be heard"

It matters what Moses, the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles said
all others are merely voicing their opinions

Common Tater said:
#2: "thru the eyes of those to whom it was initially written. '

Paul; the Apostle Born out of Time" would disagree;
he said that Scripture was written for that generation to come

1Cor. 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples:
and they are written for our admonition,
upon whom the ends of the world are come.

and also specifically for the Corinthians
the Chosen Bride

2Cor.11:1
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Christ has only One (1) Bride, not many

 

Pitbull

New Member
I did not ask what the Jews believe about paradise. The people who had Jesus crucified by the Romans' authority.

"That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.", That needs to be confirmed with scripture, Please ???

Using that line of verbal logic, Are you qualifying the Rich Man and Lazarus, as literally and spiritually true then ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Wow, You want things to be confirmed by Scripture but you don't what to know what the "Jews" believed on a subject. Here you go, this is only part of scripture I know that.s attributed to someone other than a Hebrew(Jew).

Dan 4

4 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:

5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.

6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.

7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,

9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.

20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;

21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:

22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:

25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.

27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.

29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


All the rest of Scripture involves stuff the Hebrews(Jews) believed.
 

JonHawk

Active member
and you of all posters have proof they didn't
?????

if so do as Peter says
be always ready and """ABLE""" to give an answer from the Scriptures
(Not EGW nor the McNuttleys of the SDA)

Scripture proof there Michael;
to not give an Answer is -----
those that deny him in front of men
he will deny to the Angels
But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts; 1 Peter 3:15

For you who have been chosen for salvation according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [through faith in Jesus Christ] 1 Peter 1:2 (Believe in Jesus Christ and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit).
 
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