Atonement on the cross Doctrine is a destructive error?

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
By the way, do you find Jesus worthy of worship?
I find this a very ironic question.

AV Lk 6:44-46 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Does worship include obedience to Jesus' authority ???

AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Does worship included repeating Jesus' testimony ???

AV 1C 15:45 And so it is written, The{G3588 ho, the definite article} first man{G444 anthropos} Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Spiritual iterations abound.
AV Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The{G3588 ho, the definite article} sabbath was made for {G3588 ho, the definite article, in the Greek text}man{G444 anthropos}, and not man for the sabbath:

Is Jesus' testimony for all "{G3588 ho, the definite article, in the Greek text}man{G444 anthropos}" ???

What spiritual conclusions can be drawn, if any "man" refuses Jesus' testimony as repeatable Truth ???

AV 1C 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

"By the way, do you find Jesus worthy of worship?", Yes, by obedience, by testimony and by following Jesus' example, in unity to Jesus' body.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I find this a very ironic question.

AV Lk 6:44-46 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Does worship include obedience to Jesus' authority ???

AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Does worship included repeating Jesus' testimony ???

AV 1C 15:45 And so it is written, The{G3588 ho, the definite article} first man{G444 anthropos} Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Spiritual iterations abound.
AV Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The{G3588 ho, the definite article} sabbath was made for {G3588 ho, the definite article, in the Greek text}man{G444 anthropos}, and not man for the sabbath:

Is Jesus' testimony for all "{G3588 ho, the definite article, in the Greek text}man{G444 anthropos}" ???

What spiritual conclusions can be drawn, if any "man" refuses Jesus' testimony as repeatable Truth ???

AV 1C 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

"By the way, do you find Jesus worthy of worship?", Yes, by obedience, by testimony and by following Jesus' example, in unity to Jesus' body.

Yours in Christ, Michael
The question wasn't meant to be ironic.

I just wondered if you had any qualms about worshipping a created being.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
The question wasn't meant to be ironic.
I just wondered if you had any qualms about worshipping a created being.
AV Jn 1:14 And the Word was made{G1096 ginomai} flesh, and dwelt{G4637 skenoo} among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You never distinguished between "the Word" and "made{G1096 ginomai} flesh"[which {G4637 skenoo}], so I did not answer. You still have State of the Dead issues to resolve, but another post("paradise") that needs a rebuttal.

Check Question: Would you worship a tent in type then ??? Or a body, in anti-type ???

So why did GOD hide Moses' body then ???

AV Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus never affirmed divinity in Jesus' flesh. But I will answer that post of yours later.

AV 1C 11:28-29 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

As a former SDA, I expected more from you.

AV Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

"I just wondered if you had any qualms about worshipping a created being.", Is this anything like following the words of a Pope, over the words of GOD then ??? There are many issues you have chosen to ignore.

9T 11.2 said:
The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Please realize, when we run out of time, everything on this old earth, will be against GOD, and against GOD's people going to heaven.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
AV Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

"I just wondered if you had any qualms about worshipping a created being.", Is this anything like following the words of a Pope, over the words of GOD then ??? There are many issues you have chosen to ignore.


Yours in Christ, Michael
I haven't followed the words of the Pope. The Adventist claim that it was the Pope who changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is simply not true. The Roman Catholic church's claim that the Pope changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is simply not true either. Christians were meeting together on Sunday to worship and break bread long before there was a Roman Catholic church. But most importantly, the Sabbath was the sign of the siniatic covenant between God and the Children of Israel. I'm not Jewish and I've never been a party to that covenant. Read Acts 15 for goodness sake.

I'm following the words of God and I'm following the inspired decision by the Apostles that was given at the Council of Jerusalem.

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.



James’s Judgment

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23and they sent this letter by them,

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24“Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27“Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. 33After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. 34[But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.] 35But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord.

In addition to the Arian heresy, you are also partial to the Judaizing jeresy as well.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Pr 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour [is] a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

AV Ro 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Here is Paul's version. Warning the self deceived of GOD's future judgments is not a lie.

You expressed my beliefs in your own free will from GOD, with your loving and truthful words of these. So we can understand each other's position properly.
In addition to the Arian heresy, ...
Please detail each point of "the Arian heresy", that your opinion thinks, I am guilty of ???
..., you are also partial to the Judaizing jeresy as well.
Please detail each point of "the Judaizing jeresy"/"heresy", that your opinion thinks, I am guilty of ???

If this is a big list in your mind, then start with the biggest one first from each category, quoting Cut-N-Paste evidence to support your reasoning.

I made this as open as possible for you to express your evidence(s) to your reasons of your opinion.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Where did the Jews believe Sheol, the realm of the dead to be? That is where paradise, Abraham's Busom was.
You affirm this as if it is your truth for yourself. Defend the apologetics of it, too ???

AV Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell{G86 haides}, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
AV Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell{G86 haides}, neither his flesh did see corruption.

AV Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
AV Re 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
AV Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

So are you saying Jesus left "the tree of life" in {G86 haides} ???

So are you saying Jesus left {G86 haides} in "the holy Jerusalem" ???

So are you saying that "the tree of life" and "the holy Jerusalem" are on earth somewhere ???

I need to know, do you believe that {G86 haides} is still in "the holy Jerusalem" ???

I need to know, Why GOD needs resurrection, when people are in "the holy Jerusalem" already, according to your statement("That is where paradise") to Bible facts and Jesus' statements ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Pr 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour [is] a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

AV Ro 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Here is Paul's version. Warning the self deceived of GOD's future judgments is not a lie.

You expressed my beliefs in your own free will from GOD, with your loving and truthful words of these. So we can understand each other's position properly.

Please detail each point of "the Arian heresy", that your opinion thinks, I am guilty of ???

Please detail each point of "the Judaizing jeresy"/"heresy", that your opinion thinks, I am guilty of ???

If this is a big list in your mind, then start with the biggest one first from each category, quoting Cut-N-Paste evidence to support your reasoning.

I made this as open as possible for you to express your evidence(s) to your reasons of your opinion.

Yours in Christ, Michael
Arian Heresy - Belief that the Son is a created being.

Judaizing Heresy - Trying to force believers under the Old Covenant.
 

John t

Super Member
The word " catholic " is an adjective.. The word " Roman " means pagan people.. ( they sacrificed the followers of the Messiah right ? )

You would be wise to look at definitions before you post inaccurate things. Depending upon how it is used it can be an adjective, or as a noun.
The word " Roman " means pagan people.

Please find the entry in a collegiate-level dictionary, and prove your thesis. Really, you will never find that in the Merriam Webster collegiate dictionary
 

rossh

Well-known member
You would be wise to look at definitions before you post inaccurate things. Depending upon how it is used it can be an adjective, or as a noun.


Please find the entry in a collegiate-level dictionary, and prove your thesis. Really, you will never find that in the Merriam Webster collegiate dictionary
Yes and, as I stated, it is an adjective as in of course RCC. The middle C describes the last C which is Church, so what kind of Church is it then, a Catholic Church...
You could be wiser to deal with your suppositions yourself.. Thank you for your post..
 

rossh

Well-known member
You would be wise to look at definitions before you post inaccurate things. Depending upon how it is used it can be an adjective, or as a noun.


Please find the entry in a collegiate-level dictionary, and prove your thesis. Really, you will never find that in the Merriam Webster collegiate dictionary
Of course not, they are all Romans and it is a huge conspiracy ..
The Lord Yeshua IS Jewish, not Roman.. everyone knows that ( well, they all should know that ).
 

John t

Super Member
This was the reason I replied as I did:

rossh said:
The word " Roman " means pagan people.

Not all Catholics are pagans; because some of them are believers. Therein your statement is false and offensive.
They are all members of an apostate church, meaning that the church once held true to Scripture, but do not do so today
 
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rossh

Well-known member
This was the reason I replied as I did:



Not all Catholics are pagans; because some of them are believers. Therein your statement is false and offensive.
They are all members of an apostate church, meaning that the church once held true to Scripture, but do not do so today
They can not be " believers " seeing as how they only believe in men who are under the name of the RCC.. Their Messiah has not yet died..
 

John t

Super Member
They can not be " believers " seeing as how they only believe in men who are under the name of the RCC.. Their Messiah has not yet died..

Your criteria for salvation is not the plan Jesus made:

John 3:
16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
Lexham English Bible.


English Standard Version Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ESV

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

ESV

There you have it. While it is easy to find more, here are 5 different verses from 5 different authors, EACH saying the same thing. None of the authors, and none of the verses agree with your point.

Not even Ellen would go as far as you have gone.
 
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rossh

Well-known member
Your criteria for salvation is not the plan Jesus made:

John 3:
16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
Lexham English Bible.


English Standard Version Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ESV

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

ESV

There you have it. While it is easy to find more, here are 5 different verses from 5 different authors, EACH saying the same thing. None of the authors, and none of the verses agree with your point.

Not Ellen would go as far as you have gone.
Listen lets get it straight, I am NOT a RC ? I never said that I am a Roman Catholic ? So then ,what " plan " has Yeshua got for us then ?
Now of course I believe in Him,, why would I confess Him alone as MY Lord and as MY Saviour and in public, if I did not believe in him,, seriously ?
 

John t

Super Member
Listen lets get it straight, I am NOT a RC ? I never said that I am a Roman Catholic ? So then ,what " plan " has Yeshua got for us then ?
Now of course I believe in Him,, why would I confess Him alone as MY Lord and as MY Saviour and in public, if I did not believe in him,, seriously ?

Your post came across as if you were a SDA, or as one who is not a born-again Christian.

If you claim to be a Bible-believing Christian, and post stuff as you did,.......

rossh said:
They can not be " believers " seeing as how they only believe in men who are under the name of the RCC.. Their Messiah has not yet died..

then it may be the case that you are attempting to hinder the posts of other Christians by creating contention among believers.

The mods take that very seriously by deleting posts, and perhaps suspending someone. If you want to debate God's plan of salvation, I recommend that you do it in the Apologetics forum.
 

rossh

Well-known member
Your post came across as if you were a SDA, or as one who is not a born-again Christian.

If you claim to be a Bible-believing Christian, and post stuff as you did,.......



then it may be the case that you are attempting to hinder the posts of other Christians by creating contention among believers.

The mods take that very seriously by deleting posts, and perhaps suspending someone. If you want to debate God's plan of salvation, I recommend that you do it in the Apologetics forum.
why would that be, did I preach Yeshua too much and too much about His Salvation and such ? A SDA, well I will not take that as an insult I guess you were thinking I was someone else.. Post as I did ? I thought that this is a serious Christian website ?
 

rossh

Well-known member
Your criteria for salvation is not the plan Jesus made:

John 3:
16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
Lexham English Bible.


English Standard Version Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ESV

Romans 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

ESV

There you have it. While it is easy to find more, here are 5 different verses from 5 different authors, EACH saying the same thing. None of the authors, and none of the verses agree with your point.

Not even Ellen would go as far as you have gone.
well, no mortal man could ever save us as we are all sinful by nature and this means that only a Son of God ie; Yeshua could save us and He has.
Does the Jewish Laws of sacrifices teach you things ,, The Lamb with no spot or blemish .The Firstborn ?

5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God.[b] 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.

( he ) with no Caps as would be for God Himself... and you quote good scriptures BUT this is not about that it is about confessing Yeshua as Lord and Saviour..
 

rossh

Well-known member
Your post came across as if you were a SDA, or as one who is not a born-again Christian.

If you claim to be a Bible-believing Christian, and post stuff as you did,.......



then it may be the case that you are attempting to hinder the posts of other Christians by creating contention among believers.

The mods take that very seriously by deleting posts, and perhaps suspending someone. If you want to debate God's plan of salvation, I recommend that you do it in the Apologetics forum.
well may be so, but the debate came up and I did not start that topic I am replying to other people's posts ??
 

John t

Super Member
( he ) with no Caps as would be for God Himself...

FYI

Capitalization and punctuation are inventions of 18th century English language, (perhaps others) There are no lower case letters Greek of the in the Hebrew or Greek of the New Testament. The Greek was written in all capitals without spaces so that it would look like this English sentence: MYDOGATEMYHOMEWORK

Therefore arguing about the upper or lower case is fruitless. Nothing can be proved, excepting that the translator made it so, but it is not the work of the original author of canon.
 

John t

Super Member
well may be so, but the debate came up and I did not start that topic I am replying to other people's posts ??

Most likely, that excuse will not cut it with the mods because you are debating Christians on the SDA forum and trying to justify breaking the rules by saying "He did it first". Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
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